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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#41 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:12 AM

But I'd say not with the same advantages and convenience of the virtually single slot Ka/Ku dual band system as DianaC points out.

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.

See now I think thats more Charlies cost saving measure more than a KU disadvantage. But when you haven't added many customers in the past 5 years you tend to not have a lot of money for expansion.

And when you get sued and lose to TiVo lawsuits that tends to take some out of the pot.

And remember Dish could have spent their money all on Western arc, If the Northeast coast states could have used the 129.

 

I don't think Directv would have had any of these issue had they went KU for everything.


 

 

 


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#42 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:15 AM

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

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If it's centrally located it is, as is 101,

 

Particularly so for subscribers in the NW and NE portions of the country.


Edited by HoTat2, 23 February 2014 - 11:16 AM.

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#43 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:22 AM

If it's centrally located it is, as is 101,

 

Particularly so for subscribers in the NW and NE portions of the country.

Yes I agree,

But again Dish Networks Eastern Arc Has a Much better look angle when it comes to Trees , Your Talking 3-7 Degrees.  Makes a difference when it comes to Tree lines in the North East. 

 

But again it is what it is.

 

My Slimline is 35.5,

Dish 1000.4 is 42.2

 

Many Homes in Pocono Farms East and West, as Well as Pocono Country Place  ( Huge developments with Tree cutting restrictions)

Have thousands of failed Directv installs.


 

 

 


#44 OFFLINE   longrider

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:37 AM

Yes I agree,

But again Dish Networks Eastern Arc Has a Much better look angle when it comes to Trees , Your Talking 3-7 Degrees.  Makes a difference when it comes to Tree lines in the North East. 

 

But again it is what it is.

 

My Slimline is 35.5,

Dish 1000.4 is 42.2

 

Many Homes in Pocono Farms East and West, as Well as Pocono Country Place  ( Huge developments with Tree cutting restrictions)

Have thousands of failed Directv installs.

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites


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#45 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:40 AM

See now I think thats more Charlies cost saving measure more than a KU disadvantage. But when you haven't added many customers in the past 5 years you tend to not have a lot of money for expansion.

And when you get sued and lose to TiVo lawsuits that tends to take some out of the pot.

And remember Dish could have spent their money all on Western arc, If the Northeast coast sates could have used the 129.

 

I don't think Directv would have had any of these issue had the went KU for everything.

But even if true, where would Charlie expand to if he wished?

 

Each Ku DBS slot is allowed a max. of 32 transponders at 24 Mhz width per.

 

So even using 8-PSK modulation and MPEG-4 compression as Dish does for their HD programs greatly helps reduce bandwidth. Apparently it's still not sufficient and must use spatial compression of the images as well by down-converting native 1920 x 1080 HD programs to 1440 x 1080 resolution to reduce bit rates sufficiently to fit more channels per transponder without bit staving the individual programs in a transponder multiplex.      


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#46 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:44 AM

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites

+1


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#47 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:45 AM

But even if true, where would Charlie expand to if he wished?

 

 

 

 

Thats what happends when your the 2nd company to Launch USSB service.  You miss out LOL!

 

The 129, seriously what country was he serving? :hair: 


 

 

 


#48 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:51 AM

I see your point but somehow I think it is much better for the bottom line to give up a few thousand or even 10s of thousands customers than it would be to build, launch and support 2 sets of satellites

I agree.  But its still nice if all else fails.  Most of these developments don't even have cable.

 

Thats just my area, What about the rest of the country?

 

I'm not against dual arcs, As many Directv satellites that are crammed together in one spot, what would be the difference if they were spread out ?

 

What does Directv have, 8 Active satellites Between the 99 and 103 going for one more?

 

I think Dish only has 4 on Eastern arc and 4 on western arc?  I could be wrong?

 

I would think 6 orbital locations would bring more Space 192 TP   But would divide up the locals, maybe allowing more locals channels per market.


 

 

 


#49 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 12:30 PM

Wasn't aware the FCC (normally at least) permits high power DBS service on the 11.7-12.2 Ghz FSS band.


They don't. They allow FSS service on the FSS band. But DBS carriers can (and do) lease FSS band satellites to be used as part of their "DBS" systems. Just like DirecTV uses Ka band satellites within the legal limits for that service.
 

But even with that allowance, still where could DIRECTV get comparable service solely on the Ku band with the same advantages they have with the present Ka/Ku dual band system all conveniently clustered near a single slot around 101 this way as DianaC very well explains in her recent post?


If they could get the owners of the FSS satellites at 99,101 and/or 103 to lease them space they could go there. If they can't get the lease or a license then they will have to go somewhere else. DirecTV managed to get the licenses for Ka so they went there.

There is no mystical science that prevents HD from being transmitted from Ku FSS satellites - even if those satellites are in the same basic slot as a Ku DBS satellite. Both satellites can easily be received on one antenna less than a meter in diameter (OTARD friendly). No harmful interference.

In addition to not needing to resort to things like down-rezzing full HD programs to 1440 x 1080 to allow more channels to fit into the smaller 24 MHz wide transponders on Ku band as dish does.


DISH downrezzes so they can fit eight or nine HD channels on each transponder. If they wanted to do full 1920x1080 HD on their DBS satellites they could. They just decided to go with more channels instead of less channels at higher resolution.
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#50 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:20 PM

The 129, seriously what country was he serving? :hair:


The continental US. 129 is a decent location for most of it ... not too far off from 119 and a high power DBS location (not FSS or Ka). 110-119-129 with 82 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) is a good arc. 101-110-119 isn't that far away with 46 DBS transponder frequencies (many used for spots). DISH had the 61.5 slot from the original allotments to fall back on (DISH's second orbital location - before using 110). And it was not hard to lease 72 from the Canadians (with DirecTV leaving that slot) and 77 from EchoStar's Mexican partners.
 

I think Dish only has 4 on Eastern arc and 4 on western arc?  I could be wrong?


It isn't the number of satellites but the licensed bandwidth they can use. It is easy for two or more DBS satellites to share a slot. Are two satellites serving 16 transponders each somehow better than one serving all 32?

DISH currently has 83 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) available or in use on Eastern Arc.
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#51 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:37 PM

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

 

How could it not be? The bigger the spread the more chance that a given potential customer will have LOS issues to one of the satellites.

 

If Directv had a wider arc, instead of one direction with potential LOS issues, they'd have three. You triple the number of customers who won't subscribe. Or do you think they should replicate all content across two satellites, so they can add that small number of potential customers who have LOS issues to 99/101/103 but would be fine with satellites located elsewhere? Doing that would probably cost them hundreds of times more than what they made.


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#52 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

How could it not be? The bigger the spread the more chance that a given potential customer will have LOS issues to one of the satellites.

 

If Directv had a wider arc, instead of one direction with potential LOS issues, they'd have three. You triple the number of customers who won't subscribe. Or do you think they should replicate all content across two satellites, so they can add that small number of potential customers who have LOS issues to 99/101/103 but would be fine with satellites located elsewhere? Doing that would probably cost them hundreds of times more than what they made.

I can tell you as far as the 119 is not involved, there are few NLOS customers who can't have DirecTV in my area, and when customers who has LOS issues is because they have trees ALL around, they tend to live in a "forest".


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#53 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:18 PM

I can tell you as far as the 119 is not involved, there are few NLOS customers who can't have DirecTV in my area, and when customers who has LOS issues is because they have trees ALL around, they tend to live in a "forest".

Yep and most of the Northeastern part of the USA is forest and mountains. Where many suffer Los issues. Again having options is not all bad.

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#54 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

The continental US. 129 is a decent location for most of it ... not too far off from 119 and a high power DBS location (not FSS or Ka). 110-119-129 with 82 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) is a good arc. 101-110-119 isn't that far away with 46 DBS transponder frequencies (many used for spots). DISH had the 61.5 slot from the original allotments to fall back on (DISH's second orbital location - before using 110). And it was not hard to lease 72 from the Canadians (with DirecTV leaving that slot) and 77 from EchoStar's Mexican partners.


It isn't the number of satellites but the licensed bandwidth they can use. It is easy for two or more DBS satellites to share a slot. Are two satellites serving 16 transponders each somehow better than one serving all 32?

DISH currently has 83 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) available or in use on Eastern Arc.


Well you can make an argument that it's better to have two and have the stuff spread around so you can't lose everything if a sat fails.

#55 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:22 PM

As for what would DIRECTV have done without te space ways and bandwidth at 99 and 103....

How much would it have cost to replace everyone's recievers with Hi Definition boxes versus buy and building the six satelites plus at 99 and 103? Just a thought. ;)

There's always more than one way and usually more than two.

#56 ONLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:32 PM

As for what would DIRECTV have done without te space ways and bandwidth at 99 and 103....

How much would it have cost to replace everyone's recovers with Hi Definition boxes versus buy and building the six satelites plus at 99 and 103?

Not sure what your asking.
We where wondering what the plan would have been if Directv Never had the spaceway satellites. How would they have expanded their HD offering?
Remember the Spaceways were for Broadband internet.

And Directv did change customers boxes. H20 HR20 MPEG4.

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .

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#57 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

Not sure what your asking.
We where wondering what the plan would have been if Directv Never had the spaceway satellites. How would they have expanded their HD offering?
Remember the Spaceways were for Broadband internet.

And Directv did change customers boxes. H20 HR20 MPEG4.

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .

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I think you missed my point. I'm saying if they hadn't spent all the money in the satelites they could have replaced everyone's receiver and just replaced sd with Hi Definition and not run both at once. It would have been tight but I think they would have been able to almost do it.
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#58 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

Well you can make an argument that it's better to have two and have the stuff spread around so you can't lose everything if a sat fails.


Redundancy is good (for satellites) ... and there is an advantage to having two satellites share the load when it comes to power use on the satellite. But for day to day use multiple satellites serving the same license does not increase bandwidth.
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#59 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:08 PM

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .


If it were trivial I wonder why DirecTV or DISH have not started the process. Perhaps they are waiting for more voluntary upgrades and attrition to thin out the older receivers? The HD technology fee certainly doesn't help encourage voluntary upgrades. Perhaps DirecTV needs to get better at losing customers with SD and replacing them with customers with HD? :)
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#60 ONLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

Redundancy is good (for satellites) ... and there is an advantage to having two satellites share the load when it comes to power use on the satellite. But for day to day use multiple satellites serving the same license does not increase bandwidth.


Exactly.




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