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Guest Message by DevFuse

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when is mpeg4 supposed to start?


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89 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   TechnoCat

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 06:15 AM

Your analogy is invalid, and I've seen it many times before. Just because the 921 was a bad receiver doesn't mean you are entitled to a free upgrade.

I was referring to recent non-HD PVR purchasers, which is much more analogous than 921 upgrades. The 921 had a pretty short lifespan.

Was there a trade-in from the 510 to the 921?

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#42 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 10:54 AM

I was referring to recent non-HD PVR purchasers, which is much more analogous than 921 upgrades. The 921 had a pretty short lifespan.

Was there a trade-in from the 510 to the 921?


To be fair, that is sort of an apples to oranges comparison.

It is one thing for a company to offer new hardware with more bells & whistles and charge you for upgrades.... It is quite another for them to change the way their system works and require you to buy new hardware just to get the same level of service you have now.

A 510-921 upgrade is an upgrade that provides new features and more modern equipment... a 921-XXX MPEG4 receiver would potentially be a requirement in order to continue service.

The former is a nicety that you can pass on and still receive service... the latter would be something that if you didn't upgrade, you wouldn't get anything if they flip the all/none switch!

#43 OFFLINE   M Sparks

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:01 AM

TechnoCat, I'm still missing your point...maybe it's me. The HD receivers have always been sold at a premium.

Actually, I think I do understand your point, but I think you're missing part of the puzzle. Eventually, EVERYTHING will be in MPEG-4. MPEG-4 will allow DISH to add more services, which allows them to make more money and attract more customers. It's not a "new service" like HD was, although it will be sold to early adopters as such. They can't say "well, you'll need a new reciever to get that service." EVENTUALLY they will HAVE to replace people's equipment, because there won't BE any MPEG-2 service.

Let's say they add all the HD LILs for New York & LA. This helps attract new customers, who get new MPEG-4 receivers. But they still need to leave the MPEG-2 locals up, which wastes space. If they get MPEG-4 receivers to everyone in those areas, then thay can turn off the SD LIL channels, which frees up space for HD-LIL in other cities, which continues the cycle.

IF the 411 does indeed turn out to be the new base receiver, it's a key to understanding how this all will work. The fact that it's HD, but it cuts corners in other places (no UHF remote, ect), supports this theory.

So DISH offers free 411s to everyone in those cities. EVERYONE gets HD, EVERYONE gets MPEG-4, everything is easier for DISH. But for people with DVRs (even SD-DVRs), the 411 is not a fair trade.

So DISH gives them an option- take the 411 (perhaps with no extra receiver fee) and keep your current DVR, but you may not be able to record all your local or HD channels. Or pay an upgrade fee and get a 962. (I would expect a few other options as well- a dual tuner "422" (?) and a single tuner HD PVR.)

To use your analogy again- when the 921 came out, no one said "oh, BTW, your 510 will no longer get local channels and it will eventually stop working entirely- would you like to trade it in on a 921?"

DISH will use additional National-HD to lure some people into buying a new receiver at full price. People like me (who JUST dropped $700 on a 942) will hold out for a upgrade deal of some sort, but probably jump at the first one. (Personally, I'm counting on DISH getting to my HD-LIL market within a year.) Eventually the deals will get better, and EVENTUALLY, some people really will get totally free receivers.

Another way to look at it is that they will convert ALL HD to MPEG-4 first, and that HD customers will be the first to benefit from upgrade paths. I'm not sure if I buy that. Or maybe they will convert JUST Voom to MPEG-4. Those that are already subscribed may get first dibs on new recievers. Or since VOOM is going to be required to be in the "basic HD tier", perhaps the current HDpak channels become part of some basic package. ("America's Top 120 HD"?) Those channels stay on DISH 500 in MPEG-2 for now. Then, they come out with a NEW HD Pack, with Voom-21 and other new channels in MPEG-4 on 61.5 and 129. That way, they only need to convert Voomers first.

There are dozens of possibilities, but SOME people will get free or cheap receivers. And some will get suckered.

#44 OFFLINE   navychop

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:23 AM

I think there will be deals due to competition. If D* comes thru with generous offers, including free upgrades, then E* will have to offer deals about as good, just to keep customers and market share.

#45 OFFLINE   BobaBird

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:32 AM

HDMe has offered what I see as some very realistic speculation in post #40 as everything he said has already happened. Unlike the 942 analogy (there are no channels that only a 942 can receive) it is supported by history as this is how the HDTV channels were moved from QPSK to 8PSK modulation. Owners of the 5000 had to kick and scream and get "special treatment" (big topic at the time on AVSForums) to get an upgrade offer. What make that different from what will happen in a few years is that the 5000 still works, it's only obsolete for the optional HD channels.
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#46 OFFLINE   Jim Parker

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 11:47 AM

My opinion is that for existing customers, Dish will sell the 411/962 at full price to the early adopters, give trade ins after 4 to 6 months and give away the 411 after a few years.

So, do I pay full price for a 962 that has not been fully tested or stay with a known POS that is the 921? Since the 962 is supposed to be based on the 942, it will probably be more stable than the 921. After spending $1000 on the 921, I will most likely wait for a few months to see what problems the 962 does have. I had one of the very first 921s, having bought it Dec 31, 2003. Once burned, twice shy.

If the trade in is not enough for me, I may buy a 962 for the living room and move the 921 to the bedroom. At some later time Dish might increase the trade in. My wife mostly records her soaps there on a 510, so the HD is no big advantage, but it would be nice to have the dual tuners. Other options include trading in the 510 or a mothballed 501.

But, I will just wait and see how this all plays out.

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#47 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 12:05 PM

A local techy radio program stated that D* was going to swap out like kind HD receivers in their Mpeg4 conversion. PVR for PVR and Non PVR for Non PVR. If Dish does that then that is reasonable. If it is the big cash outlay then likely a number will move down the road and take new subscriber deals at other providers.

..doyle

#48 OFFLINE   DCDeac

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:04 PM

When I signed up for Dish 2 months ago both the Dish Rep and my local installation guy said they'd be swapping out anyone who had a 942 as first priority for MPEG 4 units.

It's absolutely possible, even likely, that they were bs'ing to get me to sign up. But they said the exact same thing (and they had no contact with each toher) so there must be SOME truth to it...

#49 OFFLINE   Jim Parker

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 01:11 PM

Dish should swap out the 921s as the first priority. It would be nice, but I'm not holding my breath.
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#50 OFFLINE   M Sparks

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 03:16 PM

The 921 AND the 942 should be of equal priority. Their owners are the best customers, and should be treated as such.

DISH would never give the 921 top priority because that would be admiting they made a mistake.

#51 OFFLINE   olgeezer

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 04:03 PM

The 921 AND the 942 should be of equal priority. Their owners are the best customers, and should be treated as such.

DISH would never give the 921 top priority because that would be admiting they made a mistake.


Charlie stated in a Chat, that the first folks that would be swapped out would be those that had HD from Dish, as that was the main reason too switch to MP4.

#52 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 04 October 2005 - 06:57 PM

It seems like they would go for the HD first, partly because HD needs more bandwidth and MPEG4 helps with that... and partly because the HD adopters tend to be more willing to spend money on the new tech.

Now, I'm in that weird limbo... because I was ok paying a lot for my muffler (old commercial) when I bought the 6000u I currently use... so I'm less inclined to bite again unless I'm given a good upgrade.

I figure I'll wait it out, unless they add a dozen "must-see-TV" HD channels all of a sudden in MPEG4 that I can't live without.

#53 OFFLINE   thxultra

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 07:59 AM

If I have to buy new hardware I see myself going cable, the on demand features and no equipment to buy would win me over at this point. I have been very happy with dish so far but would be mad if I had to buy new hardware to keep my current programming.

#54 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 09:46 AM

At this point for me, the most compelling HD is available OTA. Now that the new network season has started, I haven't watched anything on Voom in three weeks. I don't think I will be in the crowd that pays +$500 to upgrade my 6000 to a new Mpeg 4 receiver. I would spend a couple hundred to upgrade to an HD PVR but that is about it. If I don't upgrade, my 6000 will likely be worth mousenuts on ebay.

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#55 OFFLINE   TechnoCat

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:20 PM

At this point for me, the most compelling HD is available OTA.

When the wife and I contemplated the HD upgrade to our Dish, we reviewed what we watch. We're in the Seattle market, which has quite a few local stations. But none of our watching is OTA. We did watch Andromeda and Enterprise for a while, but everything else is on one of the following:
  • Comedy Channel
  • ABC Family Channel (Whose Line)
  • ESPN
  • SciFi Channel
  • Fox News / CNN
  • Fox Northwest Sports
  • Discovery
  • TNT/TBS/AMC
  • Sirius Radio (Hair Nation and Broadway Tunes mostly)
In some areas, TBS/TNT are OTA, but not here. The only exception to all this is that rarely I might, should I be surfing past, stop on a local team playing a game for a bit. But I don't do that more than a few times a year.
So for us, OTA HDTV would be utterly worthless. Plus we're far enough away, around some hills and surrounded by large trees, that it's unlikely. And the cable company for our area was still struggling to master analog; HDTV is not on their menu. But quite frankly we just don't find network television compelling.

#56 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 05 October 2005 - 06:59 PM

Of the stations on your list, Discovery, ESPN and TNT are the only ones that have any HD content. So did you decide to go with HD or wait until more stations you are interested in are available?

I have to admit, I am hooked on a number of the network drama series. ...Lost, 24, Boston Legal, Prison Break along with Over There on FX and wish it was in HD.

..Doyle

#57 OFFLINE   jimbos

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 10:21 AM

I just wanna know what the hell happened to MPEG3.

The same thing that happened to B-cell batteries...

#58 OFFLINE   DoyleS

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 10:42 AM

From Wikipedia-
MPEG-3 is the designation for a group of audio and video coding standards agreed upon by MPEG (Moving Picture Experts Group). MPEG-3 was designed to handle HDTV signals in the range of 20 to 40 Mbit/s.
It was soon discovered that similar results could be obtained through slight modifications to the MPEG-2 standard. Shortly thereafter, work on MPEG-3 was discontinued.
MPEG-3 should not be confused with MPEG-1 Part 3 Layer 3 (or MPEG-1 Audio Layer 3), commonly referred to as MP3.

..Doyle

#59 OFFLINE   TechnoCat

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Posted 06 October 2005 - 10:45 AM

Of the stations on your list, Discovery, ESPN and TNT are the only ones that have any HD content. So did you decide to go with HD or wait until more stations you are interested in are available?

We went with HD. We get HBO in HD also, not for everything but for enough. And HDNet is really cool; Hogan's Heros in HD is pretty stunning.

I don't think we'd notice the difference with the Sirius music channels though. :hurah:

#60 OFFLINE   saweetnesstrev

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Posted 10 October 2005 - 12:49 AM

What codec will the MPEG-4 be? H.264?? Also, im buying a HD Receiver, should i hold off? ty (im new also) :P ty trev




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