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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#21 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 08:48 AM

I submit that it had a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Ku frequencies are mostly taken than it is a proximity issue.It probably also has something to do with the fact that Hughes bailed on a couple of Ka satellites that it had commissioned (Spaceway 1 and Spaceway 2).The reason that they put HD and/or MPEG4 on Ka is because they didn't have a significant number of customers that needed to be upgraded to keep the same service whereas if they had tried to do that with SD, everyone would need new equipment.The need for greater FEC at the more fade prone frequencies substantially negates any benefit of additional transponder bandwidth so HoTat2's argument may be, at least partially, a red herring.

To be clear, the original purpose of the Spaceway satellites was to provide a satellite based internet service. This is why they used configurable transmission beams (phased arrays) so as to allow bandwidth to be dynamically reallocated as needed. However, the market for satellite broadband never really took off. So, when DirecTV was sold by Hughes the 2 Spaceway satellites were included in the deal. Their existence allowed DirecTV to launch large scale HD service far more quickly and cost effectively than trying to lease space and/or build and launch purpose built satellites (as Dish Network had to do). Their location, very close to the existing satellites at 101, also precluded almost any line of sight issues for existing customers wishing to upgrade to HD and allowed all English language customers to obtain service with a single relatively compact dish (at the time, Dish required 2 dishes for full service coverage).

I would hardly say that the increased FEC required for Ka "substantially" negates the benefit of Ka as a transmission medium. Not only are the transponders using wider channels, the higher frequency supports a higher bit rate, all other things being equal. For example, 8PSK encoding puts 3 bits into every radio cycle, so the more cycles per second, the more bits per second. Even with the same transponder band width, using Ka would provide a bit rate advantage, even with the higher FEC.

The main reason wider transponders are an advantage is that the more distinct video channels you can place on a single transponder, the greater the flexibility available to the statistical multiplexers. If we can only fit 4 channels on a transponder, the ability to steal bandwidth from one channel and give it to another (whose data load has spiked momentarily) is reduced versus a situation where I have 6 or 7 channels to borrow from. Ultimately, this allows more total channels to be carried in the same total bandwidth.

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#22 OFFLINE   Gofastr

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:28 AM

I don't know much about all this and how it all works but are there sd satellite's capable of transmitting mpeg4 channels and would they use them once everyone is converted to mpeg4. Also another question is out all the satellites Directv has including thier sd and hd, which one has the most bandwidth capacity?



#23 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:05 AM

 

I don't know much about all this and how it all works but are there sd satellite's capable of transmitting mpeg4 channels and would they use them once everyone is converted to mpeg4. Also another question is out all the satellites Directv has including thier sd and hd, which one has the most bandwidth capacity?

 

and what is your answer ?



#24 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:16 PM

They will at some point but not till it's cost effective which is still
Years away unfortunately.

 

Well, according to Directv's SVP for Space and Communications, that day may arrive as soon as 2016. At least that's what he said on two separate occasions in 2012. I don't think it would really happen that quickly, but maybe it won't be as far away as 2020 or beyond like some have suggested.

 

http://advanced-tele...ing-for-u-hdtv/

 

http://advanced-tele...12/10/01/37560/

 

He explained that DirecTV expected to convert its current standard-definition Ku-band signals to U-HDTV by 2016.

 

He added that by 2016 all of its standard-def transmissions would have converted to HDTV, and using its local-into-local Ka-Band capacity. He said with standard-definition broadcasting ceasing the broadcaster would have 1 gigahertz of freed-up satellite spectrum available for use by U-HDTV, to a potential 20 million homes.


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#25 OFFLINE   jdspencer

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:27 PM

I hope they dont stop braodcasting thier SD stuff... Some of us DO NOT LIKE HD and dont want to pay for it!!

May I ask why you don't like HD?

You probably didn't like color TV when it was first provided. :smoking:


Edited by jdspencer, 22 February 2014 - 12:28 PM.

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#26 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 12:34 PM

I hope they dont stop braodcasting thier SD stuff... Some of us DO NOT LIKE HD and dont want to pay for it!!

 

They still might do that but just disable any output besides 480i on the STB until you pay the extra HD fee.


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#27 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 01:33 PM

Well, according to Directv's SVP for Space and Communications, that day may arrive as soon as 2016. At least that's what he said on two separate occasions in 2012. I don't think it would really happen that quickly, but maybe it won't be as far away as 2020 or beyond like some have suggested.

http://advanced-tele...ing-for-u-hdtv/

http://advanced-tele...12/10/01/37560/


2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

#28 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:19 PM

I submit that it had a whole lot more to do with the fact that the Ku frequencies are mostly taken than it is a proximity issue.


The need for greater FEC at the more fade prone frequencies substantially negates any benefit of additional transponder bandwidth so HoTat2's argument may be, at least partially, a red herring.

And how is what I said in anyway a "red herring?"

 

As you suggest above the Ku frequencies are mostly taken so there is really no room for HD on the Ku band slots much less for simultaneous sharing the band with SD transmissions. So you either have to move up or down the spectrum as well as keeping it sufficiently close to 101w to eliminate LOS issues and reduce dish size requirements which are already increased due to the higher dish gain needed for the reception of weaker Ka band signals.

 

Now DIRECTV can't go down the spectrum to conduct DBS service in the commercial FSS band (11.7-12.2 Ghz) for obvious reasons of gross interference to commercial systems. And they can't use the extended Ku band (10.7-11.7 Ghz) without causing interference to DIRECTV LA subscribers which use that spectrum.

 

So DIRECTV needs to move up the spectrum to the Ka band which affords them use of two 500 Mhz sub-bands. Combine this with opposite polarization selectivity makes for 2 Ghz total effective bandwidth available.

 

Yes, as with most things, there is a trade-off in the increased signal attenuation at those higher frequencies, but the reason and advantages I outlined for the move to Ka is hardly a red herring.         


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#29 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:40 PM

2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

I agree;

 

And I also think Phil Goswitz made a mistake in those oft quoted statements and meant that all national SD would be converted to HDTV by 2016 using Ka band "CONUS" capacity, not "Local into Local" (or LiL) which makes no sense.

 

Either way though, it won't be consummated by 2016. No way.


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#30 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 02:50 PM

I think they will Start with moving all Sunday ticket and other sports subscriptions to Hi Definition only. Then maybe some Of the premium channels. Then go market by market. Then they can shut off sd. That should only take five years from When they start.

#31 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:33 PM

2016 is about the time I could see them begin the transition maybe but that transition will take years unless they treat it with some amazing urgency for some reason which I just don't see. I expect it to take years to change people's equipment.

 

The only way I think it would be "urgent" is if 4K was a much bigger hit than almost anyone thinks it will be.


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#32 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:25 PM

Nah. That will take years to become a hit or regular stations. And even then I see HBO and such going to it some but not every channel. Not for many many years. And no over the air stations.

#33 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 09:58 PM

Now DIRECTV can't go down the spectrum to conduct DBS service in the commercial FSS band (11.7-12.2 Ghz) for obvious reasons of gross interference to commercial systems.


DirecTV can use any band that they can get FCC permission to use at a specific location. If the FSS band is available at a satellite slot or the holder of that slot wishes to lease to DirecTV they could use commercial FSS.
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#34 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 07:52 AM

the reason HD is on Ka is just pure coincidence. .

Yep ka Spaceway 1 and 2 were meant to be used for broadband services. That fell through so Directv changed their plans and decided to use them for HD service..

The question I have is . Would our HD be coming off Ku satellites instead if that broadband Spaceway 1/2 flop didn't exist? I would say yes.

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#35 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:45 AM

Yep ka Spaceway 1 and 2 were meant to be used for broadband services. That fell through so Directv changed their plans and decided to use them for HD service..

The question I have is . Would our HD be coming off Ku satellites instead if that broadband Spaceway 1/2 flop didn't exist? I would say yes.

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But as I explained to harsh;

 

If true, then where exactly on the Ku band could DIRECTV have realistically placed HD service to both share with SD and have no LOS issues for subs across the nation?


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#36 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:52 AM

If DirecTV didn't have vast amounts of Ka bandwidth available, they would have had to do exactly what Dish Network did: lease space on FSS satellites, buy access to other slots and put satellites there, and perhaps even gone to a "2 arc" solution, because a single constellation with true CONUS coverage might not have been possible.

But, whether you think it was serendipity or planning, they did have a whole lot of Ka available, and that capacity was within 3 degrees of the slot from which every single DirecTV customer obtained the vast majority of their current programming. They showed it could be used for DTH service and that's how we get our HD today.
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#37 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:46 AM

But as I explained to harsh;

If true, then where exactly on the Ku band could DIRECTV have realistically placed HD service to both share with SD and have no LOS issues for subs across the nation?

The same as now launch new satellites or lease.
Dish seems to be making out ok with their KU.

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#38 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 10:58 AM

DirecTV can use any band that they can get FCC permission to use at a specific location. If the FSS band is available at a satellite slot or the holder of that slot wishes to lease to DirecTV they could use commercial FSS.

OK, sorry;

 

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.

 

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?       


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#39 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:08 AM

OK, sorry;

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

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#40 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:08 AM

The same as now launch new satellites or lease.
Dish seems to be making out ok with their KU.

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But I'd say not with the same advantages and convenience of the virtually single slot Ka/Ku dual band system as DianaC points out.

 

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.    


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