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Another reason today's DMAs are all wrong


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28 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Guesst925XTU

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Posted 01 January 2005 - 03:35 PM

Going over the bridge from Manahawkin, NJ to Long Beach Island, NJ is a full size, lighted, 4 color billboard saying "GO EAGLES!".

Manahawkin & Long Beach Island are in Ocean County, NJ - New York City DMA.

The Eagles are a Philadelphia team, carried on Philadelphia TV stations.

Comcast carries both NYC & Philadelphia channles, but anyone with DBS can NOT get ANY Philadelphia stations!

-------------------------
Note to DirecTV:
My Zip code is 08008.

I live 60 miles East of Philadelphia.

I'm 83 miles South of NY.

Comcast provides KYW, WPVI, WCAU, WHYY, WPHL, WTXF, WPSG & WMCN all in both SD & HD in Ocean County.
Why don't you?


#2 OFFLINE   ADent

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Posted 02 January 2005 - 04:05 AM

File a complaint with your Congressman - no wait, DMAs are controlled by Nielson (though I guess Congress could stop arguing of lame constitutional amendments that will never pass and override Nielson......).

The new law allows for significantly viewed, much like cable has. It will be a few months before they can be offered though (the FCC has to define significantly viewed, and the DBS companies have to figure out how to deal with that list).

#3 OFFLINE   kenglish

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 09:56 AM

Nielsen, the NAB, the local broadcasters..........
NONE of them set the DMAs!!!

A DMA is a "Designated Market Area", based on standard Government research concerning what communities and cities share trade areas and customers. It is a basis for who interconnects with who. It's probably the basis for having two cities share the same telephone area codes and local exchanges, it helps determine highway placements, tax structures, etc for interrelated communities.

It's really NOT some communist plot by greedy broadcasters. And, it has nothing to do with station signal coverage....it's more to do with who has shared business, social, and political interests, and is best served by a common media.

#4 OFFLINE   joblo

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 10:38 AM

Last I checked, a DMA was a copyrighted Nielsen entity, based on propietary Nielsen research.

I believe you are confusing this with the Metropolitan Statistical Area (MSA) and Consolidated Maetropolitan Statistical Area (CMSA), which are entities defined by the U.S. Census Bureau.

#5 OFFLINE   Guesst925XTU

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 08:09 PM

Nielsen, the NAB, the local broadcasters..........
NONE of them set the DMAs!!!

A DMA is a "Designated Market Area", based on standard Government research concerning what communities and cities share trade areas and customers. It is a basis for who interconnects with who. It's probably the basis for having two cities share the same telephone area codes and local exchanges, it helps determine highway placements, tax structures, etc for interrelated communities.


How come only the Southern Ocean County is "609" area code then?

The vast majority of the "609" area code is in the PHILLY DMA (Trenton/Atlantic City/etc.), however Southern Ocean County is "609" and NYC DMA.

-------------------------
Note to DirecTV:
My Zip code is 08008.

I live 60 miles East of Philadelphia.

I'm 83 miles South of NY.

Comcast provides KYW, WPVI, WCAU, WHYY, WPHL, WTXF, WPSG & WMCN all in both SD & HD in Ocean County.
Why don't you?


#6 OFFLINE   BobaBird

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 09:00 PM

I don't think kenglish is confused at all. He has simply tried to explain what Nielsen has brought to our lives and how it makes this country great!

Apple pie, Chevrolet, and DMA!

p.s. It helps helps if envision the author's tongue planted firmly in cheek.
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#7 OFFLINE   Link

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 11:26 PM

Don't some TV stations provide weather or include counties in their weather watches and maps even though they aren't in their DMA but they know they are viewed by that region? There has to be some overlapping. For instance some prefer to watch WPVI 6 instead of WABC 7 even though New York might technically be the DMA.

#8 OFFLINE   gbranch

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 01:33 PM

Nielsen, the NAB, the local broadcasters..........
NONE of them set the DMAs!!!

A DMA is a "Designated Market Area", based on standard Government research concerning what communities and cities share trade areas and customers. It is a basis for who interconnects with who. It's probably the basis for having two cities share the same telephone area codes and local exchanges, it helps determine highway placements, tax structures, etc for interrelated communities.

It's really NOT some communist plot by greedy broadcasters. And, it has nothing to do with station signal coverage....it's more to do with who has shared business, social, and political interests, and is best served by a common media.


DMAs are indeed determined by Nielsen. Their DMA maps are even copyrighted, although several people have recreated them using non-Nielsen sources. Now Nielsen may use government research, such as signal contours from the FCC and MSA data from the census bureau, but I suspect that there are multiple parameters than figure into the equation.

The problem that I have with DMA's is that Nielsen gives stations rights over what I can and can not see. If my local ABC station choses not to show Saving Private Ryan because a soldier under fire may say the f-bomb, then I am SOL unless I can devise a way to get an ABC station from another market.

If my local newspaper choses not to carry Dilbert or Click and Clack, I can always buy a newspaper from another city. How do tv stations differ from newspapers? Other than the obvious (one is RF, one is paper), they are both media outlets.

IMHO, the protection afforded by Nielsen's DMAs remove any incentive for stations to improve their programming or technical standards.
Later,
---
Greg S. Branch

#9 OFFLINE   RaceTrack

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:50 PM

Don't some TV stations provide weather or include counties in their weather watches and maps even though they aren't in their DMA but they know they are viewed by that region? There has to be some overlapping. For instance some prefer to watch WPVI 6 instead of WABC 7 even though New York might technically be the DMA.



Yes the Tulsa DMA shows weather maps and watches and all that from a few counties that border its DMA.. they know people there watch. Its funny to as most of these areas as "SV" in its dma as per FCC rules also.

#10 OFFLINE   joblo

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 05:31 PM

Now Nielsen may use government research, such as signal contours from the FCC and MSA data from the census bureau, but I suspect that there are multiple parameters than figure into the equation.

Signal contours are irrelevant. Census data is irrelevant.

Nielsen is a company that measures TV ratings. The DMAs are determined by measuring which sets of channels get the highest ratings in any given county/survey area. If there existed a county where the majority of viewing was via satellite DNS, that county would end up assigned to New York or LA, even if it were in North Dakota. The Denver DMA at one time included counties in Nevada and Montana.

The problem that I have with DMA's is that Nielsen gives stations rights over what I can and can not see.

No, Nielsen measures ratings. It's Congress that enshrines the DMAs in law and gives stations monopoly rights, which I agree, is not right...

#11 OFFLINE   tonyp56

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 05:51 PM

Racetrack,

I live closer to the Tulsa than I do OKC, yet I am in the OKC DMA. Go figure, Tulsa news is more about my area than OKC, and I could care less about OKC weather or news its about 80 or so miles away. (I never go there, I only live 40 miles from Tulsa)

That so called list from the FCC, only listed channel 2 and 6 out of Tulsa, yet my sister (and mother-in-law) who has cable in town (I live in the country) gets 2, 8, 11, 19, and 41 all out of Tulsa. I feel like I should be able to receive the same thing that my sister receives. (of course I could always put up an antenna, but she doesn't have to, so why should I) In the end, if I can put up an antenna and receive it, I should be able to get it through satellite!
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#12 OFFLINE   RaceTrack

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 10:07 PM

Racetrack,

I live closer to the Tulsa than I do OKC, yet I am in the OKC DMA. Go figure, Tulsa news is more about my area than OKC, and I could care less about OKC weather or news its about 80 or so miles away. (I never go there, I only live 40 miles from Tulsa)

That so called list from the FCC, only listed channel 2 and 6 out of Tulsa, yet my sister (and mother-in-law) who has cable in town (I live in the country) gets 2, 8, 11, 19, and 41 all out of Tulsa. I feel like I should be able to receive the same thing that my sister receives. (of course I could always put up an antenna, but she doesn't have to, so why should I) In the end, if I can put up an antenna and receive it, I should be able to get it through satellite!


I have a similer case as you.. but a little in reverse.. Im in the Fort Smith Dma, its a small dma, it has little HD content and lower power stations.. I dont really care about the HD.. but anyway.. im just barely in that dma.. as you are prob just barely in the okc dma. I get Tulsa stations with an antenna (county also here. ), And yes in on the local cable they get Ktul 8, Kotv 6, Kjrh 2, Koki 23, Kfto 41, Koed 11 oeta. Fort Smith is a bit closer ( maybe 15 miles or so diference..), but they focus on Arkansas and dont have a UPN.. and because im in Oklahoma the Arkansas news is pointless.... which is why I watch Tulsa with my antenna. And about the FFC list my area has the Tulsa channels as SV. Other thing when I was a kid i grew up on the Tulsa stations, and later to find out i could not get those cause of some stupid DMA law ****ed me off.. So maybe i will get 8,6 and all if the DBS companies offer it.

BTW: Do you know where Travis went? I heard he was going to 6, but i havent heard any more. I heard him on the radio to.

#13 OFFLINE   gbranch

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:18 AM

Signal contours are irrelevant. Census data is irrelevant.

Nielsen is a company that measures TV ratings. The DMAs are determined by measuring which sets of channels get the highest ratings in any given county/survey area. If there existed a county where the majority of viewing was via satellite DNS, that county would end up assigned to New York or LA, even if it were in North Dakota. The Denver DMA at one time included counties in Nevada and Montana.

No, Nielsen measures ratings. It's Congress that enshrines the DMAs in law and gives stations monopoly rights, which I agree, is not right...


No, I think you are wrong. No government entity determines DMAs. Not the FCC, not Congress. The DMAs are set by Nielsen according to their market research. If DMAs were set by Congress, then DMA maps would be public domain. They are not, as you they are copyrighted by Nielsen and available for PURCHASE through their website. Please see:

http://www.vnuemedia...store/index.jsp

And http://www.nielsenmedia.com/DMAs.html

If you look at the bottom of the page on the second link, you will see the following text:

NSI® and DMA® are registered trademarks of Nielsen Media Research, Inc.

I also do not believe that signal contours and census are irrelevant in the determination of a DMA. Yes, I agree that signal contours are NOT the only factor, but they are a factor. For instance, most of New Mexico is in the Albuquerque DMA. Many of these areas are hundreds of miles from Albuquerque. Las Cruces, however, is in the El Paso DMA, because they are within the signal contours of El Paso and share more in common, socio-economic wise, with El Paso than Albuquerque.

Rats - I think that I just sprained a finger by typing "Albuquerque" so many times :)
Later,
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Greg S. Branch

#14 OFFLINE   dfergie

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:33 AM

For instance, most of New Mexico is in the Albuquerque DMA. Many of these areas are hundreds of miles from Albuquerque. Las Cruces, however, is in the El Paso DMA, because they are within the signal contours of El Paso and share more in common, socio-economic wise, with El Paso than Albuquerque.

Rats - I think that I just sprained a finger by typing "Albuquerque" so many times :)

I live in Southeast NM...(Eddy County) hundreds of miles from Albuqurerque, however lea county just east is in either the Lubbock or Midland/Odessa Dma... the forms that came out (Shivera) list us as getting Abc from El Paso (the affliliate was owned by them for awhile) Nbc from Lubbock (same thing) and Cbs from Roswell (bought out by Alb. ) I hope that when the dust settles I can get El Paso abc and Lubbock Nbc as they at least share Weather Conditions... (El Paso 150 miles west, Lubbock 180 miles east)

#15 OFFLINE   joblo

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 01:46 PM

No, I think you are wrong. No government entity determines DMAs.

I didn't say any government entity "determined" DMAs. I said Congress "enshrines them in law", i.e. Nielsen defines and determines them, Congress uses them in the satellite home viewer statutes, thusly:

17USC122 (j) Definitions. - In this section -

[...]
(2) Local market. -

(A) In general. - The term ''local market'', in the case of both commercial and noncommercial television broadcast stations, means the designated market area in which a station is located, and -
[...]
© Designated market area. - For purposes of subparagraph (A), the term ''designated market area'' means a designated market area, as determined by Nielsen Media Research and published in the 1999-2000 Nielsen Station Index Directory and Nielsen Station Index United States Television Household Estimates or any successor publication.

The "or" in that last clause, btw, is what gives DBS companies the flexibility to keep using old DMA definitions for their LIL service areas rather than having to change them every year.

I also do not believe that signal contours and census are irrelevant in the determination of a DMA. Yes, I agree that signal contours are NOT the only factor, but they are a factor.

Signal contours are an indirect factor, only insofar as they determine what channels the OTA audience is capable of watching. Nielsen probably uses census data to help them define a scientific sample for its surveys. But it’s the survey results themselves that determine the DMAs, plain and simple. That’s why some counties shift around every year as the survey results change.

#16 OFFLINE   gbranch

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 03:00 PM

I didn't say any government entity "determined" DMAs. I said Congress "enshrines them in law", i.e. Nielsen defines and determines them, Congress uses them in the satellite home viewer statutes, thusly:

17USC122 (j) Definitions. - In this section -

[...]
(2) Local market. -

(A) In general. - The term ''local market'', in the case of both commercial and noncommercial television broadcast stations, means the designated market area in which a station is located, and -
[...]
© Designated market area. - For purposes of subparagraph (A), the term ''designated market area'' means a designated market area, as determined by Nielsen Media Research and published in the 1999-2000 Nielsen Station Index Directory and Nielsen Station Index United States Television Household Estimates or any successor publication.

The "or" in that last clause, btw, is what gives DBS companies the flexibility to keep using old DMA definitions for their LIL service areas rather than having to change them every year.

Signal contours are an indirect factor, only insofar as they determine what channels the OTA audience is capable of watching. Nielsen probably uses census data to help them define a scientific sample for its surveys. But it’s the survey results themselves that determine the DMAs, plain and simple. That’s why some counties shift around every year as the survey results change.


OK, I understand what you are saying now. I was not reading into the differences between "enshrining" and "determining". Yes I agree that it is Nielsen that determines DMAs, and it's mouthpiece, the NAB, uses it's lobby to get laws such as SHVIA passed through Congress. The limit on our rights to watch out-of-market television is a direct result of acts of Congress, but ultimately, these acts are carried out on the "orders" of the NAB, using the archaic concept of DMAs as determined by Nielsen.
Later,
---
Greg S. Branch

#17 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 03:16 PM

Ocean County is 50-70 Miles from New York and 60 miles from Philly. They look both ways.......... Yet when the FCC release their "significantly viewed" channels they totally ignored Philly in our area. plus they grouped everyone in Monmouth County together.... NE Monmouth can see Manhattan while SE Monmouth can't pick it up without a huge antenna (antennaweb.org says I can't receive any HD OTA broadcasts).
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#18 OFFLINE   beasst37799

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 03:33 PM

i hear ya bob same location as u but luckly antenna web is not always correct i have a winegard sensar 2 and get a few hd locals for nyc
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#19 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 04:14 PM

How close are you? I'm based in Brielle, NJ (as far southeast as you can go in Monmouth County). I was stalling re: putting up an OTA antenna as it looked like E* and D* would have NYC HD locals up by the summer, but now I'm not so sure as E* is dragging its feet. An antenna also removes compression from the equation which would be nice.

Which stations can you pull in?
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#20 OFFLINE   SR0655

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Posted 25 February 2005 - 06:16 AM

Nielsen is a company that measures TV ratings. The DMAs are determined by measuring which sets of channels get the highest ratings in any given county/survey area. If there existed a county where the majority of viewing was via satellite DNS, that county would end up assigned to New York or LA, even if it were in North Dakota.

That's incorrect. Nielsen determines DMA assignments based upon viewership levels, but only terrestrial broadcasts (not cable/satellite retransmissions) are included in their equations. Otherwise, the determinations would be based largely upon themselves (a nonsensical feedback loop).

As for Ocean County, NJ, I'm stunned by the FCC's "significantly viewed" list (which hopefully will be amended to include Philadelphia stations other than WPVI).

I live on the 732/609 border, where non-satellite viewership is fairly evenly divided (probably very close to a 50/50 split) between New York City and Philadelphia stations. Until switching from cable to DBS, I never favored one city's stations over the other's. Most people in the area regard both markets as "local," and don't even realize that they reside specifically within the New York City DMA.

The situation in southern Ocean County is dramatically different; the Philadelphia stations are overwhelmingly preferred over their New York City counterparts (as one would expect, based purely upon geography). When it comes to local sports/news, there’s no contest.

Even in central/northern Ocean County, countless people continue to subscribe to the substandard Comcast cable service (instead of switching to DirecTV or Dish Network), purely to avoid losing access to Philadelphia stations. (OTA reception of either city’s broadcasts is relatively difficult and extremely unpopular.) This is a ludicrously unfair competitive advantage, and one that the FCC is duty bound to negate.




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