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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#26 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

I hope they dont stop braodcasting thier SD stuff... Some of us DO NOT LIKE HD and dont want to pay for it!!

 

They still might do that but just disable any output besides 480i on the STB until you pay the extra HD fee.


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#27 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

Well, according to Directv's SVP for Space and Communications, that day may arrive as soon as 2016. At least that's what he said on two separate occasions in 2012. I don't think it would really happen that quickly, but maybe it won't be as far away as 2020 or beyond like some have suggested.

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2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

#28 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

I submit that it had a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Ku frequencies are mostly taken than it is a proximity issue.


The need for greater FEC at the more fade prone frequencies substantially negates any benefit of additional transponder bandwidth so HoTat2's argument may be, at least partially, a red herring.

And how is what I said in anyway a "red herring?"

 

As you suggest above the Ku frequencies are mostly taken so there is really no room for HD on the Ku band slots much less for simultaneous sharing the band with SD transmissions. So you either have to move up or down the spectrum as well as keeping it sufficiently close to 101w to eliminate LOS issues and reduce dish size requirements which are already increased due to the higher dish gain needed for the reception of weaker Ka band signals.

 

Now DIRECTV can't go down the spectrum to conduct DBS service in the commercial FSS band (11.7-12.2 Ghz) for obvious reasons of gross interference to commercial systems. And they can't use the extended Ku band (10.7-11.7 Ghz) without causing interference to DIRECTV LA subscribers which use that spectrum.

 

So DIRECTV needs to move up the spectrum to the Ka band which affords them use of two 500 Mhz sub-bands. Combine this with opposite polarization selectivity makes for 2 Ghz total effective bandwidth available.

 

Yes, as with most things, there is a trade-off in the increased signal attenuation at those higher frequencies, but the reason and advantages I outlined for the move to Ka is hardly a red herring.         


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#29 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

I agree;

 

And I also think Phil Goswitz made a mistake in those oft quoted statements and meant that all national SD would be converted to HDTV by 2016 using Ka band "CONUS" capacity, not "Local into Local" (or LiL) which makes no sense.

 

Either way though, it won't be consummated by 2016. No way.


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#30 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:50 PM

I think they will Start with moving all Sunday ticket and other sports subscriptions to Hi Definition only. Then maybe some Of the premium channels. Then go market by market. Then they can shut off sd. That should only take five years from When they start.

#31 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

 

The only way I think it would be "urgent" is if 4K was a much bigger hit than almost anyone thinks it will be.


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#32 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

Nah. That will take years to become a hit or regular stations. And even then I see HBO and such going to it some but not every channel. Not for many many years. And no over the air stations.

#33 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:58 PM

Now DIRECTV can't go down the spectrum to conduct DBS service in the commercial FSS band (11.7-12.2 Ghz) for obvious reasons of gross interference to commercial systems.


DirecTV can use any band that they can get FCC permission to use at a specific location. If the FSS band is available at a satellite slot or the holder of that slot wishes to lease to DirecTV they could use commercial FSS.
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#34 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

the reason HD is on Ka is just pure coincidence. .

Yep ka Spaceway 1 and 2 were meant to be used for broadband services. That fell through so Directv changed their plans and decided to use them for HD service..

The question I have is . Would our HD be coming off Ku satellites instead if that broadband Spaceway 1/2 flop didn't exist? I would say yes.

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#35 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:45 AM

Yep ka Spaceway 1 and 2 were meant to be used for broadband services. That fell through so Directv changed their plans and decided to use them for HD service..

The question I have is . Would our HD be coming off Ku satellites instead if that broadband Spaceway 1/2 flop didn't exist? I would say yes.

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But as I explained to harsh;

 

If true, then where exactly on the Ku band could DIRECTV have realistically placed HD service to both share with SD and have no LOS issues for subs across the nation?


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#36 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:52 AM

If DirecTV didn't have vast amounts of Ka bandwidth available, they would have had to do exactly what Dish Network did: lease space on FSS satellites, buy access to other slots and put satellites there, and perhaps even gone to a "2 arc" solution, because a single constellation with true CONUS coverage might not have been possible.

But, whether you think it was serendipity or planning, they did have a whole lot of Ka available, and that capacity was within 3 degrees of the slot from which every single DirecTV customer obtained the vast majority of their current programming. They showed it could be used for DTH service and that's how we get our HD today.
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#37 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:46 AM

But as I explained to harsh;

If true, then where exactly on the Ku band could DIRECTV have realistically placed HD service to both share with SD and have no LOS issues for subs across the nation?

The same as now launch new satellites or lease.
Dish seems to be making out ok with their KU.

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#38 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:58 AM

DirecTV can use any band that they can get FCC permission to use at a specific location. If the FSS band is available at a satellite slot or the holder of that slot wishes to lease to DirecTV they could use commercial FSS.

OK, sorry;

 

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.

 

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?       


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#39 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:08 AM

OK, sorry;

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

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#40 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:08 AM

The same as now launch new satellites or lease.
Dish seems to be making out ok with their KU.

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But I'd say not with the same advantages and convenience of the virtually single slot Ka/Ku dual band system as DianaC points out.

 

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.    


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#41 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:12 AM

But I'd say not with the same advantages and convenience of the virtually single slot Ka/Ku dual band system as DianaC points out.

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.

See now I think thats more Charlies cost saving measure more than a KU disadvantage. But when you haven't added many customers in the past 5 years you tend to not have a lot of money for expansion.

And when you get sued and lose to TiVo lawsuits that tends to take some out of the pot.

And remember Dish could have spent their money all on Western arc, If the Northeast coast states could have used the 129.

 

I don't think Directv would have had any of these issue had they went KU for everything.


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#42 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:15 AM

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

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If it's centrally located it is, as is 101,

 

Particularly so for subscribers in the NW and NE portions of the country.


Edited by HoTat2, 23 February 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#43 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:22 AM

If it's centrally located it is, as is 101,

 

Particularly so for subscribers in the NW and NE portions of the country.

Yes I agree,

But again Dish Networks Eastern Arc Has a Much better look angle when it comes to Trees , Your Talking 3-7 Degrees.  Makes a difference when it comes to Tree lines in the North East. 

 

But again it is what it is.

 

My Slimline is 35.5,

Dish 1000.4 is 42.2

 

Many Homes in Pocono Farms East and West, as Well as Pocono Country Place  ( Huge developments with Tree cutting restrictions)

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#44 OFFLINE   longrider

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:37 AM

Yes I agree,

But again Dish Networks Eastern Arc Has a Much better look angle when it comes to Trees , Your Talking 3-7 Degrees.  Makes a difference when it comes to Tree lines in the North East. 

 

But again it is what it is.

 

My Slimline is 35.5,

Dish 1000.4 is 42.2

 

Many Homes in Pocono Farms East and West, as Well as Pocono Country Place  ( Huge developments with Tree cutting restrictions)

Have thousands of failed Directv installs.

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites


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#45 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:40 AM

See now I think thats more Charlies cost saving measure more than a KU disadvantage. But when you haven't added many customers in the past 5 years you tend to not have a lot of money for expansion.

And when you get sued and lose to TiVo lawsuits that tends to take some out of the pot.

And remember Dish could have spent their money all on Western arc, If the Northeast coast sates could have used the 129.

 

I don't think Directv would have had any of these issue had the went KU for everything.

But even if true, where would Charlie expand to if he wished?

 

Each Ku DBS slot is allowed a max. of 32 transponders at 24 Mhz width per.

 

So even using 8-PSK modulation and MPEG-4 compression as Dish does for their HD programs greatly helps reduce bandwidth. Apparently it's still not sufficient and must use spatial compression of the images as well by down-converting native 1920 x 1080 HD programs to 1440 x 1080 resolution to reduce bit rates sufficiently to fit more channels per transponder without bit staving the individual programs in a transponder multiplex.      


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#46 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:44 AM

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites

+1


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#47 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

But even if true, where would Charlie expand to if he wished?

 

 

 

 

Thats what happends when your the 2nd company to Launch USSB service.  You miss out LOL!

 

The 129, seriously what country was he serving? :hair: 


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#48 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites

I agree.  But its still nice if all else fails.  Most of these developments don't even have cable.

 

Thats just my area, What about the rest of the country?

 

I'm not against dual arcs, As many Directv satellites that are crammed together in one spot, what would be the difference if they were spread out ?

 

What does Directv have, 8 Active satellites Between the 99 and 103 going for one more?

 

I think Dish only has 4 on Eastern arc and 4 on western arc?  I could be wrong?

 

I would think 6 orbital locations would bring more Space 192 TP   But would divide up the locals, maybe allowing more locals channels per market.


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#49 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:30 PM

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.


They don't. They allow FSS service on the FSS band. But DBS carriers can (and do) lease FSS band satellites to be used as part of their "DBS" systems. Just like DirecTV uses Ka band satellites within the legal limits for that service.
 

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?


If they could get the owners of the FSS satellites at 99,101 and/or 103 to lease them space they could go there. If they can't get the lease or a license then they will have to go somewhere else. DirecTV managed to get the licenses for Ka so they went there.

There is no mystical science that prevents HD from being transmitted from Ku FSS satellites - even if those satellites are in the same basic slot as a Ku DBS satellite. Both satellites can easily be received on one antenna less than a meter in diameter (OTARD friendly). No harmful interference.

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.


DISH downrezzes so they can fit eight or nine HD channels on each transponder. If they wanted to do full 1920x1080 HD on their DBS satellites they could. They just decided to go with more channels instead of less channels at higher resolution.
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#50 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:20 PM

The 129, seriously what country was he serving? :hair:


The continental US. 129 is a decent location for most of it ... not too far off from 119 and a high power DBS location (not FSS or Ka). 110-119-129 with 82 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) is a good arc. 101-110-119 isn't that far away with 46 DBS transponder frequencies (many used for spots). DISH had the 61.5 slot from the original allotments to fall back on (DISH's second orbital location - before using 110). And it was not hard to lease 72 from the Canadians (with DirecTV leaving that slot) and 77 from EchoStar's Mexican partners.
 

I think Dish only has 4 on Eastern arc and 4 on western arc?  I could be wrong?


It isn't the number of satellites but the licensed bandwidth they can use. It is easy for two or more DBS satellites to share a slot. Are two satellites serving 16 transponders each somehow better than one serving all 32?

DISH currently has 83 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) available or in use on Eastern Arc.
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