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When Directv goes all mpeg4 will they still use 101,110 and 119?


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#101 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 22 March 2014 - 01:37 PM

You mean the old "8 bit Sampled Voice" format originally developed for Commodore-Amiga computers back in the '80s?

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#102 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 23 March 2014 - 09:15 PM

You'll know DIRECTV is on the move when they offer an MPEG4/8SVX/DVB-S2 box that has an RF modulator built in.

 

Yeah, that will be a pre-requisite, and will probably happen at the same time. Eventually there will be a new generation of boxes, who knows when. I would assume that's when they'll do it. Costs should have shifted enough that it'll be worth it to just give everyone an HD box instead of paying for development of a new SD box.



#103 OFFLINE   Dude111

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:02 AM

Why would they totally drop all standard sized programming?? (They are hurting themselves.... Having to use MUCH MORE BANDWIDTH to supply these larger views - Unless the BOX converts it to the larger size!!)

And alot of ppl DO NOT WANT IT!!!! - Standard Def IS FINE and always has been so why force those customers to see something THEY DONT WANT TO??


They will only shoot themselfs in the foot acting like this!

Edited by Dude111, 29 March 2014 - 04:03 AM.


#104 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 10:56 AM

Why would they totally drop all standard sized programming?? (They are hurting themselves.... Having to use MUCH MORE BANDWIDTH to supply these larger views - Unless the BOX converts it to the larger size!!)

And alot of ppl DO NOT WANT IT!!!! - Standard Def IS FINE and always has been so why force those customers to see something THEY DONT WANT TO??


They will only shoot themselfs in the foot acting like this!

they will use less bandwith as they will not have to simulcast the SD content, they will actually will gain baby
bandwidth by drooping SD all together


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#105 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:15 AM

they will use less bandwith as they will not have to simulcast the SD content, they will actually will gain baby
bandwidth by drooping SD all together


Being able to downconvert to SD at the box helps. It still leaves DirecTV with the task of replacing every receiver that is not capable of receiving the HD feeds. And changing out every dish that doesn't pick up the HD satellites. But once every SD customer can get the channels they subscribe to through HD downconvert the SDs can go.
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#106 OFFLINE   studechip

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:20 AM

IF they had started this when the Spaceway sats went live, they would be much closer to being able to disabling the sd feeds.



#107 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:33 PM

IF they had started this when the Spaceway sats went live, they would be much closer to being able to disabling the sd feeds.

 

You mean back when 100% of Directv's customer base was SD and MPEG2 only? What could they have "started"? Automatically doing HD for every new install? That would have cost them a ton of money. The fact they still do SD only installs shows it is still cheaper for them even today.

 

Dude111's post also demonstrates that as with the MPG transition, there will be that tiny vocal minority that will complain and complain when the day comes that Directv puts up messages on SD only equipment informing them that Directv is going HD only and they need to call Directv for a free upgrade. There will be people coming here to post how they don't want HD's 16:9 picture, don't have HD televisions, don't want to replace their fast SD receivers with slow HD receivers, etc.

 

Directv has a monthly churn rate of around 1.5%, so every year nearly 20% of Directv subscribers at the start of the year are no longer Directv subscribers at the end of the year. Since they are still (slowly) adding total subscribers, that means they do nearly 4 million "new" installs every year. Undoubtedly some of them already had Directv and play the provider hopping game to get the best deals, but when these customers return to Directv an installer still visits their house. Due to the "free Genie" promotions, there are surely some former SD customers who come back to Directv as HD customers, so the churn upgrades customers beyond SD only customers calling up and asking Directv to upgrade them.

 

That's 4 million customer visits a year, not including other visits for repairs/upgrades. Based on that, Directv can probably get people upgraded at a fairly decent clip when they finally decide to do so. In the meantime, customers are upgrading themselves and making the problem smaller every month. I wish Directv provided more detailed information about their customer mix in their investor calls, but I'm sure they'll begin doing so once they announce the start of the MPEG2 transition.


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#108 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:55 PM

You mean back when 100% of Directv's customer base was SD and MPEG2 only? What could they have "started"? Automatically doing HD for every new install? That would have cost them a ton of money. The fact they still do SD only installs shows it is still cheaper for them even today.

 

It's not like that. SD installs either didn't make the credit cut or were smart enough to avoid the Advanced Receiver Fee.

 

I install plenty of Genies and Clients with RF modulators.


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#109 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 12:56 PM

If every DirecTV customer would take their turn and leave DirecTV would turn over their 20.253 million subscribers in 5.59 years. But it seems that the deal chasers who go back and forth between providers are a particular subset. I think of them as the same 16 million customers of whom at any given time 8 million are waiting for their DirecTV contract to end so they can leave and the other 8 million are waiting for their present provider contract to end so they can come back. (DirecTV lost around 3.6 million subscribers each of the last two years and gained around 3.8 million over the past two years.)

The other 12 million subscribers are the problem. Some may volunteer to pay for an upgrade to HD equipment or take a special deal but there is a core group of "I've been with DirecTV forever" subscribers are not cycling out or getting their receivers and dishes replaced.

If DirecTV is serious about ending SD service or at least converting all service to MPEG4 something needs to be done for the core customers. But based on DirecTV's actions, still installing SD only equipment and still penalizing HD subscribers with a technology fee, I don't see such a conversion to be a priority.

Providing SD in MPEG4 is possible (see the PI channels on "HD" satellites). So the complaints from customers not wanting to downconvert 16x9 can be met by continuing to deliver the 4x3 feeds. DISH does this with their MPEG4 "Eastern Arc" service. SD in MPEG4 doesn't take up a lot of room on a satellite. But getting customers to change equipment when there is a financial incentive in place NOT to change equipment is an uphill battle.
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#110 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:24 PM

Providing SD in MPEG4 is possible (see the PI channels on "HD" satellites). So the complaints from customers not wanting to downconvert 16x9 can be met by continuing to deliver the 4x3 feeds. DISH does this with their MPEG4 "Eastern Arc" service. SD in MPEG4 doesn't take up a lot of room on a satellite. But getting customers to change equipment when there is a financial incentive in place NOT to change equipment is an uphill battle.

 

I believe Directv's plan is not to have MPEG4 HD and MPEG4 SD, but to have MPEG4 HD and have customers with SD TVs view it letterbox or vertically stretched.

 

More and more national channels are made available only in 16:9 HD. ESPN, for instance. It doesn't make sense to try to provide something to customers that Directv won't be able to get upstream for very much longer.


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#111 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:29 PM

It's not like that. SD installs either didn't make the credit cut or were smart enough to avoid the Advanced Receiver Fee.

 

I install plenty of Genies and Clients with RF modulators.

 

When you do a SD install, do you install the HD dish? SWM? If Directv was doing that, at least upgrading SD only customers would not require an installer to visit, but just ship them replacement receivers.

 

I can totally understand installing clients with an RF modulator (guest bedroom or workout room) but installing a Genie on a TV so old it doesn't even have RCA inputs? That seems crazy to me, given how cheap a 26" TV is (which is about as big a TV ever made that has only RF input) I can understand people being cheap, but if you can afford the $25 ARF you can surely drop the $150 the 26" HDTV costs.


Edited by slice1900, 29 March 2014 - 01:31 PM.

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#112 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:43 PM

As I have said many times, when they begin to offer certain sports packages like center ice in Hi Definition only that's the sign they have begun the slow process of killing off sd.

#113 OFFLINE   samrs

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 02:34 PM

When you do a SD install, do you install the HD dish? SWM? If Directv was doing that, at least upgrading SD only customers would not require an installer to visit, but just ship them replacement receivers.

 

I can totally understand installing clients with an RF modulator (guest bedroom or workout room) but installing a Genie on a TV so old it doesn't even have RCA inputs? That seems crazy to me, given how cheap a 26" TV is (which is about as big a TV ever made that has only RF input) I can understand people being cheap, but if you can afford the $25 ARF you can surely drop the $150 the 26" HDTV costs.

 

If they have a land line phone they are likely to get a Slimline with a SWiM LNB, otherwise they get whats on the workorder a round or triplesat dish. SWiM LNBs are expensive. The ones I use on SD installs are all used.

 

DirecTv's upfront offer is a Genie and Clients, folks that don't pay attention get sucked into the ARF. Those same folks won't replace anything till it breaks, like a 26" floor model Zenith with a crappy picture. Then when it breaks and they pick up an equal size model to sit on top of the old CRT they still use the RF modulator to hook it up. 


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#114 OFFLINE   JoeTheDragon

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Posted 29 March 2014 - 11:05 PM

As I have said many times, when they begin to offer certain sports packages like center ice in Hi Definition only that's the sign they have begun the slow process of killing off sd.

maybe stuff that is not RSN remaps going HD only but some sports bars still are SD only and have NFL ST.


I want CLTV / CLTV HD on direct tv.

#115 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 30 March 2014 - 12:16 AM

And again. When DIRECTV starts saying it will be only in Hi Definition this Coming season and they force everyone who wants it to go Hi Definition that will be the beginning.

Basically the same idea and process behind the move to all mpeg4 Hi Definition instead of mpeg2 Hi Definition. They started with the league passes.

Those bars who are still only sd will have to upgrade at that time.

This isn't going to happen till they feel the new Hi Definition boxes are cheap enough they can afford to get them to existing customers or free.

#116 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:09 AM

Why would they totally drop all standard sized programming??

DIRECTV has reduced the quality of SD to the point that it is approaching insufferable on HD displays, the government decreed standard television for seven years. Combine this with the business decision to put most (but not all) of the English language SD content on one orbital slot and there's no going back.

16x9 HD content, for years the "standard sized programming", can be readily downscaled to a better than SD channel image but the converse is not true. 16x9 SD content satisfies very few.

This is why they must drop all SD programming that has an HD counterpart.

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#117 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 08:15 AM

And again. When DIRECTV starts saying it will be only in Hi Definition this Coming season and they force everyone who wants it to go Hi Definition that will be the beginning.

Yet they drag their feet by continuing to install SD setups. They even offer free SD DVRs where they charge $199 for conventional HD DVRs! Hardly a sign of a company committed to advancing an agenda of HD conversion.

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#118 OFFLINE   HoTat2

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 10:20 AM

Yet they drag their feet by continuing to install SD setups. They even offer free SD DVRs where they charge $199 for conventional HD DVRs! Hardly a sign of a company committed to advancing an agenda of HD conversion.

Well you may consider it "foot-dragging" harsh;

 

But apparently the accountants and number crunchers at DIRECTV see it as less expensive to continue the current simultaneous Ka HD- Ka SD model for now.

 

If DIRECTV were truly interested in starting the transition in earnest to phase out Ku/MPEG-2 SD feeds, we should see more substantial evidence of it with things such as say mandating the installation HD capable receivers for all new SD installs and eliminate the D12 and R16. This way at least it's just a matter of returning to upgrade the ODU whenever the step-up to HD service is decided by the customer.

 

But continuing the distribution of SD only receivers as they are now is only going to make a transition that much more expensive, therefore I expect the current status quo to be around for many more years.as the cost of transition is still quite prohibitive I guess.   


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#119 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 01:34 PM

I think the evidence will be in the next generation of receivers. There was talk about a Lego system they use in Latin America here in the us. I'll bet it's significantly cheaper than the current h24 and HR24 etc. but time will tell.

#120 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 02:42 PM

If DIRECTV were truly interested in starting the transition in earnest to phase out Ku/MPEG-2 SD feeds, we should see more substantial evidence of it with things such as say mandating the installation HD capable receivers for all new SD installs and eliminate the D12 and R16. This way at least it's just a matter of returning to upgrade the ODU whenever the step-up to HD service is decided by the customer.

 

But continuing the distribution of SD only receivers as they are now is only going to make a transition that much more expensive, therefore I expect the current status quo to be around for many more years.as the cost of transition is still quite prohibitive I guess.   

 

I think they'd want to do it the other way around. Install SL3S/SL5S for everyone, but give SD only customers D12/R16s. That way when they do want to/are forced to upgrade to HD, Directv just ships them new receivers, and no installer visit is required.

 

I don't think distributing SD only receivers makes the transition more expensive than giving them HD receivers now. If they give a customer a SD receiver it essentially costs them nothing. They're fully depreciated and they've probably got warehouses full of them. I'll bet they stopped making new ones long ago (maybe an installer could comment on the newest manufacturing date seen for a D12?)

 

If they give that Sd customer a HD receiver, that's one more HD receiver they have to make. Even if he gets a used receiver, someone else who would have got that used receiver must get a new one that has to be built.


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#121 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:00 PM

Providing SD in MPEG4 is possible (see the PI channels on "HD" satellites). So the complaints from customers not wanting to downconvert 16x9 can be met by continuing to deliver the 4x3 feeds. DISH does this with their MPEG4 "Eastern Arc" service. SD in MPEG4 doesn't take up a lot of room on a satellite. But getting customers to change equipment when there is a financial incentive in place NOT to change equipment is an uphill battle.

Quite so on the disincentive!

 

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#122 OFFLINE   JosephB

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:24 PM

I think the evidence will be in the next generation of receivers. There was talk about a Lego system they use in Latin America here in the us. I'll bet it's significantly cheaper than the current h24 and HR24 etc. but time will tell.

 

I think the foundation for an all-MPEG4/Ka system comes with the next generation of receivers. The cost of just giving everyone an HD-capable box that will down convert can't be that much higher, if it is at all, than developing two lines of boxes again, especially factoring in costs over the life of the boxes.

 

Also at some point the savings in warehouse space and administrative costs to have two (or three) satellite dishes in inventory will push them to install SL3/SL5s for everyone regardless of service level.



#123 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:38 PM

DIRECTV has reduced the quality of SD to the point that it is approaching insufferable on HD displays, the government decreed standard television for seven years.


No such decree. Absolutely not. FCC standards for broadcast television include SD and other less than HD formats.

ATSC tuners must be able to tune the approved formats for OTA broadcasting, which includes SD. But there is absolutely no standard or regulation decreeing that TV be transmitted in HD or displayed in HD. Period.
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#124 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 03:44 PM

Quite so on the disincentive!
 
Heh: There will be complaints! "The picture is much clearer than before, but I don't like it....."


Some networks have decided to stretch their SD to fill a HD screen. The stretch is not always proportional and can include a crop causing a situation where it cannot be "unstretched" for a 4x3 display. Having the original 4x3 is preferable.
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#125 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 31 March 2014 - 07:56 PM

 install SL3/SL5s for everyone regardless of service level.

You are getting somewhere....


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