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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#51 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:37 PM

Honestly I'm not so sure one single LOS is always a benifit.

 

How could it not be? The bigger the spread the more chance that a given potential customer will have LOS issues to one of the satellites.

 

If Directv had a wider arc, instead of one direction with potential LOS issues, they'd have three. You triple the number of customers who won't subscribe. Or do you think they should replicate all content across two satellites, so they can add that small number of potential customers who have LOS issues to 99/101/103 but would be fine with satellites located elsewhere? Doing that would probably cost them hundreds of times more than what they made.


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#52 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:56 PM

How could it not be? The bigger the spread the more chance that a given potential customer will have LOS issues to one of the satellites.

 

If Directv had a wider arc, instead of one direction with potential LOS issues, they'd have three. You triple the number of customers who won't subscribe. Or do you think they should replicate all content across two satellites, so they can add that small number of potential customers who have LOS issues to 99/101/103 but would be fine with satellites located elsewhere? Doing that would probably cost them hundreds of times more than what they made.

I can tell you as far as the 119 is not involved, there are few NLOS customers who can't have DirecTV in my area, and when customers who has LOS issues is because they have trees ALL around, they tend to live in a "forest".


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#53 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:18 PM

I can tell you as far as the 119 is not involved, there are few NLOS customers who can't have DirecTV in my area, and when customers who has LOS issues is because they have trees ALL around, they tend to live in a "forest".

Yep and most of the Northeastern part of the USA is forest and mountains. Where many suffer Los issues. Again having options is not all bad.

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#54 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:20 PM

The continental US. 129 is a decent location for most of it ... not too far off from 119 and a high power DBS location (not FSS or Ka). 110-119-129 with 82 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) is a good arc. 101-110-119 isn't that far away with 46 DBS transponder frequencies (many used for spots). DISH had the 61.5 slot from the original allotments to fall back on (DISH's second orbital location - before using 110). And it was not hard to lease 72 from the Canadians (with DirecTV leaving that slot) and 77 from EchoStar's Mexican partners.


It isn't the number of satellites but the licensed bandwidth they can use. It is easy for two or more DBS satellites to share a slot. Are two satellites serving 16 transponders each somehow better than one serving all 32?

DISH currently has 83 transponder frequencies (many used for spots) available or in use on Eastern Arc.


Well you can make an argument that it's better to have two and have the stuff spread around so you can't lose everything if a sat fails.

#55 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:22 PM

As for what would DIRECTV have done without te space ways and bandwidth at 99 and 103....

How much would it have cost to replace everyone's recievers with Hi Definition boxes versus buy and building the six satelites plus at 99 and 103? Just a thought. ;)

There's always more than one way and usually more than two.

#56 OFFLINE   damondlt

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:32 PM

As for what would DIRECTV have done without te space ways and bandwidth at 99 and 103....

How much would it have cost to replace everyone's recovers with Hi Definition boxes versus buy and building the six satelites plus at 99 and 103?

Not sure what your asking.
We where wondering what the plan would have been if Directv Never had the spaceway satellites. How would they have expanded their HD offering?
Remember the Spaceways were for Broadband internet.

And Directv did change customers boxes. H20 HR20 MPEG4.

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .

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#57 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 02:46 PM

Not sure what your asking.
We where wondering what the plan would have been if Directv Never had the spaceway satellites. How would they have expanded their HD offering?
Remember the Spaceways were for Broadband internet.

And Directv did change customers boxes. H20 HR20 MPEG4.

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .

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I think you missed my point. I'm saying if they hadn't spent all the money in the satelites they could have replaced everyone's receiver and just replaced sd with Hi Definition and not run both at once. It would have been tight but I think they would have been able to almost do it.
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#58 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:00 PM

Well you can make an argument that it's better to have two and have the stuff spread around so you can't lose everything if a sat fails.


Redundancy is good (for satellites) ... and there is an advantage to having two satellites share the load when it comes to power use on the satellite. But for day to day use multiple satellites serving the same license does not increase bandwidth.
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#59 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:08 PM

And anymore the complaints about switching out equipment cost too much is no longer valid. Equipment changes are so frequent with all providers anymore .


If it were trivial I wonder why DirecTV or DISH have not started the process. Perhaps they are waiting for more voluntary upgrades and attrition to thin out the older receivers? The HD technology fee certainly doesn't help encourage voluntary upgrades. Perhaps DirecTV needs to get better at losing customers with SD and replacing them with customers with HD? :)
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#60 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 03:27 PM

Redundancy is good (for satellites) ... and there is an advantage to having two satellites share the load when it comes to power use on the satellite. But for day to day use multiple satellites serving the same license does not increase bandwidth.


Exactly.

#61 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

If DirecTV didn't have vast amounts of Ka bandwidth available, they would have had to do exactly what Dish Network did: lease space on FSS satellites...

A lesson DISH learned from DIRECTV who continues to use 95W for their diminishing international programming offering.

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#62 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:52 PM

If DirecTV didn't have vast amounts of Ka bandwidth available, they would have had to do exactly what Dish Network did: lease space on FSS satellites...


A lesson DISH learned from DIRECTV who continues to use 95W for their diminishing international programming offering.

 
DISH still uses three FSS satellites ... 105 has internal feeds, 121 is used for business TV channels and 118 is used for internationals (including HD channels). 105 and 121 were the original "SuperDish" satellites (105 put into service in October 2003, 121 put into service in November 2003). Channels on 118 and 121 are part of the same system tables as their DBS satellite fleet.
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#63 OFFLINE   Dude111

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:08 AM

May I ask why you don't like HD?


Well I have always loved SD,this isnt a movie theater!! (I much love SD....HD is too big and doesnt look as good in my opinion)

#64 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:58 AM

Accept that you can get an Hi Definition tv in any size you can an sd set and I have to wonder if you dot like it because you've only seen tvs with the motion junk on it that I also hate. Hi Definition is so far superior though for resolution it's not even a competition. As long as it's shown without the "real motion" junk many tvs offer.

At least IMHO.

#65 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:56 AM

DISH still uses three FSS satellites ... 105 has internal feeds, 121 is used for business TV channels and 118 is used for internationals (including HD channels).

My point was that FSS was presented (negatively) as something that DISH "innovated" when DIRECTV actually went there quite a bit before and still uses today.

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#66 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:33 PM

As has been said, ANY digital information can be transmitted on ANY satellite.  Some frequency bands are, however, more advantageous than others for various types of data.  Since we're talking about DirecTV and Dish Network, let's limit our discussion to linear audio/video broadcast.

 

To date, four different bands have been used for A/V broadcasting: C band, Ku FSS band, Ku DBS band and Ka band (with a fifth, RDBS, coming soon).  Of these, C band is the most resistant to rain fade and other atmospheric interference.  Howevre, most C band satellite locations are already occupied, and the much lower frequency requires a much larger reflector on the receiving antenna to obtain adequate gain.  For these reasons, DTH use of C band has largely fallen out of favor.

 

Ku is most commonly used for DTH service in North America.  Ku FSS and Ku DBS share similar rain fade characteristics, but FSS service is generally powered by transpoinders with anywhere from 70% to 50% of the power of a Ku DBS transponder.  To compensate for the reduced power, the dish reflector must be somewhat larger for FSS than for a pure DBS service.  In the old days, Primestar was delivered from a Ku FSS satellite and used an oval dish, just under a meter wide.

 

DirecTV uses Ka for their HD service, and Ka is used in Europe and Asia to carry a wide variety of content.  Because of it's higher frequency (and therefore shorter wavelength) Ka is more susceptible to rainfade than Ku.  However, the shorter wavelength also means that a dish of a given size will provide more gain for Ka than for Ku, all else being equal.  With a modest increase in dish size, Ka can reach 99.9% reliability (the minimum target for DTH service). (Note however that even 99.9% relaibility means that service could be disrupted for up to about 9 hours a year.)

 

Each of these transmission mediums have advantages and disadvantages (dish size, rain fade sensitivity, availablity of licenses, etc.).  None is inherently better or worse than any other.  Dish went the all Ku route because they didn't have any available licenses of their own to use, and the capacity that was available was all Ku capacity.  The fact that DirecTV had not only the Ka licenses, but also 2 satellites that could use them (one ready to launch and the other far down the construction path), meant that Dish didn't have time to start building any new satellites...they needed the capacity right away.  So they licensed some, redeployed some of their existing satellites, and stayed competitive until they could get some new satellites in place.

 

It should also be noted that Echostar/Dish Network held Ka licenses as well at one point.  They lost them for failing to meet the FCC required milestones.  DirecTV would likely have lost theirs as well, if it were not for the fact that Hughes had started construction on the Spaceway satellites. 


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#67 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:36 PM

My point was that FSS was presented (negatively) as something that DISH "innovated" when DIRECTV actually went there quite a bit before and still uses today.

It was not meant as a negative satement, just a fact.  DirecTV happened to have Ka satellites and licenses.  Dish did not.  So, each company followed the path of least resistance to obtain the required capacity.  My point is actually that NEITHER approach is better or worse than the other.  It is just the way things worked out.


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#68 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:29 PM

My point was that FSS was presented (negatively) as something that DISH "innovated" when DIRECTV actually went there quite a bit before and still uses today.


Perhaps you need to check your dates. "Quite a bit before" for DirecTV US international service on 95W?
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#69 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:36 PM

Not much as DTV here

 


, and Ka is used in Europe and Asia to carry a wide variety of content. 

 

 


Edited by P Smith, 24 February 2014 - 06:36 PM.


#70 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:41 PM

True, Eutelsat is the only commercial Ka satellite operator in Europe, AFAIK. But my point is that Ka use is spreading.

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#71 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 09:54 AM

Perhaps you need to check your dates. "Quite a bit before" for DirecTV US international service on 95W?

I was wrong.

The Superdish debuted in November 2003 and DIRECTV turned up the WorldDirect service in November 2004 with a Vietnamese channel (SBTN) and a Korean channel (SBS).

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#72 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:16 AM

Ku is most commonly used for DTH service in North America.  Ku FSS and Ku DBS share similar rain fade characteristics, but FSS service is generally powered by transpoinders with anywhere from 70% to 50% of the power of a Ku DBS transponder.

The range is actually 20-50%

However, the shorter wavelength also means that a dish of a given size will provide more gain for Ka than for Ku, all else being equal.

In this case, all else is not equal as DIRECTV uses paired 130W amplifiers to send the signal with 260 watts of power.

Each of these transmission mediums have advantages and disadvantages (dish size, rain fade sensitivity, availablity of licenses, etc.).  None is inherently better or worse than any other.

Ka is easily the most expensive power-wise, suffers considerably more from rain fade and requires a dish nearly as large as FSS. Ka's advantages are is its availability and possibly its 2 degree spacing (that plays into the availability).

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#73 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 10:33 AM

It would be nice to see a formula to support the statement.

 

 

...  Because of it's higher frequency (and therefore shorter wavelength) Ka is more susceptible to rainfade than Ku.  However, the shorter wavelength also means that a dish of a given size will provide more gain for Ka than for Ku, all else being equal.  With a modest increase in dish size, Ka can reach 99.9% reliability (the minimum target for DTH service). (Note however that even 99.9% relaibility means that service could be disrupted for up to about 9 hours a year.)...for failing to meet the FCC required milestones. 
...

 


Edited by P Smith, 01 March 2014 - 10:34 AM.


#74 OFFLINE   MattWarner

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 09:09 PM

I have nothing technical to add to this... but I did want to say THANK YOU to all the posters... Fascinating conversation!


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#75 OFFLINE   Diana C

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Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:44 PM

P Smith, on 01 Mar 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:
It would be nice to see a formula to support the statement.

 

G = 10 log10 K(Pi*D/wl)2

Where G = Gain in dB
            K = the efficiency factor which is generally around 50% to 60%, i.e. 0.5 to 0.6
            D = the diameter of the parabolic reflector in meters
            wl = the wavelength of the signal in meters

So, as the wavelength gets smaller (which happens as the frequency rises) a dish of a given diameter and efficiency will provide increasing gain.

 

BTW: for those that want to do the calculation, DBS Ku has a wavelength of roughly 2.5cm, and Ka has a wavelength  of about 1.5cm.


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