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Can DTV Please Give More Bandwidth to the Sundance Channel?


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#41 OFFLINE   cypherx

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:58 AM

what bitrate of the mux ? is it 1024QAM ?


I haven't seen 1024QAM on cable yet, nor receivers that can handle that. Maybe someday, who knows.

It's 256QAM 38.8 Mbps.
10:1 compression MPEG2 CBR.

I use my ClearQAM tuner when there is severe rain fade or I can watch a third show (that is avail in ClearQAM) when the HR24 is busy recording two shows.

The picture quality straight to the TV for SD is night and day difference (for the better) on an equivalent SD channel compared to DirecTV.

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My DirecTV SD WISHLIST: MTV Hits, MTV Jams, Music Choice, Youtoo TV

 

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#42 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:30 PM

so, it's roughly 3-4 Mbps per channel versus DTV's 1-2 Mbps per channels ... that's make the difference in PQ



#43 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:31 PM

I have a no clue where you get that from, I know no one who has replaced a TV with an Hi Definition one and simply because its a higher res have moved back further, even if its a larger TV.

And I am saying the quality of the detail in the Samsung 4k display that I have seen kicks Hi Definition's caboose I don't care how far away I sit. The detail of people in far off distances and buildings and so forth is incredible. The problem as usual will be if producers actually utilize the full ability of it. Frankly most Hi Definition could be a lot better than it is, but they don't use it to its fullest abilities anywhere really.

I think the point he was trying to make is that many people who upgrade from SD to HD sets sit way, way, way too far away from their HDTVs. So much so, that their eyes cannot possibly resolve the detail that the HDTV is currently trying to show them. My experience has been EXACTLY that with SD > HD upgrade customers in our area. It's not that they move back for the HDTV, it's that they have been sitting so far back with SD (so they don't see the scan lines), for so long, that they think that all they need to do is replace the SD with an HD TV and leave their sofa/chairs in the  exact same spot and they are doing fine. They aren't, but they don't know it. This is particularly true of many elder customers, at least in rural Iowa. 

 

Again, it's not that they have backed up, but rather, they haven't moved forward! I've dealt with hundreds of customers and the trend is obvious....sitting way too far back...not because anyone told them to move, but because no one told them to move forward to take advantage of what the display is actually capable of. To make matters even worse, I've had people say they can't see the difference between SD and HD, when it is being demonstrated to them on the spot. Now, that's some pretty bad discernment. Even when told what to look for (when the overall picture doesn't impress them), they often can't see it.

 

I'm not saying everyone is that indiscriminate, but I am saying a LOT of people who come from SD to HD in the beginning have no clue that they need to move forward. I did have someone today who needed my help setting things up get WOW'd by HDTV. He had been watching cable on channel 3 (RF MOD). I disconnected the cable setup and went directly to the HDTV and he was amazed, especially on the local hi-def channels. It made the trip worthwhile. The local cable company thought Channel 3 RF Mod resolution was just fine for these older folks. Fortunately, it wasn't and now they are having a great time.


Edited by hasan, 13 March 2014 - 05:38 PM.

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#44 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 05:59 PM

Why should they move forward? They put their TV where they want to have it, and sit where they feel comfortable. It may look better if they're sitting 8' from a 50" TV, but if they're 18' away and not getting the full benefit of HD, should they redecorate to allow moving closer?

 

Would you argue that people who buy 4K TVs need to move even closer, and closer yet again when the 4K market is saturated and TV makers start trying to push 8K? People either won't have enough room to get off their couch without bumping their TV, or they'll need a TV screen so large they'll need to raise their ceilings to make it fit!


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#45 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:05 PM

Why should they move forward? They put their TV where they want to have it, and sit where they feel comfortable. It may look better if they're sitting 8' from a 50" TV, but if they're 18' away and not getting the full benefit of HD, should they redecorate to allow moving closer?

 

Would you argue that people who buy 4K TVs need to move even closer, and closer yet again when the 4K market is saturated and TV makers start trying to push 8K? People either won't have enough room to get off their couch without bumping their TV, or they'll need a TV screen so large they'll need to raise their ceilings to make it fit!

oh ! yeah ! sure !

 

in reality 60-70-80" TV  will fit to any room; just mount on a wall ;)



#46 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 13 March 2014 - 06:19 PM

I think the point he was trying to make is that many people who upgrade from SD to HD sets sit way, way, way too far away from their HDTVs. So much so, that their eyes cannot possibly resolve the detail that the HDTV is currently trying to show them. My experience has been EXACTLY that with SD > HD upgrade customers in our area. It's not that they move back for the HDTV, it's that they have been sitting so far back with SD (so they don't see the scan lines), for so long, that they think that all they need to do is replace the SD with an HD TV and leave their sofa/chairs in the exact same spot and they are doing fine. They aren't, but they don't know it. This is particularly true of many elder customers, at least in rural Iowa.

Again, it's not that they have backed up, but rather, they haven't moved forward! I've dealt with hundreds of customers and the trend is obvious....sitting way too far back...not because anyone told them to move, but because no one told them to move forward to take advantage of what the display is actually capable of. To make matters even worse, I've had people say they can't see the difference between SD and HD, when it is being demonstrated to them on the spot. Now, that's some pretty bad discernment. Even when told what to look for (when the overall picture doesn't impress them), they often can't see it.

I'm not saying everyone is that indiscriminate, but I am saying a LOT of people who come from SD to HD in the beginning have no clue that they need to move forward. I did have someone today who needed my help setting things up get WOW'd by HDTV. He had been watching cable on channel 3 (RF MOD). I disconnected the cable setup and went directly to the HDTV and he was amazed, especially on the local hi-def channels. It made the trip worthwhile. The local cable company thought Channel 3 RF Mod resolution was just fine for these older folks. Fortunately, it wasn't and now they are having a great time.


I haven't sold tvs in a few years but all the plasma and LCD a Eric we sold where always bigger than their previous tv unless their was a space it had to fit in. So most people we sold to where if anything in essence moving forward.

#47 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 07:54 AM

Back on topic.  There is no doubt that D* has killed SD.  I also have FiOS, and their SD looks amazing compared to D*.

 

So - what can D* do about it?   

1.  Drop the SD channels they're paid a little for.  Like all those 24x7 infomercial channels.

 

I really doubt D* makes much money telecasting those endless televangelist stations that seem to clone each other.  I doubt they make much money on "The Gem Network" (or whatever it's called).

 

2.  Put the Sundance SD feed on an HD transponder.

 

3.  Start moving SD channels to the HD birds.  Essentially incentivize customers to upgrade.


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#48 OFFLINE   TheRatPatrol

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 11:24 AM

Back on topic.  There is no doubt that D* has killed SD.  I also have FiOS, and their SD looks amazing compared to D*.
 
So - what can D* do about it?   
1.  Drop the SD channels they're paid a little for.  Like all those 24x7 infomercial channels.
 
I really doubt D* makes much money telecasting those endless televangelist stations that seem to clone each other.  I doubt they make much money on "The Gem Network" (or whatever it's called).
 
2.  Put the Sundance SD feed on an HD transponder.
 
3.  Start moving SD channels to the HD birds.  Essentially incentivize customers to upgrade.


I have a better idea, why not just add the HD feeds?

#49 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

Back on topic.  There is no doubt that D* has killed SD.  I also have FiOS, and their SD looks amazing compared to D*.

 

So - what can D* do about it?   

1.  Drop the SD channels they're paid a little for.  Like all those 24x7 infomercial channels.

 

I really doubt D* makes much money telecasting those endless televangelist stations that seem to clone each other.  I doubt they make much money on "The Gem Network" (or whatever it's called).

 

2.  Put the Sundance SD feed on an HD transponder.

 

3.  Start moving SD channels to the HD birds.  Essentially incentivize customers to upgrade.

 

I don't think they can drop those information/educational/religious channels. They must devote 4% of their capacity to "public interest" channels as a condition of their FCC license, similar to how a regular TV station has to offer a certain percentage of their broadcast hours (though I think many now fill the requirement with subchannels) So stuff like CSPAN, NASA, and those religious channels. I doubt the infomercial/shopping channels count there, but they probably pay Directv enough to make it worth their while. Hypothetically speaking, if the "Gem network" put up a different phone number on the feed provided to Directv so they knew what orders were coming from Directv customers, they could carry such channels on a commission basis rather than for a set fee.

 

http://transition.fc...9-Satellite.pdf

 

The best hope for the Sundance channel in HD, unless they get enough people calling that they decide to do it earlier, is for the new satellites to launch. The first one should be operational less than a year from now, and they'll have a ton more capacity and would be able to provide Sundance in HD. That doesn't guarantee they do, but one would think that with all that new capacity they'll add the remaining local markets not available in HD, and add maybe not all but many many channels they currently don't have in HD that have an HD feed available.

 

I think they'll start moving SD channels to 99/103 MPEG4 at some point, and will probably begin with channels that are watched less so they can slowly push people off SD. But whenever that day is, it'll certainly be after the next two satellites are launched and operational, since they need capacity for all those channels first.


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#50 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 12:41 PM

1.  Drop the SD channels they're paid a little for.  Like all those 24x7 infomercial channels.

Any channel that they're paid to carry or must carry to satisfy FCC PI regulations is likely to be kept.

I really doubt D* makes much money telecasting those endless televangelist stations that seem to clone each other.  I doubt they make much money on "The Gem Network" (or whatever it's called).

While you can speculate all you want, what DIRECTV has actually done speaks volumes.

2.  Put the Sundance SD feed on an HD transponder.

They can't do this without screwing SD customers out of the ability to view the channel. That's not going to happen.

3.  Start moving SD channels to the HD birds.  Essentially incentivize customers to upgrade.

Same as above. There are a whole lot more SD customers than you care to imagine and moving their channels away isn't fair and it isn't going to make anyone happy; especially if they don't work to provide higher PQ.

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#51 OFFLINE   slice1900

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Posted 16 March 2014 - 01:28 PM

Same as above. There are a whole lot more SD customers than you care to imagine and moving their channels away isn't fair and it isn't going to make anyone happy; especially if they don't work to provide higher PQ.

 

They have a pretty good idea how many people watch a given SD channel on SD equipment versus HD equipment. When they decide to start migrating off SD, they'll probably do it piecemeal, and moving premium channels (so long as they aren't heavily watched on SD equipment like say HBO) would be a good start to the migration. People subscribing to premium channels are less likely to be choosing SD over HD for financial reasons.


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#52 OFFLINE   DJZack

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 01:24 PM

Watching Sundance In SD is horriable now


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Edited by DJZack, 20 March 2014 - 01:24 PM.


#53 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:55 PM

Why should they move forward? They put their TV where they want to have it, and sit where they feel comfortable. It may look better if they're sitting 8' from a 50" TV, but if they're 18' away and not getting the full benefit of HD, should they redecorate to allow moving closer?

 

Would you argue that people who buy 4K TVs need to move even closer, and closer yet again when the 4K market is saturated and TV makers start trying to push 8K? People either won't have enough room to get off their couch without bumping their TV, or they'll need a TV screen so large they'll need to raise their ceilings to make it fit!

 I am merely saying that to get the maximum benefit from an HD picture, one should not sit too far back, so much so that one's eyes cannot possibly resolve the detail that they just paid to see. I haven't seen the math on a 4K TV or at what point diminishing returns obtain. The issue isn't necessarily moving up or back, it is, however, sitting at a distance where one can derive maximum benefit from one's purchase. Anyone can sit anywhere they want by choice, it would be nice if it were an informed choice. (and in the cases I referred to in my post, they were not informed and experienced a dramatic improvement after moving closer to the display. The object is to help people get the most out of their investment, not just pander to the status quo in order to make a comfortable sale.

 

In the cases I was describing, they did NOT put the TV "where they wanted it", they put it where it had been with no thought to the consequences. After working through the issue with them, they changed their viewing distance and were quite happy about it. The assumption that people buying HDTVs know what best suits their needs is, in my experience, more often than not, wrong. A little considerate help goes a long way in satisfying customers.


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#54 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 02:56 PM

I haven't sold tvs in a few years but all the plasma and LCD a Eric we sold where always bigger than their previous tv unless their was a space it had to fit in. So most people we sold to where if anything in essence moving forward.

Yep, and that's just fine. I've had a LOT of people upgrade lately from 32" or smaller to 42 - 55 inch, and if the change was from SD, it posed the "distance" problem I was referring to. 


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