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DirecTV 4K UHD plans

DirecTV DTV 4k UHD

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#361 OFFLINE   GregLee

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Posted 02 August 2014 - 04:58 PM

Why does it seem that way?  I've seen several informal reports from people who claim to be able to easily distinguish 4k from 2k, and several have said that colors have a more solid appearance on the 4k displays.  Nothing to do with discerning individual pixels or picture details.

 

 

Having thought about this some more, I think I understand better the reports of improved color in 4k, and why seeing an improved picture with 4k does not have to do with whether you can see individual pixels.  In a sense, actually, the improvement comes because you can't discern the pixels.

 

As you all know, a color TV does not show all the colors we see on the screen directly, but depends on the perceptual merger of 3 RGB sub-pixels (or sometimes 4), and for a panel with 8 bit color depth, we get the perceptual effect of combining 2^8 values of the 3 sub-pixels, which gives (2^8)^3 = 2^24 colors.  (It's a little less, because not quite all the 2^8 values can be used for color.)  A way to improve the color is to use a panel with 10 or 12 bit color, which is expensive, however.

 

In the same screen area that a 2k TV has a single pixel, a 4k TV has four pixels, which gives it 4*3 = 12 RGB subpixels.  Since we can't discern the individual sub-pixels on a 2k set, of course we can't discern the still smaller sub-pixels on a 4k set, either, and the color we see at this spot on the screen will be a perceptual merger of the values given to the 12 sub-pixels.  The number of levels of red that can be shown with 4 red sub-pixels is 4 * 2^8 = 2^10 for an 8 bit panel.  So since we have more and smaller pixels, we get more colors, (2^10)^3, which is the number of different colors available on a 2k set that has a 10 bit panel.

 

The combining of several small pixels of varying colors to display additional intermediate shades, by dithering, is something that is already done by video cameras.


Edited by GregLee, 03 August 2014 - 06:02 PM.

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#362 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:25 AM

I'd think at this point it would be for 'future proofing' the production.

Since such a preponderance of new movies are based on or remakes of old themes or movies, I'm not convinced that is a goal.


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#363 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:31 AM

and in comcast land that may take 3-5 years for that hardware to come out.

As if the THR-22 came out the door at the early end of the projection and the HMC was ready by EOY 2006.


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#364 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:39 AM

 

In the same screen area that a 2k TV has a single pixel, a 4k TV has four pixels, which gives it 4*3 = 12 RGB subpixels.  Since we can't discern the individual sub-pixels on a 2k set, of course we can't discern the still smaller sub-pixels on a 4k set, either, and the color we see at this spot on the screen will be a perceptual merger of the values given to the 12 sub-pixels.  The number of different colors that can be shown is, accordingly, (2^8)^12 for an 8 bit panel.  So since we have more and smaller pixels, we get more colors.  Lots more.  (2^8)^12 = (2^32)^3, which is the number of different colors available on a 2k set that has a 32 bit panel.

This only matters if the processing hardware supports these extremes.  Real time encoding is going to be strained even if they make huge leaps above the current technology.  I'd bet that the providers will probably cut at least half of the theoretical capability out up front in the interest of fitting the stream within a reasonable bandwidth.


Edited by harsh, 03 August 2014 - 07:40 AM.

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#365 OFFLINE   dennisj00

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 12:14 PM

Since such a preponderance of new movies are based on or remakes of old themes or movies, I'm not convinced that is a goal.

Another case of "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK"


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#366 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 01:03 PM

Since such a preponderance of new movies are based on or remakes of old themes or movies, I'm not convinced that is a goal.


I guess don't really get what Hollywood likes to do just like you don't get directv half the time. Do you know how many millions of dollars Hollywood spends to keep and restore old prints every Year? They always want the best quality they can get when it makes any semblance of sense to do.

#367 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 05:52 PM

Do you know how many millions of dollars Hollywood spends to keep and restore old prints every Year?

 

Until they let college interns into the vaults that end up throwing out much of irreplaceable masters.



#368 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 03 August 2014 - 07:19 PM

I don't think I they let interns into the vaults hundreds of feet underground in Kansas or whichever state around there it is..

#369 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 05 August 2014 - 12:30 AM

I don't think I they let interns into the vaults hundreds of feet underground in Kansas or whichever state around there it is..

 

 

They were not always stored there. Check a bit into history and you will find that either UCLA (though it might have been USC) interns threw out many masters years ago - film and master tapes of TV and LPs.


Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 05 August 2014 - 12:31 AM.


#370 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 06 August 2014 - 09:39 PM

Yeah maybe ages ago when they where not realizing money could be made from all these additional avenues of vcr tapes, then dvd, then blu Ray, then 4k then.... Not to mention rerelease ins movies in theaters. Dvd is really what helped launch a massive amount of restorations of old prints for movies and some tv.
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#371 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 14 August 2014 - 12:15 AM

http://www.multichan...-website/383154

 

CableLabs Boots Up 4K Video Sharing Website Provides Access To 4K Fare Under The Creative Commons License8/13/2014 12:45 PM Eastern
cablelabs%204K%20%20450x345.jpg?itok=-KQ
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CableLabs' new 4K microsite will offer an expanding library of Ultra HD video for non-commercial testing and demonstrations

CableLabs has launched a 4K-focused microsite that provides access to Ultra HD/4K video clips to help platform developers, vendors, network operators and other video pros conduct tests with the emerging eye-popping format. 

 

CableLabs said it’s offering the content under the Creative Commons License, meaning it can be used freely for non-commercial testing, demonstrations and the general advancement of technology.

 

As vendors utilize content from the site to test new technology, CableLabs helps the industry get one step closer to standardizing 4K content and delivering to the home.

 

As of this writing, the site hosts seven videos, all shot with a Red Epic camera. The longest of the batch is a fireman-focused clip titled “Seconds That Count”  that runs 5 minutes and 22 seconds.

 

On the site, CableLabs has integrated an upload form for anyone who wants to share their 4K videos for the purpose of testing. Interested particiapnts are directed to provide a lower bite-rate HD file for preview purposes along with a 4K version.  CableLabs is accepting pre-transcoded versions using MPEG HEVC or AVC, or Apple ProRes version.  CableLabs will take on the task of transcoding the content into two high quality versions available for download on the website.

 

“Our intent is to make this a marquis website for vetting next-generation content that can be available to platform developers and network operators,” the site FAQ reads. “By sharing your video content through this site, you have the opportunity to gain unique connections directly with cable operators around the world.”

 

CableLabs notes that uploaded content might be used for demos at forums, shows, and conferences.

 

CableLabs is launching the site as the cable industry just begins to develop plans around 4K. Among major U.S. MSOs, Comcast plans to launch an Internet-based, on-demand Xfinity TV 4K app before the end of the year that will initially be available on new Samsung UHD. The MSO is also working with partners on a new generation of boxes for its X1 platform that uses HEVC and can decode native 4K signals.

 

On the competitive front, DirecTV president and CEO Mike White said on the company's second quarter earnings call that the satellite TV giant will be ready to deliver 4K video on an on-demand basis this year, and be set up to follow with live 4K streaming next year or by early 2016.

 

 

 

http://4k.cablelabs.com



#372 OFFLINE   gphvid

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 04:05 AM

The move to 4k will be even easier considering many movies are already shot in it. Natural attrition will take care of it. It was much more difficult to change everything to a totally new technology where as this is simply a newer version of the same. They won't need to build new studios and such as they did for Hi Definition. Hi Definition was a much much more massive undertaking.

And as for 1080p. I believe several channels are already done completely in 1080p and downgraded for distribution. NFL network and I think espn are among them but not positive about espn.

While movie and TV production might be in 4k now, it will be bandwidth that will be the issue for transmission.  It took some time before they got a decent codec for 2k transmission.  I expect 4k to take as long if not longer.  And I do not expect true 4k from alot of different sources for quite some time.



#373 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:23 AM

Past experience says it will take less and less time to get a good codec for 4k transmission, and in fact I read the other day someone (forgot who and where, think it was in Japan as usual) already figured out a low bandwidth way to broadcast full 4k...


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#374 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:35 AM

Past experience says it will take less and less time to get a good codec for 4k transmission, and in fact I read the other day someone (forgot who and where, think it was in Japan as usual) already figured out a low bandwidth way to broadcast full 4k...


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The more I look at the 4K TVs the more I want one.  Just give me enough content and I'll happily buy one.

 

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#375 OFFLINE   inkahauts

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Posted 30 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

I'd say wait a year I think pricing will come down even more and content will Increase significantly.


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#376 OFFLINE   Laxguy

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Posted 31 August 2014 - 01:43 PM

You're both in my camp! However, until my gorgeous Sammy plasma starts to falter, I'm most likely on the sidelines, rooting for 4k....


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#377 OFFLINE   jonesron

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Posted 23 October 2014 - 03:00 PM

The 4K Directv and cable companies provide won't resemble what you get on a 4K Blu Ray any more than the HD pictures you get from them resemble what you get from a Blu Ray today. So while you're right that you can't deliver Blu Ray quality 4K through the ATSC bit rate of 19.39 Mbps, that's irrelevant. They can deliver the same quality Netflix does today with its 4K, or have less quality and have subchannels. Just like many TV stations do today with HD.

 

Obviously the idea of 4K OTA broadcasts is many years away, if it ever happens, since the standards need to be completed/tested, the FCC has to approve it and come up with some scheme for its deployment, and TV stations need to make the investment necessary to broadcast it. It may never happen for broadcast, but if 4K really caught on the TV stations could deliver 4K video to those cable/satellite providers who receive it via fiber/co-lo, even if they only broadcast HD. That would allow the networks to provide 4K network programming without the TV stations needing to make the size of investment that would be required to actually broadcast 4K.

 

There's a big difference in HD quality from Blu Ray, to top quality HD broadcasts, to crap quality HD broadcasts. The same will be true for 4K. Oh, initially it'll all be pretty high quality stuff, because there will only be a couple 4K channels and they'll want to show it off in the best light possible to get more people to pay for 4K service. But if it starts to catch on as some people here believe/hope, it'll eventually get treated just like HD does now, and some channels will be allowed better quality and many will end up worse than good quality HD - just as quite a few "lesser" stations are laughably bit starved on HD today on many providers.

 

If we go through this whole game again in a decade with 8K, the same will be true then.

 

The ATSC has been working on the UHD broadcast standard for he past couple of years with a target to have a proposed standard completed in 2015.  Once it is ready then there will a need to conduct field tests, followed by any revisions to the proposed UHD standard to address issues and limitations uncovered by the field testing.  Once this is completed and there is a matured and validated proposal then there will need to be a transition plan developed and finally FCC approval.  The first routine commercial UHD broadcasts in the USA are not expected until at least 2020 and perhaps several years later.  The versions of UHD supported may very well include both 4K (2160p) and 8K (4320p) in a manner similar to allowing 720p, 1080i for HD broadcasts.  The current plan is HEVC will be used (i.e., h.265) for the UHD codec and perhaps a new more efficient modulation scheme (as compared to HD broadcasts) will also be introduced.  Similar UHD standards work is going in Europe and Japan.

 

As for Directv, they have already announced a 4K/UHD on demand service (i.e, internet delivered) for the end of this year using specially equipped UHD TVs (I.e., no dedicated Directv receiver involved) and the shareholder's report indicated a satellite delivered UHD service may be available by the end of 2015.  I assume the satellite UHD services will require a new generation of Directv UHD receivers  and DVRs that will be equipped with HDMI 2.0 and with HEVC decoders.  These may become available by this time next year.


Edited by jonesron, 23 October 2014 - 03:10 PM.

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#378 OFFLINE   Aridon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 01:03 AM

I'll get excited about 4k about 5 years after I start getting 1080p on the channels we watch.

#379 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:21 AM

As for Directv, they have already announced a 4K/UHD on demand service (i.e, internet delivered) for the end of this year using specially equipped UHD TVs (I.e., no dedicated Directv receiver involved) and the shareholder's report indicated a satellite delivered UHD service may be available by the end of 2015I assume the satellite UHD services will require a new generation of Directv UHD receivers  and DVRs that will be equipped with HDMI 2.0 and with HEVC decoders.  These may become available by this time next year.

Interesting considerations. Time will tell.


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#380 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:23 AM

This only matters if the processing hardware supports these extremes.  Real time encoding is going to be strained even if they make huge leaps above the current technology.  I'd bet that the providers will probably cut at least half of the theoretical capability out up front in the interest of fitting the stream within a reasonable bandwidth.

Fact is that hardware already exists outside the U.S. from the same manufacturers that can/will bring it here...for that matter...so does 8K...so it's neither theory nor "extreme" to realize 4K is closer than some folks think.  Even last year at CES...plenty was seen and more will come in January for 2015 new hardware releases (and not just UHDTVs).


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