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Official Statement from Dish Network concerning VOIP service


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24 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 06:29 PM

I specifically asked today for an official statement from Dish concerning the use of VOIP service as a phone line to your Dish Network receivers.

The official word is this:

As they stated on the Tech Forum, DISH Network receivers do not support a direct connection to VOIP, LAN's or cell phones. A dial tone from a land line must be connected in order to receive VOD, some ITV games or shopping services, or pay per view programming. Some customers may be able to connect the receiver to an adapter on a VOIP system which provides dial tone and successfully participate in the interactive TV and shopping services, but these types of connections are known to be very unreliable and inconsistent for Caller ID. Since DISH Network has no control over such services, we cannot provide technical support in troubleshooting problems with them.

There you have it.
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#2 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 22 February 2005 - 06:42 PM

Thanks Mark.

VOIP is not the "be all and end all" that cable companies make it out to be. Its lack of "backward compatability" is making it a real target for the local phone company's ads. I was watching the local news tonight and right after the ad for Time Warner's VOIP service saying how great it was, there was an ad from our local phone company saying how bad VOIP is. Great scheduling by the station's traffic department. I bet they get a nasty call from Time Warner tomorrow.
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#3 OFFLINE   Cyclone

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:38 AM

Those ads will only last so long. Once the ILECs get their own VoIP systems up and running, it will be all that they sell in those markets serviced.

Of course, by then they'll also be using Triple Play (Voice/Video/Data) bundling deals to get you off of DBS. Why need a dial tone line for your dbs box, when our Video service is right here?
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#4 Guest_gpflepsen_*

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:40 AM

How about an official statement on why the 921, 721 (and perhaps others) receivers don't work with a phone service with DSL service? My 301 and 6000 and sometimes the 811 all worked OK and provided the Caller ID feature. But the 721 and 921 don't.

#5 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 10:47 AM

How about an official statement on why the 921, 721 (and perhaps others) receivers don't work with a phone service with DSL service?


I have two DISH receivers (one is a 721) connected to my DSL line. I don't have any problem at all. Do you have the DSL filters (or a whole house filter) on the lines connected to your receivers?
Bill R

#6 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 10:58 AM

Those ads will only last so long. Once the ILECs get their own VoIP systems up and running, it will be all that they sell in those markets serviced.



As far your statement that "it will be all they sell" that is many, many years away (if at all). There are just to many weaknesses is the current design of VoIP service (power outages, reliability, and internet insecurity being the main ones) for VoIP to catch on with the masses.
Bill R

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 11:03 AM

I have two DISH receivers (one is a 721) connected to my DSL line. I don't have any problem at all. Do you have the DSL filters (or a whole house filter) on the lines connected to your receivers?


I have the filters.

I had the 301, 6000 and 811 connected to the same phone lines and they worked. I shipped them out, replacing them with the 921 and 721. I actually had the 811 and 721 connected at the same time. CID worked on the 811, but not the 721. It never has worked on the 921.

Interest has waned and I don't feel like troubleshooting the receivers anymore. Every other piece of equipment w/ CID in the house works.

#8 OFFLINE   michaelL

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 11:48 AM

I am confused.

I have Vonage (a VOIP service) and I have a dial tone.

I have my 921 connected to my Vonage VOIP line and CallerID works well. I have not bought any PPV movies, so I do not know if that function will work over a VOIP line.

Mike

#9 OFFLINE   Bill R

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 12:04 PM

I am confused.

I have Vonage (a VOIP service) and I have a dial tone.

I have my 921 connected to my Vonage VOIP line and CallerID works well. I have not bought any PPV movies, so I do not know if that function will work over a VOIP line.

Mike

Mike,

All VoIP services that you can use with your regular home phones HAVE to have dial tone (that dial tone comes from the analog to IP box that the company installs in the home that takes the place of the telephone company's connection (at the NID) and connects to the VoIP providor's connection). The problem is when you make a "data call" over that line (which is exactly what the modems in the DBS receivers do). Some VoIP service work, MOST don't work reliably. Caller ID is a hit and miss issue with some VoIP providers. Time Warner had a BIG problem with it when they first came out with their VoIP but now they seem to have it working with most caller ID equipment (I don't know if it works with DISH receivers equipped with caller ID software).

I do know that with the local VoIP vendor (Time Warner), VoIP service won't work for modem calls made from home alarm systems and satellite receivers.

This is a BIG issue for receivers like the 522 because if the modem does not call in every so often you are charged an extra monthly fee for that receiver.
Bill R

#10 OFFLINE   Cyclone

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 02:27 PM

As far your statement that "it will be all they sell" that is many, many years away (if at all). There are just to many weaknesses is the current design of VoIP service (power outages, reliability, and internet insecurity being the main ones) for VoIP to catch on with the masses.

Well, I do agree that you'll be able to purchase POTS service for a long time. But I think that when VoIP is offered from the ILECs that it will be priced at a point where VoIP "will be all they sell" when it comes to voice. Ie the Customer will still have the choice, but will pick VoIP overwhelmingly.

Power outages will be tempered by a battery backup installed in your Optical Network termination. It will likely support about 6 hours of time operation.

2nd the ILECs will use a separate IP network for VoIP traffic and not the internet. That along with QoS implementations will lock down reliabiltiy and security. Your packets will likely only find their way in the internet if you call to a 3rd world country or a Internet only VoIP provider.
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#11 OFFLINE   Scott Greczkowski

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 03:06 PM

I have one of my receivers connected to a Vonage line and it works fine and also reports PPV orders.

Guess it depends on your VOIP service and how much bandwidth it has when it tried making its call.

#12 OFFLINE   gsel

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 05:49 PM

Ie the Customer will still have the choice, but will pick VoIP overwhelmingly.

Power outages will be tempered by a battery backup installed in your Optical Network termination. It will likely support about 6 hours of time operation.


Just like the cable companies, you will have a small backup time. I went through the outage here in Michigan a year and 1/2 ago, where we were without power for over a day. Cell phones and cable started dropping out in a few hours. My phone worked the whole time, my DSL worked, and my satellite worked. (I have a generator.) If I counted on cable and VOIP, where would I be? Cable took a long time to come back, as did the cell phone. Give me copper all the way from the telco office.

#13 OFFLINE   Rovingbar

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Posted 23 February 2005 - 09:56 PM

We've been using a VoIP for about a month and have notied some issues with the 921. It seems that the 921 makes about 10 calls per night before it either connects or gives up. Reading this thread, it makes sense that there would be a problem because the max frequency is only 90 kbps.

I remember many compatability issues when Caler ID first came out. Each region had its own system. It took many years to get all the bugs worked out. Actually there probably are still quite a few bugs with Caller ID. Anyway, I think that the current problems with VoIP are fairly minor. As more customers sign on, they will figure out how to deal with modem calls and other compatability issues. Its the way of technology: bleading edge, early adopters, early majorty, late majority... VoIP is still in early adopters, and the bugs don't really have to be eliminated until the majority phase.


It may not be as reliable as traditional service, but it is reliable enough for us.

So for serving the masses, I think the big issues are convenience and cost (ok reliability and compatability are probably #3 & #4). If VoIP is a pain to set-up an use, then people will stick with the traditional land lines, even at higher cost. I really don't think reliability is a major issue. Many folks are moving to cell phones in place of land lines. This demonstrates that people are more concerned with convenience than reliability. Besides, cell phones work just as well at home so why pay twice! They would rather put their $50 to extra minutes on their cell phone each month than to pay for basic phone service.

BTW: My local phone service installed 'digitial phone' service about 5 years ago. While it is more direct than VoIP, I think it is the same principal. I've faced the 'no phone during power failure' issue with my old service. Oddly enough, at that time my cell phone still worked. :)

Life is good,
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#14 OFFLINE   geoff

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:16 AM

I have been using Vonage VOIP service exclusively for a year and have had no problems with the alarm system or my 721 box, they connect first time, every time. I find I get higher connection speeds with my modem or fax on VOIP than I did with POTS (48kpbs vs 40Kbps) all for $14.95 a month, while local land line starts at $45/month with no bells and whistles and vonage has all the bells and whistles, I Don't want to sound like a vonage advertisement, but the truth hurts. Caller ID works flawlessly too.

Geoff

#15 OFFLINE   Scott Greczkowski

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 08:35 AM

I think the reason Dish may not want people using VOIP is because the fact the a person can have a phone number for anywhere in the country.

For example, I have a Detroit Vonage number although I live in Hartford, Connecticut.

This phone setup allows for "moving" much easier. :)

#16 OFFLINE   gsel

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:20 AM

I think the reason Dish may not want people using VOIP is because the fact the a person can have a phone number for anywhere in the country.

For example, I have a Detroit Vonage number although I live in Hartford, Connecticut.:)


You probably are partially correct, but if the VoIP vendors specify no faxes or alarm systems, then there must be something to the reliability of the data transfer, perhaps based on your IP vendor or other factors beyond their control. Those that work are lucky, and those that don't couldn't beat the odds. Therefore DISH is trying to eliminate a bunch of trouble calls for something beyong their control.

#17 OFFLINE   Egil222

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 09:48 AM

Vonage service works just fine with dish receivers if you know to put in a prefix code of *99. Just go into the receiver's menu then into the installation submenu and then the phone setup and check the little "use prefix" box and use 3 digits and then put in *99. Then all the stuff that uses the phone line works just fine.

The reason that things like fax machines, alarm systems and dish receivers have problems with voip lines normally is that voip data is compressed when it is moving thru the internet and some QoS stuff falls below spec for some devices.

Using *99 with vonage tells the vonage servers to shut off all compression on your line so things like dish receivers become perfectly happy using VOIP.

Sheesh you'd think some of you guys would check things out before posting stuff about a service you haven't used and obviously haven't learned the tips and tricks you need to use it.

#18 OFFLINE   kb7oeb

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:15 AM

As I understand it Dish doesn't look at caller ID they look at the ANI and I have read that Vonage ANI shows calls coming from a New York phone number.

#19 OFFLINE   n0qcu

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 10:20 AM

The problem with that is not all Dish receivers are able to have a * entered in the prefix. I know for fact that the 522 will not let you.

Vonage service works just fine with dish receivers if you know to put in a prefix code of *99. Just go into the receiver's menu then into the installation submenu and then the phone setup and check the little "use prefix" box and use 3 digits and then put in *99. Then all the stuff that uses the phone line works just fine.

The reason that things like fax machines, alarm systems and dish receivers have problems with voip lines normally is that voip data is compressed when it is moving thru the internet and some QoS stuff falls below spec for some devices.

Using *99 with vonage tells the vonage servers to shut off all compression on your line so things like dish receivers become perfectly happy using VOIP.

Sheesh you'd think some of you guys would check things out before posting stuff about a service you haven't used and obviously haven't learned the tips and tricks you need to use it.


Kevin

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#20 OFFLINE   geobernd

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Posted 24 February 2005 - 11:31 AM

As I understand it Dish doesn't look at caller ID they look at the ANI and I have read that Vonage ANI shows calls coming from a New York phone number.

There are actually two different ANI formats.
If they look at ANI (1) - the old format - they will see a random NY phone number - from the gateway that is used to cross to POTS.
If they look at ANI2 they will see the correct number (at least for both of my Vonage lines).
I don't know what they look at - I supsect it is ANI (1) as I have the same trouble calling the 800 number from my Vonage line... Once I became a customer I can override the phone number - but I couldn't call to sign up - the voice processing system refused to see that I am not an existing customer....




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