Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

Best way to view SD on 942?


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 18 June 2005 - 02:01 PM

I'm wondering how other people have been getting the best results viewing SD programming on the 942? What seems to work best for me is to just run straight composite at 480i off the 2nd tuner. I'm not sure if that makes sense. I have always thought that svideo or component or DVI would just produce better results. But I am surprised to find the 2nd tuner (off composite) does a better SD image than the 1st tuner (off DVI) with both connected to the same monitor. Do others see it the same way? It's so much better actually that I have set up my favorites lists so that all the SD channels appear on the 2nd tuner and all the HD channels are in the main tuner (some really short lists there). The composite image is actually seems to be at least as good as the image we get on the 508 that my wife stores her programs on (HD just isn't a big deal for her) that connects via svideo. I'm wondering how dish managed to get such good results from composite?

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

Mark Lamutt

    Your Neighborhood Liasion

  • Registered
  • 12,527 posts
Joined: Mar 23, 2002

Posted 18 June 2005 - 02:47 PM

That's what I've been saying since the beginning...the composite output from the 942 looks better to me than the svideo output from my 921, or either 508.
Mark Lamutt
markdl@dbstalk.com
Your DBSTalk.Com Community Liaison to Dish Network

#3 OFFLINE   dougmcbride

dougmcbride

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 91 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2005

Posted 18 June 2005 - 05:53 PM

I get what I consider to be very, very good SD PQ via component, 1080i and Stretch. In my case, I find the composite image to be good, but not as good as the component output and using the 942 to scale to 1080i as opposed to the 480p I get on composite letting the TV do the work. I also have a DVDO IScan HD deinterlacer/scaler that I used to use for Voom SD, but have found the processing the 942 does looks close enough that it isn't worth the hassle to hook it up.

You might want to try component just for grins. In any case, if you have not done any form of calibration of your display's inputs, it is hard to tell if it is the 942 or your display. Glad to hear your composite looks good though, especially since there is no SVideo.

Cheers,

Doug

#4 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 18 June 2005 - 07:43 PM

Just "discovered" another thread, "942 SD Quality" that had some good posts along these lines. I am still wondering what Dish did to get what they are apparently getting from composite. There is no way it should perform on a par with svideo but it seems that is the case.

#5 OFFLINE   kstevens

kstevens

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 533 posts
Joined: Mar 26, 2003

Posted 19 June 2005 - 09:06 AM

Since I needed to pipe the SD through out the house, I just use the RF connector (already had rg6 wired through out the house). It outputs a nice picture and it also allows me to use the TV's native stretch modes verses the receiver's. The 942's stretch modes suck compared to Pioneer's Natural Wide.


Ken

#6 OFFLINE   Bichon

Bichon

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 399 posts
Joined: Jun 04, 2003

Posted 19 June 2005 - 10:30 AM

I am still wondering what Dish did to get what they are apparently getting from composite. There is no way it should perform on a par with svideo but it seems that is the case.


Since the 942 doesn't have an S-video output, you are doing an apples-to-oranges comparison. Comparing the S-video output of your other receiver with the composite output of the 942 is more a comparison of the two receivers than a comparison of S-video vs. composite.

The artifacts introduced by separating brightness (Y) from color ©, which happen when using a composite or RF signal, are introduced in the TV (or VCR, or DVD recorder), NOT in the 942.

When comparing RF/composite vs S-video/component/DVI, what are you looking for? I use CNN's red and white on black logo to judge this. When watching composite or RF on an inexpensive TV with a mediocre (or poor) Y/C separator, the area where the red letters meet the white inset and black background will cause movement and flickering. Get right up close to the screen to see it. Compare it to a better TV with a 3D comb filter, or to a TV hooked up with S-video, component or DVI - and see how much cleaner the transition between colors is, and how it doesn't move or flicker.

#7 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 19 June 2005 - 04:22 PM

The configuration I have currently is composite from the 942 to a lite on dvd recorder then composite to a 53 RS Panasonic TV. I just placed an order for a "component to s-video adaptor" with the InFocus online store (abt $10.00 plus shipping). Once that arrives, I'll run the composite straight from the 942 to the TV and hook up the component outs to the s-video in on the Lite On. This should be a cheap solution to get improved DVD recordings until prices drop on good DVD recorders that have component inputs.

#8 OFFLINE   waltinvt

waltinvt

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 368 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2004

Posted 20 June 2005 - 06:07 AM

The configuration I have currently is composite from the 942 to a lite on dvd recorder then composite to a 53 RS Panasonic TV. I just placed an order for a "component to s-video adaptor" with the InFocus online store (abt $10.00 plus shipping). Once that arrives, I'll run the composite straight from the 942 to the TV and hook up the component outs to the s-video in on the Lite On. This should be a cheap solution to get improved DVD recordings until prices drop on good DVD recorders that have component inputs.


I was asking whether one of these existed a while ago. Please let us know how well it works.
A Moral Wrong Is Not A Civil Right:flag:

#9 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 23 June 2005 - 08:52 PM

I was asking whether one of these existed a while ago. Please let us know how well it works.


This looks like it will be a little more complicated than I initially thought. I'll have the InFocus component to s-video on Monday. But after some more review I think the s-video is actually a 7 pin not 4. I'll know for sure on Monday. I've also placed seperate orders to go from 7 pin to 4 pin just in-case. Those orders will take more time to get to me. I'll post as soon as I can say for sure if it works or not.

#10 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 28 June 2005 - 03:37 PM

So far, no go on the component to s-video. I really think it should work and am still trying. Because the InFocus adaptor is component to 7pin svideo I had 2 additional parts on order to complete the hook-up. One was a 7-pin to 4-pin adaptor and the other was a 7-pin female connector to connect the other two parts. Svideo.com emailed me today saying that the 7-pin female connector is no longer manufactured and they are out of stock. Looking at schematics of 7-pin and 4-pin it is evident that the 4 main pins are in the same spots on each and that the 3 extra pins serve no purpose in this set up. I removed the 3 extra pins and the oversized plastic guide at the bottom of the 7 pin svideo hook up to convert it to a 4 pin. I may have damaged it in the process. So far I am seeing no picture. I'm going to keep trying. If anyone has suggestions or knows if there is a reason this won't work please advise. Does the plastic guide part on the bottom serve any purpose?

#11 OFFLINE   Bichon

Bichon

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 399 posts
Joined: Jun 04, 2003

Posted 28 June 2005 - 05:04 PM

Hate to piss on your parade, but I don't think it will ever work.

There is no such thing as a 7 pin S-video connection in the TV/DVD player/VCR world. Those 7 pin S-video accessories that you are seeing are from the PC world. Let me explain. There isn't enough room on the back of a PC video card to have a VGA connector, a DVI connector, an S-video connector and a composite video connector. So what they did is to substitute a 7 pin mini-din connector for the regular 4 pin mini-din S-video connector. Pins 1-4 are normal S-video. Pin 5 is unused. Pins 6 and 7 carry composite video. So you can either plug in an 4 pin S-video cable and use it for S-video, or you can connected the supplied S-video to composite adapter, a cable the leaves the s-video pins (1-4) disconnected, and connects those extra pins (6 and 7) to a yellow RCA jack. You can't use the adapter cable that came with your video card to connect the S-video output of your DVD player or VCR to a composite TV, since those devices aren't outputting a composite signal on pins 6 and 7.

This is my theory: Certain In-Focus projectors have support for component video in silicon, but no room for component connectors on connection plate. So what they did was to provide a 7 pin mini-din connector that re-purposes the unused pins to carry the color difference (Pb and Pr) signals. (The luma signal (Y) carried on pins 1 and 3 of the S-video cable and the green RCA of a component cable, are identical). Since your DVD recorder doesn't have support for component on the unused pins, there is no way to wire it to make it work.

Question: Does In-Focus sell that cable you bought as a generic accessory, or do they sell it as an accessory applicable to specific projectors?

#12 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 29 June 2005 - 08:52 PM

Specific to several of their projectors (including the x-1). Before reading your post I decided to cut open the adaptor to see what connected to what. I am not sure (eyes aren't what they used to be) but it looks like they do not have the connections going as I had anticipated looking at diagnostics for standard 7pin and 4 pin connections. That said, I will do one more try. I found a 7pin female 4 pin male svideo cable that should connect to the in-focus adaptor. Just placed an order for it and another order for the in-focus. I agree that it probably won't work, but I'm going to find out one way or the other.

#13 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 08 July 2005 - 08:50 PM

Throwing in the towel. No luck on anything I tried. I did find one product that s-video.com used to offer but is no longer selling. The site had a side by side comparison of straight s-video versus component to s-video and the results did not look good. I guess I'll start looking for a dvd recorder with component input if dish decides not to put s-video output on it's mpeg4 dvr and if it's still a concern.

#14 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

Mark Lamutt

    Your Neighborhood Liasion

  • Registered
  • 12,527 posts
Joined: Mar 23, 2002

Posted 08 July 2005 - 10:19 PM

Did you try it with the composite outputs?
Mark Lamutt
markdl@dbstalk.com
Your DBSTalk.Com Community Liaison to Dish Network

#15 OFFLINE   Bichon

Bichon

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 399 posts
Joined: Jun 04, 2003

Posted 09 July 2005 - 12:41 AM

Throwing in the towel. No luck on anything I tried.


I'm not surprised. As I explained earlier, I was nearly certain that converting component to S-video would require active electronics, not a passive cable.

There are video switchers that can do this (perhaps this one? http://www.pcmall.co...dpno~148634.asp), as well as some home theater preamps/processors, but it probably isn't worth the investment.

#16 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 09 July 2005 - 07:07 PM

Did you try it with the composite outputs?


Yes. I experimented with composite out from the 942 to a simple radio shack s-video adaptor connecting to the s-video input on the Lite On 5005 which then connected to the TV via component. The color balances were never quite right. The 3D-Y/C digital comb filter on my TV handles the composite input directly fed from the 942 fine for general viewing. Recordings are a different thing. I know that Monster/Entech makes a fairly costly composite/s-video adaptor but the only consumer review I could find on it was negative. Then there's more expensive electronic converters ... but the point gets kind of lost. I'm very happy that the 942 allows you to view both the dvi and component at the same time. Eventually I should be looking at getting a dvd recorder with component input and stop trying to nickle and dime my way around the s-video...but I am going to hold on making any purchase along those lines until I see what they do with the mpeg4 receiver ouputs.

#17 OFFLINE   cebbigh

cebbigh

    Icon

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 27, 2005

Posted 09 July 2005 - 07:13 PM

I'm not surprised. As I explained earlier, I was nearly certain that converting component to S-video would require active electronics, not a passive cable.

There are video switchers that can do this (perhaps this one? http://www.pcmall.co...dpno~148634.asp), as well as some home theater preamps/processors, but it probably isn't worth the investment.


Well...you win some, you lose some. Had to try it anyway. Don't really want to throw more money away either. For the cost of one of those things, I'd be better off just getting a better dvd recorder.

#18 OFFLINE   waltinvt

waltinvt

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 368 posts
Joined: Feb 09, 2004

Posted 10 July 2005 - 05:01 AM

Maybe my eyesight isn't that good but I can't see that the dvds I've burned with my Pannasonic E85 are any worse with the 942 through composite than they were from my 811 through S-Video. I've gotten some real good copies and some not so good copies both ways.

It's hard to tell for certain because there's such a variation between programs and channels anyway. If I had my 811 still set up, I suppose I could make a side by side comparsion using the same program source.
A Moral Wrong Is Not A Civil Right:flag:

#19 OFFLINE   Bichon

Bichon

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 399 posts
Joined: Jun 04, 2003

Posted 10 July 2005 - 08:54 AM

Maybe my eyesight isn't that good but I can't see that the dvds I've burned with my Pannasonic E85 are any worse with the 942 through composite than they were from my 811 through S-Video.


Since y/c separation is done in the DVD recorder - not the 942, the fact that you are getting excellent results with your Panasonic doesn't necessarily mean that he will observe the same thing with his Lite-on.

Also, Walt, are you specifically looking for dot crawl and other typical Y/C separation artifacts when evaluating your results? I find the black/white/red color transitions in the CNN bug (logo) excellent for doing this. Get close to the set and look at the logo carefully with a recording made from composite, then compare it to the logo you see with an S-video or component connection.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...