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What is news on Distant Networks?


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42 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 06:47 PM

I don't think you understand how and why spotbeams work.

Spotbeams serve two purposes...

1. Allows channels/frequencies to be used in multiple areas.
2. Restricts access.

#2 is really less of a "feature" than it is the reason for why #1 happens, and why Dish is using the spotbeams.

Whether or not they blocked access, IF all the LiLs were on conus transponders, that would be a LOT of bandwidth used up for the LiLs... if you add up all the DMAs and all the LiLs in those DMAs... you have a bunch of channels... and especially if they aren't available to anyone outside of the DMA it magnifies how useless it is to have them on conus transponders.

Using spotbeams means Dish can re-use the channels/frequencies in each spotbeam footprint. It basically allows them to do more with less.

I'm skipping the technical details in the interest of brevity.

They do have some LiLs on conus, for various reasons.. including sometimes the need to supplement where a DMA doesn't have a channel.

I frankly don't even understand why this is a big deal. Why do you want to view locals in an area from which you don't live? The network content will be the same... the only unique content would be the local content, which is less beneficial to you than local info in the area in which you live! Outside of sports... and there are usually other channels or subscriptions that give you access to out-of-market games... there's no real reason to "need" distant locals.

The RV user gets an exemption of sorts... because he can drive to another DMA, and call up and have his DMA switched... and in that case he needs that ability because he isn't getting distant locals, he is just relocating his home regularly!

The reason to view out of market channels is explained perfectly by Mwdxer. Thank you for the great explanation Mwdxer.


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Edited by SeaBeagle, 16 July 2014 - 09:43 PM.


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#22 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 07:38 PM

Sometimes I like to answer the thread titles instead of the thread ... especially when the thread drifts.

What is news on Distant Networks? There is none.

What is the chance that Distant Networks, defined as "any station I want to watch from anywhere in the country despite the availability of a local affiliate" will ever be available on DISH (or DirecTV)? None.

What is the chance that DISH will offer a Distant Network choice on the same terms as DirecTV? None.

What is the chance that DISH will offer Distant Networks (as defined by law) to certified RV subscribers? Possible. But I would not hold my breath.
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#23 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 08:15 PM

The reason to view out of market channels is explained perfectly by KyL416. Thank you for the great explanation KyL416.


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Maybe you read a different post than I did... KyL416's post, to me, seemed to be one describing why out of market channels were not a desirable thing.

 

Meanwhile... I love the flip side of this discussion that some seem to forget.  The only reason there might be some "distant" locals that you want to view is because they are locals to that market.  Your "distant" is someone else's locals... and if the local markets go away, we wouldn't have "distants" anymore... and would just have networks.

 

So... the locals exist because they are locals... if they were available nationally, then they would be competing in a different arena.


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#24 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:41 PM

Maybe you read a different post than I did... KyL416's post, to me, seemed to be one describing why out of market channels were not a desirable thing.

Meanwhile... I love the flip side of this discussion that some seem to forget. The only reason there might be some "distant" locals that you want to view is because they are locals to that market. Your "distant" is someone else's locals... and if the local markets go away, we wouldn't have "distants" anymore... and would just have networks.

So... the locals exist because they are locals... if they were available nationally, then they would be competing in a different arena.

This is what Mwdxer in post 18 wrote.

"Why would anyone want to view different DMA's? For me there are several reasons. One is the local news. I am a news fan and I like watching local news out of many DMAs. I am able to do that with streaming as most markets uplink their news and many are on the Roku. If there is a big news story out of any area, often a person can get more on the story by tuning in to the local station in that DMA. I have done that of late watching Isreali TV. They have a English language 24/7 news service much like CNN. It has been amazing watching the fight between Isreal and Hamas. I have never seen this kind of coverage on US TV, even CNN. A second reason would be to get those markets where Dish does uplink METV, THIS, or Antenna TV, like Anchorage AK. True, the network programmibng would be the same in most cases, but time shifting is nice. For years the local cable system carried both NBC & ABC stations from Portland and Seattle and like KING 5 out of Seattle runs their NBC news at 6 PM and KGW 8 Portland runs theirs at 5:30 PM. With hard drives and the like, and more than one tuner, the time shifting issue is not as important. I love the Roku as more and more TV stations nationwide is offering their apt to view the news and many stations you can watch of demand.

Patrick"


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Edited by SeaBeagle, 16 July 2014 - 09:44 PM.


#25 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 09:45 PM

Maybe you read a different post than I did... KyL416's post, to me, seemed to be one describing why out of market channels were not a desirable thing.

Meanwhile... I love the flip side of this discussion that some seem to forget. The only reason there might be some "distant" locals that you want to view is because they are locals to that market. Your "distant" is someone else's locals... and if the local markets go away, we wouldn't have "distants" anymore... and would just have networks.

So... the locals exist because they are locals... if they were available nationally, then they would be competing in a different arena.


You are right. I meant Mwdxer.


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#26 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 July 2014 - 11:39 PM

A second reason would be to get those markets where Dish does uplink METV, THIS, or Antenna TV, like Anchorage AK.


Those networks do not qualify as distants. You are looking for a greater rewrite of the law to be able to get any station from any market instead of your market's station plus any major networks not transmitting in your market.


With hard drives and the like, and more than one tuner, the time shifting issue is not as important.


About 79.9% of the US population is in the Eastern or Central time zones. Distants would not provide early bird viewing. Distants may help for missed programs if one could watch the west coast feeds. With the Hopper design of recording all four networks each primetime on one tuner (if PTAT enabled) multiple recording isn't hard - but there are times I would have liked to had a second chance. For example when the signal is blocked by severe weather or the station interrupts or fails to air a program due to an alternate program or weather event.

I doubt if the law will change to allow any expansion of distants. The trend is to cut back on the ability to deliver the channels. There are other tweeks that are needed ... primarily to provide parity between satellite and cable laws ... but if history repeats out of market stations will be harder to get, not easier.
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#27 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:08 AM

The reason is when having distant networks the New York local benefit me in Hawaii, and time slots for my favorite shows were perfect. I could watch wheel of fortune at 2 instead of 7pm, I could watch my sitcoms at 12pm instead 8pm, and I could watch saturday night live at 6pm instead of 11pm. I didn't need to stay up late to watch tv shows/news.

This is precisely why DVRs were invented.

Watching TV-MA programming in the dinner hour is exactly what the FCC is trying to avoid.

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#28 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 08:10 AM

Deactivate those spot beams. Look at KTLA WPIX KWGN WSBK WWOR if those can be received so can the other stations be offered nationally.

What of those that want to watch different stations? Must they get over it?

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#29 OFFLINE   mwdxer

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Posted 17 July 2014 - 11:03 PM

I wish the U.S. had the laws like in Canada, where satellite services carry stations from acrosss the country. Shaw carries stations from Victoria BC to St. Johns NF and also stations from Seattle, Spokane, and Detroit. I guess the stations up there do not have the power they do here to keep viewers from watching out of market DMAs.  I just wonder how lomng Dish will continue to sell the Super Stations? As far as I know, they are the only carrier that still has them. Direct dropped them years ago and I do not know of cable companies that carry them. The only exception is WGN.I will sub to the Super Stations as long as Dish has them. I have watched them since the beginning going back to 1986 when they became available with the big dish. I would hate to lose them, but we may in time. Who knows if the licensing will be renued next time.

 

Patrick



#30 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 02:13 AM

The difference is in Canada, the networks own most of their affiliates and the network programs the schedule 24/7 outside of local news. They don't have to deal with different syndicated rights and competing ownership groups that are affiliated with different networks that vary from market to market. It's kind of the same here, the networks that own most of their affiliates with a uniform schedule like Univision, Telemundo, Ion and TBN have national and/or time shifting feeds available.

As for US networks, in Canada there's a thing called SimSub where if a Canadian channel is airing the show at the same time, you see the Canadian network. (i.e. if someone in Canada were to turn on Late Night with Seth on the Seattle or Spokane NBC station right now, they would see CTV's broadcast and not NBC's broadcast, if they were to turn on Craig on CBS they would see Omni TV's broadcast) In order to make sure this happens as often as possible, they do some creative scheduling where stations like CTV and CTV Two air shows at alternate times to match the various timeslots the US stations that the CRTC allows to be carried in Canada air them. (i.e CTV Two airs Ellen at 10am and CTV airs it at 4pm)

Edited by KyL416, 18 July 2014 - 03:14 AM.


#31 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 04:40 AM

The only exception is WGN.


WGN America is not a superstation. They are a normal cable network. Superstations are retransmissions of a broadcast station ... not a special feed created by a broadcaster for satellite transmission. WGN America ceased being a superstation years ago when they started providing a national feed to satellite separate from WGN 9 Chicago.

 

As for US networks, in Canada there's a thing called SimSub where if a Canadian channel is airing the show at the same time, you see the Canadian network.


That sounds like a good idea. The US has laws that lead to syndicated programs being blacked out if another station holds the rights to the program in that community. Replacing the "infringing" feed with the feed from the station that has the rights would fix the "problem" without making the customer change to the channel with the rights.
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#32 OFFLINE   mwdxer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 12:08 AM

Too bad the other so called Super Stations have the same set up as WGN and TBS. I am afraid we may lose them in time as Dish is no longer selling them.



#33 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 04:40 AM

Too bad the other so called Super Stations have the same set up as WGN and TBS. I am afraid we may lose them in time as Dish is no longer selling them.


The remaining superstations do not have the same set up as WGN and TBS. WGN and TBS have feeds that they provide to cable and satellite companies. The WGN America feed we see nationally on channel 239 is not transmitted over the air in Chicago. TBS doesn't have a local broadcast station. (WTBS-LD Atlanta is a Spanish language station not related to the TBS cable channel.) DISH has contracts to carry WGN America and TBS. They negotiate with the channel's owners for carriage rights.

The remaining superstations (233 KTLA, 234 WPIX, 235 KWGN, 236 WSBK, 238 WWOR) are identical to the over the air broadcast of those stations in each city. DISH does not contract with those stations for carriage ... they pay for carriage through a statutory copyright fee paid to the copyright holders (not the stations).

(Distant network stations are also carried at a statutory rate paid to the copyright holders, not the stations.)
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#34 OFFLINE   joetex

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 02:55 PM

Sure miss the distants that we received from Dish and then through AAD. Roku somewhat compensates for the loss of the out of town news which we enjoyed. If nothing else, watching news from other parts of the country helps sharpen our focus concerning where we would consider retiring to. Can't help but think that for the right price, the national broadcasters would consider allowing access to this kind of programming via Dish considering that it has such a presence on Roku.


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#35 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:30 PM

What of those that want to watch different stations? Must they get over it?


Those peeps can look at many stations from all over the country.


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#36 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:32 PM

I wish the U.S. had the laws like in Canada, where satellite services carry stations from acrosss the country. Shaw carries stations from Victoria BC to St. Johns NF and also stations from Seattle, Spokane, and Detroit. I guess the stations up there do not have the power they do here to keep viewers from watching out of market DMAs. I just wonder how lomng Dish will continue to sell the Super Stations? As far as I know, they are the only carrier that still has them. Direct dropped them years ago and I do not know of cable companies that carry them. The only exception is WGN.I will sub to the Super Stations as long as Dish has them. I have watched them since the beginning going back to 1986 when they became available with the big dish. I would hate to lose them, but we may in time. Who knows if the licensing will be renued next time.

Patrick


That is because Canada does not have those idiotic judges that do not believe in the freedom to watch what we want.


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#37 OFFLINE   SeaBeagle

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 07:39 PM

Sure miss the distants that we received from Dish and then through AAD. Roku somewhat compensates for the loss of the out of town news which we enjoyed. If nothing else, watching news from other parts of the country helps sharpen our focus concerning where we would consider retiring to. Can't help but think that for the right price, the national broadcasters would consider allowing access to this kind of programming via Dish considering that it has such a presence on Roku.


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All American Direct should stayed in business and offered any local market available to anyone who wants to view these markets no matter where they live.

ROKU will never compare to live network TV stations. Too much recorded things. 85 percent of the time all that is shown is some graphic and some words like "We will be right back."




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#38 OFFLINE   mwdxer

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:48 PM

The Roku is not a direct substitute for live network channels, but we still have access to the news the stations run. It better than nothing and they are free.



#39 OFFLINE   KyL416

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 08:48 PM

That is because Canada does not have those idiotic judges that do not believe in the freedom to watch what we want.

You clearly know nothing about Canadian TV laws, it is MUCH more restrictive than you think, it's not like the FCC where only OTA television stations are regulated. Even cable channels need a license from the CRTC and they regulate EVERYTHING, from what channels can be offered, the formats of said channels, how much Canadian content those channels must air, what channels every provider must carry, which channels can only be offered in certain packages among other things.

The CRTC only allows a select list of US markets to be carried (Boston, Buffalo, Burlington, Detroit, Erie, Minneapolis, Rochester, Seattle, Spokane, Toledo). Most providers only carry one of these for east/west (Bell Satellite only carries Boston and Seattle, Shaw Direct only carries Detroit, Seattle and Spokane along with Fox Rochester instead of Detroit and PBS Buffalo), while cable providers only carry the one closest to them. (i.e. Toronto cable providers have Buffalo, Montreal has Burlington, the Maritimes have Boston, etc) You also don't get every Canadian feed, most cable providers only offer one feed they choose per timezone.

You do NOT get the US networks in the clear, any time a Canadian channel is airing the show the US feed is replaced with a Canadian feed. Just look at the annual "Why can't you see the SuperBowl Commercials?" articles that spring up every January or the complaints on Canadian media forums since while stations carry US sporting events that replace the US feeds, they skip out on the US in studio segments for their own in studio segments and promos.

It is a completely different model up there where the network owns and programs the stations 24/7 with the only difference being local news. In the US we have ownership caps to prevent one company from owning every affiliate of a major network and network hours are limited to certain times of the day and the rest is syndicated to various competing station groups. If you haven't noticed in the US it's only the stations that have a similar setup with common ownership and uniform scheduling that allow national and/or timeshifting feeds (Univison, Telemundo, Ion, TBN)
 

All American Direct should stayed in business and offered any local market available to anyone who wants to view these markets no matter where they live.

That was NEVER the purpose of All American Direct, I don't know how many times this needs to be said, DNS is NOT a service to give people any station they want, it's a service to give people access to network television who can't get it otherwise either because their market isn't carried, their market doesn't have an affiliate of that network, line of site issues, etc. If they did try that they would have been stripped of their permission to offer DNS service like Dish was back in 2006 for giving it to people who didn't qualify. All they were doing was leasing one transponder from Dish to offer the east and west feeds of the big 4 networks (the affiliates they carried changed several times) Even in the rare chance the laws change and the contracts between networks, affiliates, studios, syndicators, sports leagues and talent are decalred null and void, there's almost 2000 stations in the USA, good luck finding the bandwidth to put them all on a Conus beam and getting Dish to lease that much bandwidth they could be using for other things like HD channels. You could probably expect massive budget cuts too since without exclusive rights in their market no local business is going to pay millions for a local spot during major events like the Super Bowl if there's no longer the guarantee that everyone in the market is watching on your station.

Edited by KyL416, 19 July 2014 - 09:32 PM.


#40 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 19 July 2014 - 10:20 PM

That is because Canada does not have those idiotic judges that do not believe in the freedom to watch what we want.

 

Your freedom to watch what you want ends with the content owner's freedom to control its product.

 

You can live wherever you want... except you can't... if someone else already lives there.

 

If a channel is available to be viewed, then you have the freedom to view it IF you can receive it.  Put up an antenna and pull it in if you are within range of the broadcast signal.  If you aren't within range, that's where your freedom ends.


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