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FCC Proposed Rules from SHVERA


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103 replies to this topic

#51 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:36 AM

This SUX!

Monmouth County, NJ = All New York stations + NO Philly stations (my cable company has all except the CBS affiliate)

Ocean County, NJ = All New York stations + ONLY the ABC Affiliate from Philly. (The local Comcast has ALL of the New York and Philly Channels)

Once again, Congress issues press releases telling us how wonderful their legislation and then it turns out to be worthless (Or even worse..... with the now useless availability of sig. viewed channels which DON'T match cables', we get distants taken away and HD stalled for at least another 3 years for those of us >40 miles away from the city.
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau Walden (1854)

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#52 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:39 AM

Hey, NOW we know why the NAB was SO happy with this legislation......

The NAB weasels win again. I wonder how big the check was to our elected leaders to sell us down the river like this.
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau Walden (1854)

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#53 OFFLINE   jagec82

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:51 AM

Some background info, followed by some questions/comments/observations.

DMA #5 (Boston/Manchester, NH) Existing DirecTV Lineup
WGBH-2 (PBS) Boston, MA
WBZ-4 (CBS) Boston, MA
WCVB-5 (ABC) Boston, MA
WHDH-7 (NBC) Boston, MA
WMUR-9 (ABC) Manchester, NH
WENH-11 (PBS) Durham, NH
WFXT-25 (FOX) Boston, MA
WUNI-27 (UNI) Worcester, MA
WSBK-38 (UPN) Boston, MA
WGBX-44 (PBS) Boston, MA
WWDP-46 (SNBC) Norwell, MA
WNDS-50 (Ind) Derry, NH
WLVI-56 (WB) Cambridge, MA
WNEU-60 (TEL) Merrimack, NH
WUTF-66 (TFA) Marlborough, MA
WBPX-68 (PAX) Boston, MA

FCC Mandated Lineup/Norfolk, MA County
WBZ-4 (CBS) Boston, MA
WCVB-5 (ABC) Boston, MA
WHDH-7 (NBC) Boston, MA
WSBK-38 (UPN) Boston, MA
WLVI-56 (WB) Cambridge, MA
+WBPX-68 (PAX) Boston, MA

So I guess for those stations I currently have (not including PBS), I lose? Instead of gaining any channels, I lose the New Hampshire ones I receive? Also, cable companies throughout my county carry all the New Bedford, MA/Providence, RI DMA stations. Why are they allowed to carry them, but satellite systems not?

As someone stated, this needs to be reviewed far more in-depth.

#54 OFFLINE   swing

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:53 AM

Some background info, followed by some questions/comments/observations.

DMA #5 (Boston/Manchester, NH) Existing DirecTV Lineup
WGBH-2 (PBS) Boston, MA
WBZ-4 (CBS) Boston, MA
WCVB-5 (ABC) Boston, MA
WHDH-7 (NBC) Boston, MA
WMUR-9 (ABC) Manchester, NH
WENH-11 (PBS) Durham, NH
WFXT-25 (FOX) Boston, MA
WUNI-27 (UNI) Worcester, MA
WSBK-38 (UPN) Boston, MA
WGBX-44 (PBS) Boston, MA
WWDP-46 (SNBC) Norwell, MA
WNDS-50 (Ind) Derry, NH
WLVI-56 (WB) Cambridge, MA
WNEU-60 (TEL) Merrimack, NH
WUTF-66 (TFA) Marlborough, MA
WBPX-68 (PAX) Boston, MA

FCC Mandated Lineup/Norfolk, MA County
WBZ-4 (CBS) Boston, MA
WCVB-5 (ABC) Boston, MA
WHDH-7 (NBC) Boston, MA
WSBK-38 (UPN) Boston, MA
WLVI-56 (WB) Cambridge, MA
+WBPX-68 (PAX) Boston, MA

So I guess for those stations I currently have (not including PBS), I lose? Instead of gaining any channels, I lose the New Hampshire ones I receive? Also, cable companies throughout my county carry all the New Bedford, MA/Providence, RI DMA stations. Why are they allowed to carry them, but satellite systems not?

As someone stated, this needs to be reviewed far more in-depth.


You shouldn't lose any channels. The significantly viewed list is only optional (for the satellite companies) and additive.

#55 OFFLINE   swing

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 08:59 AM

This SUX!

Monmouth County, NJ = All New York stations + NO Philly stations (my cable company has all except the CBS affiliate)

Ocean County, NJ = All New York stations + ONLY the ABC Affiliate from Philly. (The local Comcast has ALL of the New York and Philly Channels)

Once again, Congress issues press releases telling us how wonderful their legislation and then it turns out to be worthless (Or even worse..... with the now useless availability of sig. viewed channels which DON'T match cables', we get distants taken away and HD stalled for at least another 3 years for those of us >40 miles away from the city.


Northern Monmouth County doesn't get Philly stations on cable or over the air easily. I guess their viewing habits explain Monmouth.

As for Ocean County, it is odd only WPVI 6 made the significantly viewed list. I do remember in the late 90s, that KYW and WCAU were repositioned on their respective broadcast channel numbers on cable, which probably led to higher viewership but later.

North Western NJ counties (Warren, Hunterdon) in NY DMA, and Mercer Co. in Philadelphia DMA get a better lineup of Philly and NY signals over the Jersey Shore counties, but oddly enough Warren County and Hunterdon Co. cable systems dropped most Philly stations. The satellite lineup would be better for them.

WMGM 40 (NBC)-Atlantic City didn't make significantly viewed in its home county or any county. This list seems to be quite old. CH.48 listed for Philadelphia was the old WKBS, from the 70's. It went off the air for 10 plus years, and resigned as a small budget station WGTW 48, now a TBN station. When it came back in the 90s, it had a smaller audience, peanuts in rating share.

It is also odd that rural Schuylkill, Carbon and Monroe counties in PA aren't significantly viewed for their home town Scranton DMA channels (except for WNEP-ABC in Carbon), but instead the main Philadelphia channels (3, 6, 10), yet those counties are in Scranton DMA.

As one poster said, it looks FCC pulled a list from 1972, with a few inserted updates.

One difference is that cable companies have to carry the nearest of a broadcast network over a duplicating station, if the nearer station requests and provides a quality signal. In Ocean County, it has meant that Comcast cannot drop Philadelphia stations off the lineups, since the Philadelphia city of license is closer or atleast equal to that of NYC.

Ocean and Southern Monmouth is a large number of HHs, more than some of the small markets that DirecTV and Dish Network are doing now. It's too bad neither provider can be market responsive to them, by being able to activate both sets of locals, to match the cable companies there.

#56 OFFLINE   gor88

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:48 AM

Why would any of these stations be listed as significanly viewed in any other market?


Good question. Actually, the way this list reads, the significantly viewed stations INCLUDE those within the market. For example, Rankin (and Hinds) County reads as follows:

WLBT-TV 3 Jackson, MS
WJTV-TV 12 Jackson, MS
WAPT-TV 16 Jackson, MS
+WDBD-TV 40 Jackson, MS

All these stations are in the Jackson market which Rankin definitely belongs to. I figured that if this list only included out-of-market SV stations, the Hinds and Rankin lists should say "no significantly viewed stations in this county".

Given this pattern, why doesn't Lauderdale county (Meridian) NOT show its own NBC and CBS affiliates? Why doesn't the ABC in Tupelo/Columbus show in Chickasaw county, where the tower and city of license reside?

My point here is that, the way the list appears to be assembled, the stations I mentioned earlier should be significantly viewed in their own market. They would receive at least 3% of the total viewing in their markets. The stations may not be signficantly viewed outside of their market. However, having them omitted completely indicates a problem with the overall list IMHO.

#57 OFFLINE   wkomorow

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:59 AM

Two oddities:

First, there is one significantly viewed station (the hartford Fox station) that is not carried on any cable in the county (as far as I know). Second, those of us who receive all the stations in our DMA from another state were hoping that we would be able to get in-state stations carried by cable and available to those with roof-top antennas, but that did not happen.

#58 OFFLINE   derwin0

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 11:03 AM

Submitted my comments dealing with the screwups they did for Butts County, GA.
The direct link to file comments to 05-49 (SHIVA) is: http://gullfoss2.fcc...e&proc_id=05-49

#59 OFFLINE   jfraz

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 11:25 AM

Most of us agree that the list is woefully inadequate. I do not think the satellite providers will accept this as is. Many, Many stations do not even exist according to this list.

#60 OFFLINE   teknophyle

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:27 PM

Here it is, hot off the presses all 460 pages. Enjoy the read.

Adobe Acrobat: http://hraunfoss.fcc...FCC-05-24A1.pdf
Word: http://hraunfoss.fcc...FCC-05-24A1.doc

Added: Here is the press release from the FCC:
Adobe Acrobat: http://hraunfoss.fcc...OC-256592A1.pdf
Word: http://hraunfoss.fcc...OC-256592A1.doc
- Holtz


I have spoken with DirecTv and they know nothing about this and will NOT be making changes to anyone's account TFN! This could take another year from them to act on the customers behalf.

#61 OFFLINE   gor88

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:37 PM

I agree. Patience is needed. We should take time and evaluate the list of stations. If a station is totally missing, we should politely submit feedback to the FCC indicating this. If any cable company in the county (or other listed area) carries an OTA channel out of market not on this list, we should submit feedback and politely ask why there is a discrepancy.

Since those of us who are satellite junkies are the most interested about this issue, the lions share of consumer input on this issue will probably be from us. Maybe our feedback can help them improve the list before it is finalized.

#62 OFFLINE   gor88

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:42 PM

As to speaking with DirecTV, they are probably still trying to get their arms around distant network delivery and following the law in the SHVERA act. They're not going to be concerned about SV yet. Also, they are not required to do anything at all.

having said that, I think that the satellite companies will come on board. They are not as willing to add StanDef channels as of late. Allowing for SV channels is one way to attract more people on the edge of DMAs to go with satellite.

#63 OFFLINE   wkomorow

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 12:47 PM

However, in the document and I quote:

"Based on the short time frame mandated by the SHVERA for publication of the SV List, as well as the legislative history, we believe that Congress intends for satellite carriers to make use of the SV List to expand their carriage offerings so that their subscribers can begin to experience the benefits of the SHVERA as soon as possible. We are confident that the SV List appended to this Notice has a high degree of accuracy and, therefore, believe that both cable and satellite carriers may rely on its validity to commence service, consistent with the other requirements set out in the SHVERA and this proceeding, prior to the adoption of a final list. "

#64 OFFLINE   BobMurdoch

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 01:13 PM

Scroll up this thread and make your opinions known through the FCC website to help get this corrected before they go too much farther.........
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation." Henry David Thoreau Walden (1854)

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#65 OFFLINE   JohnH

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 01:49 PM

Good question. Actually, the way this list reads, the significantly viewed stations INCLUDE those within the market. For example, Rankin (and Hinds) County reads as follows:

WLBT-TV 3 Jackson, MS
WJTV-TV 12 Jackson, MS
WAPT-TV 16 Jackson, MS
+WDBD-TV 40 Jackson, MS

All these stations are in the Jackson market which Rankin definitely belongs to. I figured that if this list only included out-of-market SV stations, the Hinds and Rankin lists should say "no significantly viewed stations in this county".

Given this pattern, why doesn't Lauderdale county (Meridian) NOT show its own NBC and CBS affiliates? Why doesn't the ABC in Tupelo/Columbus show in Chickasaw county, where the tower and city of license reside?

My point here is that, the way the list appears to be assembled, the stations I mentioned earlier should be significantly viewed in their own market. They would receive at least 3% of the total viewing in their markets. The stations may not be signficantly viewed outside of their market. However, having them omitted completely indicates a problem with the overall list IMHO.


From the look of the stations listed, they may predate DMA type market listings. Remember this list was started in 1972 and some of the old channels may appear when there is no current need for them to appear, because they are in the DMA as your local channels now. They do not need the Significantly Viewed status. You already get them if they elected to be carried.

#66 OFFLINE   Link

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:11 PM

What are these lists based on? I know that some of the Illinois and Indiana stations watch more significantly viewed than what is listed and cable carries more than this.

For example in Knox County, IN, they should get Evansville channels 7, 9, 14, 25, and 44, not just 7. While Vincennes is closer to Evansville, they are in the Terre Haute DMA (which I have never understood why Terre Haute would get higher Nielsen ratings than Evansville stations would in that county keeping Knox County out of Evansville's DMA).

#67 OFFLINE   JohnH

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:20 PM

What are these lists based on? I know that some of the Illinois and Indiana stations watch more significantly viewed than what is listed and cable carries more than this.

For example in Knox County, IN, they should get Evansville channels 7, 9, 14, 25, and 44, not just 7. While Vincennes is closer to Evansville, they are in the Terre Haute DMA (which I have never understood why Terre Haute would get higher Nielsen ratings than Evansville stations would in that county keeping Knox County out of Evansville's DMA).


Significantly viewed status is only acheived by OTA reception figures.

The Terre Haute thing may be because of WTWO(NBC) and WTHI(CBS) being there for long time.

#68 OFFLINE   Maphisto's Sidekick

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:20 PM

You shouldn't lose any channels. The significantly viewed list is only optional (for the satellite companies) and additive.


In other words, D* and E* are generally allowed to offer:

All full-power broadcast stations from your market

PLUS

All stations from the significantly viewed list

PLUS

Any other station for which D*/E* can get a waiver from the in-market station that would provide competition


One strangeness I found in the list: In California, El Dorado County East (South Lake Tahoe) has no SV stations, but the comment "Over 90% cable penetration" appears in its place. That factoid doesn't surprise me, but what does the "90% cable penetration" mark have to do with the new SV rules?

One challenge to the list's accuracy: The FCC apparently forgot about the creation of Broomfield County, CO

#69 OFFLINE   derwin0

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 02:53 PM

SV status is achieved only by using OTA ratings.
The 90% cable penetration comment probably says there are no measurable OTA ratings in that area since they are less than 10% of the total.

#70 OFFLINE   gor88

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 03:20 PM

From the look of the stations listed, they may predate DMA type market listings. Remember this list was started in 1972 and some of the old channels may appear when there is no current need for them to appear, because they are in the DMA as your local channels now. They do not need the Significantly Viewed status. You already get them if they elected to be carried.


Agreed. I just figure that the FCC should be consistent.

I did notice that WABG ABC6 and WXVT CBS15 in the small Greenwood-Greenville market do appear as SV in a few counties outside of their market. Given this, there is a small possibility that maybe a county or two might qualify for one or more of the missing stations. The best example is Yazoo County, just about 20 miles north of the missing Vicksburg FOX. I would guarantee you that WUFX qualifies to be added to their list according to the established standards. Dish Network considers the county in Jackson market, but DirecTV counts it in Greenwood-Greenville. Once DirecTV releases their locals, Yazoo county DirecTV locals subscribers wouldn't get the SV FOX station unless it is added to the list.

#71 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 03:36 PM

Are Lake and Porter Counties in the South Bend DMA? If so the answer is here.
One has to ask how did they get those stations, since this is the list they are supposed to be working from?

Lake and Porter are in the Chicago IL DMA. LaPorte is also in the Chicago DMA, but two of South Bend's stations are on THE LIST in LaPorte county.

Indianapolis and Lafayette stations and subscribers should enjoy this.
THE LIST opens up WLFI to four more Indiana counties than their DMA.
WTTV is on THE LIST for many counties. It's not perfect and isn't final, but it is a big step in the right direction!

JL

#72 OFFLINE   Marvin

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 09:16 PM

Wicomico County MD -

WMAR
WBAL
WJZ-TV
WTTG

At least I'll be getting FOX/NBC locally instead of having to watch NY...now if Directv would only offer my locals..

#73 OFFLINE   DaveP

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:00 PM

I also noticed the list includes Canadian and Mexican stations. This gives DBS the ability to transmit these within the country with just normal copyright payments?


I sure hope so... the thing I miss most about dropping cable was not getting CBC from Canada anymore. Most of the cable companies in southeast Michigan carry CBC, but neither Dish nor DirecTV carry it.

Of course there's really only two things I watch on CBC - the olympics (they actually show the sports and not the sob stories), and hockey... and we all know how much hockey I'm missing this year... :nono2:

#74 OFFLINE   sbturner

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:03 PM

So when is Dish going to offering the new stations out of market and will they be able to get those on the dish you have now?

#75 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 08 February 2005 - 10:30 PM

So when is Dish going to offering the new stations out of market and will they be able to get those on the dish you have now?

Eventually and maybe.

The way the NPRM was worded, the FCC is "confident" about their list and seems to expect the satellite providers to begin their efforts to offer the extra channels to customers. Anyone taking that leap would have to trust that the FCC rules in the NPRM would be close enough to the final rules that the satellite providers don't have to back off on any plans.

Satellite providers are required to give 60 day notice to ALL stations in the market where each SigViewed station will be offered (not just the station of the same network in the FCC's interpretation). That puts the very first possible SigViewed offering 60 days away from whenever a satellite provider notifies the affected stations. That pretty much puts this into mid April *AT THE EARLIEST*.

Will you need a new dish? Probably not ... E* will probably not offer stations AS SigViewed unless they are on Dish500. Especially with the initial rollouts.

JL




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