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Genie Lip Sync


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16 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   yence99

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 12:26 PM

Hello,

I am new to Directv and just had my Genie system installed in two rooms a few weeks ago. There has been a noticeable lip sync issue on pretty much all channels on both TVs from the beginning. I have connected the receiver directly to the TV as well as through a Yamaha sound system (HDMI). I also tried going to the TV with HDMI and from via with an optical cable to my receiver. No difference. I also have a Sling box (connected via component cables) and the lip sync is present there as well. This has to be the Genie receiver as I think I have eliminated all other options.

 

Any thoughts? Is this a common issue? Thanks.



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#2 OFFLINE   MysteryMan

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 01:49 PM

Have you tried resetting the receiver?


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#3 OFFLINE   yence99

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 03:38 PM

yes, i unplugged the receiver and it rebooted.



#4 OFFLINE   jagrim

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 07:17 PM

Hello,
I am new to Directv and just had my Genie system installed in two rooms a few weeks ago. There has been a noticeable lip sync issue on pretty much all channels on both TVs from the beginning. I have connected the receiver directly to the TV as well as through a Yamaha sound system (HDMI). I also tried going to the TV with HDMI and from via with an optical cable to my receiver. No difference. I also have a Sling box (connected via component cables) and the lip sync is present there as well. This has to be the Genie receiver as I think I have eliminated all other options.

Any thoughts? Is this a common issue? Thanks.


Are you listening to both the Tv and the sound system at the same time. That is the only audio sync that I have seen with my HR34. The fix is to turn the TV sound off.


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#5 OFFLINE   SomeRandomIdiot

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Posted 22 August 2014 - 10:47 PM

Are you listening to both the Tv and the sound system at the same time. That is the only audio sync that I have seen with my HR34. The fix is to turn the TV sound off.


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Huh?

 

If the TV Sound is synced -  the external sound system should be synced with the TV audio.

 

Turning the TV audio off will not make a difference as the audio is being produced at the same time if they entire system is synced.

 

If the external receiver is out of sync, turning off the TV audio will not magically make the external audio unit sync with the video.

 

The only time there has been an lip sync issue between the DVR and TV Audio (take the Yamaha out of it) has been when there is weather causing errors in the DBS signal in live programming. MPEG4 is not forgiving (and the error correction is not that high). It will throw the unit out of sync Video to Audio.

 

This can be corrected though by simply changing to another channel and changing back.  If a recorded program (not simply rewinding live programming), I do not think I have ever seen that out of sync except when a channel had a problem at the source (or DirecTV had a problem with the receive site mpeg4 encoder).

 

You were not very clear in your original post. Have you disconnect the Yamaha completely, run a HDMI cable from the Genie to the TV - leaving the Yamaha out of the picture. You say the audio is out of sync all the time. Is it out of sync with the Yamaha not in the path of the signal?

 

Also, you talk of multiple rooms. Do you have a wireless C41 on the second TV that is also out of sync? Or is it just on the Genie - or both?


Edited by SomeRandomIdiot, 22 August 2014 - 10:48 PM.


#6 OFFLINE   jagrim

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:44 AM

Huh?

If the TV Sound is synced - the external sound system should be synced with the TV


From day 1 that I have had my HR34-700, i have a slight audio sync between the TV sound and my external sound system. It is very noticeable and reducing the TV volume to 0 allows use of the external sound system. IMO, it is the external sound system and not the reciever.

Your experience may be different but you have not listened (no pun intended)




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#7 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:35 PM

From day 1 that I have had my HR34-700, i have a slight audio sync between the TV sound and my external sound system. It is very noticeable and reducing the TV volume to 0 allows use of the external sound system. IMO, it is the external sound system and not the reciever.

Your experience may be different but you have not listened (no pun intended)




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Your experience reflects mine and is typical, not unusual. The two paths are different and they experience different delays. With a Home Theater System (audio/video and hdmi switching), you should always turn the TV's sound off or all the way down, or you are nearly certain to get an echo. (Plus you are playing the audio of the 2nd stream (TV) through lousy speakers and a questionable audio chain that includes the TV's preamps/amps, which certainly should not compare to any quality home theater amp.)


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#8 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 12:42 PM

Huh?

 

If the TV Sound is synced -  the external sound system should be synced with the TV audio.

 

Turning the TV audio off will not make a difference as the audio is being produced at the same time if they entire system is synced.

 

If the external receiver is out of sync, turning off the TV audio will not magically make the external audio unit sync with the video.

 

The only time there has been an lip sync issue between the DVR and TV Audio (take the Yamaha out of it) has been when there is weather causing errors in the DBS signal in live programming. MPEG4 is not forgiving (and the error correction is not that high). It will throw the unit out of sync Video to Audio.

 

This can be corrected though by simply changing to another channel and changing back.  If a recorded program (not simply rewinding live programming), I do not think I have ever seen that out of sync except when a channel had a problem at the source (or DirecTV had a problem with the receive site mpeg4 encoder).

 

You were not very clear in your original post. Have you disconnect the Yamaha completely, run a HDMI cable from the Genie to the TV - leaving the Yamaha out of the picture. You say the audio is out of sync all the time. Is it out of sync with the Yamaha not in the path of the signal?

 

Also, you talk of multiple rooms. Do you have a wireless C41 on the second TV that is also out of sync? Or is it just on the Genie - or both?

Horse Hockey.

(If I understand your assertion correctly)

 

The two paths (HT System vs. TV Speakers driven by the internal electronics of the HDTV)  are completely different and will show different delays nearly all the time. (TV Internal Audio vs. Sound System/Home Theater).

 

In all my years using HDTV, I have NEVER heard or used a system that did not show an echo (i.e., differential delay) between a Home Theater amp and the HDTV internal audio chain.

 

You are either incredibly lucky, or I have completely misunderstood your post (as did a following poster that I replied to above)

 

Once you have multiple paths for the audio to follow, you are virtually certain to encounter differential delay.


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#9 OFFLINE   acostapimps

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 02:08 PM

Is there a Audio Sync or whatever it's called settings in the Yamaha receiver?

 

Not sure what brand TV you got,  but in Samsung there's a audio delay setting that is on 30 by default,  and should be set to 0,

in Digital Audio Out menu,  when using optical

 

The only thing I experience with Genie is audio delay on TV volume when changing channels,  but early audio before video using a Vizio soundbar via optical,  Not lip sync issue though


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#10 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 05:48 PM

My Denon has a feature called HDMI Sync and is turned ON. This delays the video a tad to get both in sync 


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#11 OFFLINE   fudpucker

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Posted 23 August 2014 - 06:58 PM

Huh. Hope this isn't a problem when my Genie and clients are installed this week - lip synch issues drive me completely batty. With the Dish receivers I currently have, I run the output from the dish receiver into an AVR via HDMI, and then that into the HDTV HDMI input. I can get sound via my AVR (what I usually use) or I can mute my AVR and use the sound from the TV - but neither has any synch issues at all. My assumption is I won't have any with the Genie or clients.



#12 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:47 PM

My Denon has a feature called HDMI Sync and is turned ON. This delays the video a tad to get both in sync 

So does my Onkyo...but it can't make up for two paths at once. In other words, if you have a lipsync issue using D* box > HT Amp (hdmi), you can use the HT Amp's adjustment to try to compensate.

If you get it fixed, and then you add in the TV's audio, you will get an echo, because you have introduced a completely different path (with its own delay characteristics). The HT Amp can't compensate for two different delays, and when you use both an HT Amp and a TV's internal amps, you now have two delays, and they are different, hence an echo if the TV volume is turned up.


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#13 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 04:53 PM

Huh. Hope this isn't a problem when my Genie and clients are installed this week - lip synch issues drive me completely batty. With the Dish receivers I currently have, I run the output from the dish receiver into an AVR via HDMI, and then that into the HDTV HDMI input. I can get sound via my AVR (what I usually use) or I can mute my AVR and use the sound from the TV - but neither has any synch issues at all. My assumption is I won't have any with the Genie or clients.

Yes, but if you play both the TV's and AVR's audio at the same time (using the TV speakers and your AVR speakers, you will hear an echo, because you have two different audio paths with different delays.

This is different than the classical lip-sync issue, which is typically between the video and audio amp, but can happen just as easily between the video box and a tv itself. The problem can be the result of several variables, including but not limited to:

 

1. Internal delay in the D* box itself caused by processor overloading or poor coding in the firmware.

2. source problems prior to even getting to the satellite (uplink issues)

 

The problem can come and go, it can be on one channel and not others. It can be cured by doing a receiver restart (in many instances), unless the problem is at the uplink side.

 

You may not see it often, but chances are, if you pay attention, you will see it now and again.


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#14 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:10 PM

So does my Onkyo...but it can't make up for two paths at once. In other words, if you have a lipsync issue using D* box > HT Amp (hdmi), you can use the HT Amp's adjustment to try to compensate.

If you get it fixed, and then you add in the TV's audio, you will get an echo, because you have introduced a completely different path (with its own delay characteristics). The HT Amp can't compensate for two different delays, and when you use both an HT Amp and a TV's internal amps, you now have two delays, and they are different, hence an echo if the TV volume is turned up.

Right, but if I am using my Denon, WTH I want to use the TV volume???  :scratch:


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#15 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:43 PM

Right, but if I am using my Denon, WTH I want to use the TV volume???  :scratch:

You know better, of course, but you would be amazed how many places I go where I find two things:

 

1. HT Audio and TV audio both on and turned up.

2.  TV audio out routed to the HT because it was "easier" that way. (HT had hdmi switched inputs not in use)

 

My comments weren't intended for you specifically, but for the person earlier in the discussion who seemed to be saying there shouldn't be an echo (which both of us agree, there will be).

Sorry for the confusion. The topics got a bit mixed because two or three things were being discussed at the same time and I was trying to make a point about TV audio being a very bad idea if one were using a HT Amp.


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#16 OFFLINE   peds48

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 05:57 PM

You know better, of course, but you would be amazed how many places I go where I find two things:

 

1. HT Audio and TV audio both on and turned up.

2.  TV audio out routed to the HT because it was "easier" that way. (HT had hdmi switched inputs not in use)

 

My comments weren't intended for you specifically, but for the person earlier in the discussion who seemed to be saying there shouldn't be an echo (which both of us agree, there will be).

Sorry for the confusion. The topics got a bit mixed because two or three things were being discussed at the same time and I was trying to make a point about TV audio being a very bad idea if one were using a HT Amp.

Agree with every word on that post  :righton:


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#17 OFFLINE   TomCat

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 08:26 PM

In the interests of clarity, there are two sorts of lipsync that are problematic. One is an offset that is always the same. That can be cured with an AVR that allows offset compensation. Any time there is encoding, decoding, A-D, or D-A, there is latency, and it may be slightly different for different paths, and it may be the same, in the same way that a broken clock is always right twice a day.

 

The other issue is lipsync that varies over time. That is due to three things. First, MPEG encoding and decoding is somewhat elastic, meaning that it can slow down if the decoding gets difficult. It is imperceptible, but cumulative. It is not uncommon to have two identical receivers side by side receiving the same program, and being as much as a second or two off from each other.

 

The second thing is that AC-3 and MPEG are separate processes for separate elementary streams (audio and video are separate) designed from different protocols, rather than being designed as one protocol. If the video slows, eventually you get lipsync issues, because the audio marches right along without slowing, or caring.

 

The third thing is that the separate elementary stream that audio is carried in does not mirror or regularly reference the video stream. Both start from the same starting line, but there is nothing holding them in sync with each other.

 

If you stop/start again or jump back, the audio references the video and reclocks, but only then, and not continually or on a regular basis. And none of this has anything at all to do with how much or how little error correction there is, because FEC happens in real time and does not incur any added delay. There may be much more FEC in MPEG-2, because it needs it more, but there is a ton more delay in MPEG-4, which is one reason why channel changing started to take longer about the time DBS converted to MPEG-4. The GOP structure can be 200 frames (over 6 seconds) long for MPEG-4, but DTV mercifully adds I frames often enough for us not to have to wait 6 seconds for a channel change.

 

As an extreme example, we used to delay programming for two hours due to timezone issues (still do). The video servers designed to do this would work just fine, but overnight the video would drop to snow on the satellite for 12 hours or so (we're talking back in the days of analog video being converted and delayed by an MPEG-2 server). Video noise, or snow, is a very extremely difficult thing to encode as MPEG, and so it would slow down the playback ever so slightly. By the next morning, once a couple of hours of video had returned, the audio on the delayed playback would be as much as seven MINUTES ahead of the video. We had to reset it every day to prevent that going to air.

 

It took an industry (television) a long time to adapt and get lipsync right, and when lots of sat channels in HD sprung up in 2004-5, there was a lot of lipsync because no one saw it coming and no one had budgeted for equipment to keep it corralled. By 6 months later, most of it was gone.

 

Next, is Closed Captioning issues. Stations are going to be required to keep that in perfect sync, get a much higher percentage of words correct, and place it on the screen better in ways that don't block important parts of the screen. Companies like Telestream are rushing to create authoring or correction systems that can handle this. So in a couple of years, CC will be a lot better than it is currently. Live CC will still have a lot of latitude, but CC for recorded programming will have to be near-perfect.


Edited by TomCat, 26 August 2014 - 08:40 PM.

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