Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

DirecTV 4K UHD plans

DirecTV DTV 4k UHD

  • Please log in to reply
1617 replies to this topic

#1601 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

Beerstalker

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,200 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2009

Posted Today, 12:50 PM

I wouldn't be so certain that the Type 1 flag will be set, especially at the beginning.

 

Remember Blu-Ray has a pretty similar thing, the Image Constraint Toke (ICT).  If that flag is set to on then Blu-Ray players are forced to downscale the content if the device is using any connection that isn't HDCP compatible (like component video).  However the ICT flag has not been put into use by any company as far as I know (I believe it has only been set on accident in a couple cases like one of the Resident Evil movies, and the Studio apologized and gave people refunds/a new disc).

 

So while TYPE 1can limit the Ultra HD Blu Ray players to only output if HDCP 2.2 is present, my guess is they will not enforce Type 1 in the beginning.  They will just make the players downscale if your only have earlier versions of HDCP.

 

Otherwise I think requiring this could kill the format before it starts.  I personally buy a lot of movies, I typically spend $100-200 a month on Blu-Rays.  If I can buy an Ultra HD Blu ray disc player and hook it up to my Panasonic 65VT60 plasma I will probably buy one at launch and stop buying Blu-Rays start buying Ultra HD Blu-rays instead.  Once players come down in price I will replace my other 3 blu-ray disc players with Ultra HD versions.  I most likely will not be replacing any of my TVs until one of them dies (especially the awesome 65VT60).  If I can't hook up an Ultra HD blu-ray player to my 65VT60, then I won't be buying one or buying any Ultra HD movies for quite a while.  I may even quit buying movies altogether (which would make my wife a lot happier).


Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
-by Jack Handy

...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#1602 OFFLINE   WestDC

WestDC

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,850 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2008

Posted Today, 01:03 PM

I agree.

 

4K crapped on itself a bit by having 10.2Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 1.4 and just now releasing 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2. They should have called the 18Gbps version something different, SPECIFICALLY in the name. Like 2.0a / 2.0b or whatever and require the manafacturers to CLEARLY indicate which one they had. Right now its even more confusing because the 18Gbps version is called "Level A" and the 10.2Gbps version is called "Level B" which is backwards. One would expect 2.0b to be better then 2.0a. They should have just done 2.0 / 2.1 IMO and avoided a lot of confusion. However, then it would have been the same issue. A "2.0" device would be useless and wouldn't be able to get real 4K, you would need a "2.1" device.

 

Even worse is that the TV makers are flat out hiding this information. I'm in the LG OLED forum over on AVS and its a $5500 / 55" TV and you still can't get a straight answer as to which version of HDMI it is.

 

I know one guy who bought a 4K TV back in Oct/Nov I think. I tried to explain to him that it wouldn't be able to get native 4K and he thought I was an idiot / lying to him / didn't know what I was talking about / didn't care. So he went and bought a 65" 4K TV. *Shrug*.

 

I honestly wonder what a person who spent $5K on a 4K TV will feel when he goes to plug in his shiny new UltraHD BluRay player this Xmas and finds a blue screen on his TV instead of an actual picture. Yikes. I know I would be pissed.

I agree - I wonder what will happen when I connect my (2011) onkyo AVR that' says it will upscale 4k -LOL!! as well as my 2013 Sony 1040 will upscale it as well -:) What should I expect ---------------NOTHING except to get out my checkbook and replace my old junk for NEW JUNK LOL!


"Let's Have Some Fun!"

SL-5, SWM-16, (2) HR22-100, (1) H21-200, (1) H20-100, (1) HR44-200, (1) CCK


#1603 OFFLINE   SledgeHammer

SledgeHammer

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,261 posts
Joined: Dec 28, 2007

Posted Today, 01:28 PM

So while TYPE 1can limit the Ultra HD Blu Ray players to only output if HDCP 2.2 is present, my guess is they will not enforce Type 1 in the beginning.  They will just make the players downscale if your only have earlier versions of HDCP.

 

 

Not impossible, but highly, highly unlikely. Content owners are not going to be too happy if 4K security is hacked. That is the #1 priority, not compatibility with 1080P sets that they don't even care about anymore to be honest with you. Its a 4K device, so they are worried about securing the 4K content. I'm sure it will be hacked at some point though.

 

Now, as you probably noticed, in 2015, most of the new TV models rolling out are 4K TVs. Today, Crutchfield lists 51 4K TV models and only 41 1080P TV models. You can't even really buy a DVD player anymore except maybe one or two $50 models at Walmart. BluRay... well, I'll be surprised if anybody continues to release high quality BluRay players. Maybe one of the boutique brands. But Denon? I think they'll keep producing the current BluRay players during the transition for another year or so, or perhaps release one more model. After that, if you want a new player, you'll have to buy a UltraHD BluRay and that means a 4K TV.

 

I don't know why you're surprised or think something different will happen. That's how it was with the SD -> HD transition.

 

People who wanted the coolest, newest sh** :) had to buy a HD TV. If you wanted a new VCR to work on your CRT TV with RCA inputs, you had to go to Walmart & Target and buy the $50 ones. Sony stopped making the $2000 S-VHS type models the second DVD came out.


Edited by SledgeHammer, Today, 01:33 PM.


#1604 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

Beerstalker

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,200 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2009

Posted Today, 02:00 PM

This is not how it happend with SD-HD transition.  Blu-ray players were and still are able to take blu-ray movies and downscale them to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.  I have a blu-ray player hooked up to a 720p plasma right now.  Before I had the plasma that blu-ray player was hooked up to a 27" SD CRT.

 

Blu ray players came with component video outputs for years until recently.  Many still come with composite video outputs, and analog audio.

 

Many came with 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs that were able to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS HDMA for people that had older AV Receivers that did not have HDMI.

 

They did this so people can update their players and movies first, and then replace their TVs more slowly over time (since TVs are a much larger expenditure and get replaced less often).

 

Making Ultra HD Blu Ray movies/players completely incompatible with any older TV is a horrible idea and would probably kill the format, which is going to have a hard enough time surviving as it is since so many people are already transitioning to digital delivery/streaming.


Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
-by Jack Handy

#1605 OFFLINE   SledgeHammer

SledgeHammer

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,261 posts
Joined: Dec 28, 2007

Posted Today, 02:44 PM

This is not how it happend with SD-HD transition.  Blu-ray players were and still are able to take blu-ray movies and downscale them to 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i.  I have a blu-ray player hooked up to a 720p plasma right now.  Before I had the plasma that blu-ray player was hooked up to a 27" SD CRT.

 

Blu ray players came with component video outputs for years until recently.  Many still come with composite video outputs, and analog audio.

 

Many came with 5.1 or 7.1 analog outputs that were able to decode Dolby TrueHD and DTS HDMA for people that had older AV Receivers that did not have HDMI.

 

They did this so people can update their players and movies first, and then replace their TVs more slowly over time (since TVs are a much larger expenditure and get replaced less often).

 

Making Ultra HD Blu Ray movies/players completely incompatible with any older TV is a horrible idea and would probably kill the format, which is going to have a hard enough time surviving as it is since so many people are already transitioning to digital delivery/streaming.

 

Correct. 1080P doesn't have a content restriction and you can do whatever you want with it. 4K has a content restriction. 1080P was allowed to be down converted. 4K is not allowed the same luxury.

 

Don't get me wrong though, I have *not* found any link that says 100% that Type 1 will be enforced from day 1.  That is just the common assumption.

 

The only piece of evidence we have right now is that 4K media players require HDCP 2.2. From a link I posted earlier, the Joey 4K has a single HDCP 2.2 output as well.

 

More evidence from some of the newer AVRs:

 

4K/60p and 3D video pass-through

  • This receiver requires a free upgrade to the HDMI circuit board (see above) to be HDCP 2.2-compliant. Without it, it will not support copy-protected 4K video content.

4K/60Hz Pass-Through: The receiver's HDMI inputs and HDMI outputs support 4K/60Hz Ultra-HD, 4:4:4 Pure Color, and 21:9 video pass-through, a feature of the latest HDMI 2.0 specification for Ultra-HD content. They also support 1080p (24 or 60Hz) for playback of high-definition content from Blu-ray, satellite/cable, and gaming devices.

 

Note: The AV receiver's HDMI 2.0 jacks do not support the latest HDCP 2.2 copyright protection for 4K ultra-HD content, so it will not support 4K content from satellite/cable providers, online video services, and Blu-ray disc which are copyright protected with HDCP 2.2.

 

4K Video Upconversion: The Denon AV receiver's sophisticated video processor provides upconversion from standard definition (480i/480p) and high definition (720p/1080i/1080p) sources to 4K Ultra HD (3840x2160 pixels), which lets you connect all your analog (composite/component) or digital (HDMI) video sources to the AVR-X7200W and then connect to your HDTV with just a single HDMI cable.

 

 

So I can appreciate and respect the use cases that you and Slice are presenting. I don't want you to think I'm calling them "dumb" or anything :). I do however think they are corner cases and that the hardware and content restrictions will not allow for that to happen. Nor do I think the manafacturers have any interest in supporting legacy stuff. They want to sell new models :).

 

If you think about it... there hasn't really been anything cool out in terms of features for like the last 10 yrs. Now 4K is here. Time to move on. 1080P has served us well. RIP buddy :).



#1606 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,720 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted Today, 02:55 PM

This may be more a function of down-converting hardware not being economically feasible at this time but I don't really see much point.

 

The iPhone 6 plus downconverts from its internal resolution (2304x1296 IIRC) to the display's native resolution of 1920x1080. For everything. Anything capable of handling 4K video will be able to downsample, it is a simple mathematical operation to average four pixels into one for 4K -> 1080p, much easier than what the 6 plus has to do.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1607 OFFLINE   Aridon

Aridon

    Mentor

  • Registered
  • 124 posts
Joined: Mar 12, 2007

Posted Today, 03:12 PM

This has to do with copy protection and not about capability to make the content accessible. If you want 4k it's going to need entirely new hardware and if you think content producers care that your first gen TV is incompatible then you're crazy. They know you'll buy a new one because you're a first mover and that set that is junk will go in the bedroom for late night Archer before bed.

Content producers learned much from the hd conversion they aren't going to make the same mistakes with protecting their content. Especially when everything requires a fresh start.

It's a marathon, not a race. When you rush out and buy bleeding edge don't be surprised when you get cut.

4k+ is certainly the future. Just no reason to buy it today.

Edited by Aridon, Today, 03:16 PM.


#1608 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,720 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted Today, 03:23 PM

I agree with SledgeHammer that the type 1 will probably be set and enforced from day one for 4K Blu Ray. The MPAA is ultra paranoid about copying. Really it would be better for consumers if it is enforced right away, because if they started enforcing it later it would piss a lot more people off. I agree this will probably kill the format, but 4K Blu Ray may not survive anyway - the market for 4K versions of movies that people already own in HD is minuscule. What's funny is that people pirating stuff don't care about high quality, given a choice between the HD and 4K version a pirate would probably prefer the HD version since it would download quicker and take up less space in their collection.

 

I hope that type 1 will not be set by default for cable/satellite programming. I see it as certain for movie channels like HBO - enforced by MPAA contracts - but is it going to be set for ESPN4K or CNN4K? I see no chance I will ever go 4K at my business if there is no way to downscale 4K to HDTVs. There's no way I'm doing a wholesale replacement of every TV all at once which is REQUIRED because Directv's 4K and HD channels will be out of sync, just like their HD and SD channels were.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21


#1609 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 20,214 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted Today, 04:20 PM

Many still come with composite video outputs, and analog audio.

I dare you to find one that puts out video on other than HDMI. Even the insanely expensive Oppos only feature audio options -- including XLR!

The heinously expensive Marantz models feature a second coaxial audio output and some wired remote control magic.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1610 OFFLINE   harsh

harsh

    Beware the Attack Basset

  • Registered
  • 20,214 posts
  • LocationSalem, OR
Joined: Jun 14, 2003

Posted Today, 04:24 PM

It's gotta come, right?

I heard the same thing about RCA's Capacitive Discharge Video disc titles, SACD and glasses-free 3D.

This is one wave you don't want to try to stay out in front of.

Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. -- JFK


#1611 OFFLINE   SledgeHammer

SledgeHammer

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,261 posts
Joined: Dec 28, 2007

Posted Today, 04:28 PM

I dare you to find one that puts out video on other than HDMI. Even the insanely expensive Oppos only feature audio options -- including XLR!

The heinously expensive Marantz models feature a second coaxial audio output and some wired remote control magic.

 

 

Yup. New models of pretty much everything today is HDMI only except for AVRs. They need to support legacy inputs.



#1612 OFFLINE   SledgeHammer

SledgeHammer

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,261 posts
Joined: Dec 28, 2007

Posted Today, 04:30 PM

I heard the same thing about RCA's Capacitive Discharge Video disc titles, SACD and glasses-free 3D.

This is one wave you don't want to try to stay out in front of.

 

Yup. When people ask me, I tell them a 4K *BASELINE* is 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2. Do not touch any 4K equipment below that baseline. The stuff coming down the pike "soon" is bells and whistles like HDR and wider color gamuts. They aren't show stoppers like 18Gbps HDMI 2.0 / HDCP 2.2 is.



#1613 OFFLINE   Drew2k

Drew2k

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 14,286 posts
Joined: Aug 16, 2006

Posted Today, 05:50 PM

Hope you took it as a joke, hence the smiling thingy.... :righton:

Yep. no worries!



#1614 OFFLINE   Beerstalker

Beerstalker

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,200 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2009

Posted Today, 05:59 PM

I dare you to find one that puts out video on other than HDMI. Even the insanely expensive Oppos only feature audio options -- including XLR!

The heinously expensive Marantz models feature a second coaxial audio output and some wired remote control magic.

You are right they don't anymore.  But, they just stopped offering them in late 2013 (early 2014) and they warned everyone about it before hand so it wasn't a surprise if you were paying attention.  From 2006 thru late 2013 pretty much every Blu-Ray player had component video out.  Those players all still work fine.

 

http://forum.blu-ray...ad.php?t=230112

 

Allowing 4K content to be downscaled and output as 1080p over older versions of HDMI will not increase the likelihood of people breaking HDCP2.2, and it won't increase piracy any more than it already is.  If a person knows how to break earlier versions of HDCP they can already create rips of blu-rays at 1080p, so why is it a big deal if they can create a 1080p rip from a Ultra HD blu-ray.  They are going to end up with the same quality rip.


Sometimes when I reflect back on all the beer I drink I feel ashamed. Then I look into the glass and think about the workers in the brewery and all of their hopes and dreams. If I didn’t drink this beer, they might be out of work and their dreams would be shattered. Then I say to myself, "It is better that I drink this beer and let their dreams come true than be selfish and worry about my liver."
-by Jack Handy

#1615 OFFLINE   SledgeHammer

SledgeHammer

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 1,261 posts
Joined: Dec 28, 2007

Posted Today, 06:35 PM

From 2006 thru late 2013 pretty much every Blu-Ray player had component video out.  Those players all still work fine.

 

And? I have a VCR that still works fine using RCA out :).

 

HDCP 1.x was flawed in many ways, so they want to get rid of it. That's really the bottom line. It was so broken that it required starting over. So yeah, sorry, no backwards compatibility for you :).

 

Aside from the DRM side of things, they simply want to sell you new stuff. They don't care about your old stuff or the quality of your rips. They don't want you to be able to rip at all. They didn't even want you to "rip" VHS.

 

In fact, HDCP 2.2 has an additional layer of security called a locality check (a timeout) that is going to make it much harder to analyze the protocol.

 

I'm sure it'll be cracked at some point (maybe), but at some point getting around the security becomes much more of a hassle then just walking away and doing it some other way or just buying it legit. I.e. if ripping a UltraHD BluRay for example takes 36 hrs and ties up your computer 100%, would you bother? I'm sure some people would, but it seems easier to just go and buy it at that point.


Edited by SledgeHammer, Today, 06:37 PM.


#1616 OFFLINE   doctor j

doctor j

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 1,501 posts
  • LocationBirmingham, Al.
Joined: Jun 14, 2006

Posted Today, 06:48 PM

I thought I'd take this discussion to a new topic.

 

For those of you that don't check gct's weekly channel update, I'd like to bring to your attention a tidbit I saw in studying this week's data!

 

At the end of an obscure ,usually meaningless, data .bin there was a new seemingly active 4K Test channel!!

 

"33Ch4KTest 9800 40971 13 136 1010 1012 15  4K Linear Test Channel 4K Linear Test Channel."

 

Don't know if CH 9800 is available or just seen by a few "special" cards but it's out there.

It's listed as Directv 10 TPN 13 vpid 1010 (a usually active designation)

If you have a working Directv 4K ready setup, might see what's on CH 9800. I don't have a 4K TV yet, SAD but TRUE, so I can't investigate

 

Feedback welcome

 

Doctor j
 


MFH-2 System : 2 Major Viewing Areas. 2 x HR20-700's & H21 in each area via E2/SWM-8. Hardwire gigabit switch to 30 mb/sec internet.


#1617 OFFLINE   Aridon

Aridon

    Mentor

  • Registered
  • 124 posts
Joined: Mar 12, 2007

Posted Today, 07:23 PM

Caddyshack 4k ppv

#1618 OFFLINE   slice1900

slice1900

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 3,720 posts
  • LocationIowa
Joined: Feb 14, 2013

Posted Today, 07:28 PM

I wondered if 4K might not start on Ka for the first few channels, given that they don't seem to be in any hurry to get LNBs that can receive RDBS out there. Looks like at least the first linear test channel is Ka - true "test" channel since it isn't labeled as to what the content is as is usually the case (i.e. Sundance HD Test) but it is the first step.


SL5, PI-6S, SA-6AL 3xSWM16, 21 H20-100, 1 H20-600, 7 H24-700/AM21






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: DirecTV, DTV, 4k, UHD

Protected By... spam firewall...And...