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Guest Message by DevFuse

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CBS HD on 61.5 now being down converted!!!


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88 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Gary Murrell

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 08:25 PM

CBS HD on 61.5 is now being converted to 720p with horrid 10.98 Mbps bitrate

http://www.satellite...ead.php?t=49354

this is obviously a mistake on Dish's part

:mad: :mad: :mad:

-Gary
Dish Setup:

129/110/119/61.5/148 -Sats
3 X DP34/3 X DP21 -Switching
942/6000/522/322/510 -Receivers
Everything Pak/NHL CI/Voom/HD Pak/CBS-HD/Locals -Programming

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#2 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 08:29 PM

Were you not asking E* to use 720p instead of 1280x1080i ?

Dish would have been better off having Voom or themselves convert to 1280x720p

http://dbstalk.com/s...65&postcount=49

JL

#3 OFFLINE   Gary Murrell

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 08:53 PM

If they were set on utilizing picture resolution distortion then 720p would be better than 1280x1080i

way to use my words out of context

the answer here is to question Corporate Dish, not me, God this forum :rolleyes:

-Gary
Dish Setup:

129/110/119/61.5/148 -Sats
3 X DP34/3 X DP21 -Switching
942/6000/522/322/510 -Receivers
Everything Pak/NHL CI/Voom/HD Pak/CBS-HD/Locals -Programming

#4 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 08:57 PM

It's a fair question. It's obvious that you really would prefer 1920/1080i with a high bitrate but that just isn't going to happen. Even with the massive amount of bandwidth E* has, they have to conserve.

JL

#5 OFFLINE   Ghostwriter

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:59 PM

You know I am beginning to wear thin with E* cutting corners. CBS transmits in 1920x1080i so keep it that way. You have had it that way till now, how come all these HD changes now. I think this is also the worst possible time of the year for E* to be messing with things. I had a few Dish products on my wishlist that I have scratched off, I for one will wait till their next HD chat to make a decision on my next move. No MPEG4 receivers/PocketDish in my home from E* until THEY figure out what the heck they are doing.

I agree with you Gary, there are a few people here that back E* blindly as if they can do absolutely nothing wrong. If they do have massive amounts of bandwidth, please use it! And BTW where is my refund for losing OLN???

#6 OFFLINE   Mike D-CO5

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 10:38 PM

I may sound stupid but I am going to ask it anyway. When you set your satellite receiver to 1080i output, doesn't your box upscale the picture quality to 1080i anyway?

I personaly have my 942 sat receiver set to 720p , since it gives me a much clearer picture on most of my locals and other national sat channels. My tv does 1080i but it doesn't look as good as when the receiver is set to 720p.

Maybe Dish is trying to save room and bandwith by doing 720p and hoping the receiver will upscale the image anyways. I think that most people really can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i anyways unless they sit right up on the screen. Most people sit about 10feet away in the average living room. If you sit to close the picture doesn't look as good anyways on regular sd sat channels.

IN Sound & Vision magazine for January 2006 , there is an article in Tech Talk about the 720p broadcasts and why they look different. He says in the article by David RAnada:

"If you want the most lifelike reproduction of motion, then a live- action 720p signal is what you should feed your HDTV . It's often overlooked that the total information content of a 720p signal is about EQUAL to that of a 1080i signal , but is distributed differently. What a 720p signal gives up in spatial resolution- which you many not even see- it makes up for in temporal resolution by carrying 60 full frames per second vs the 30 frames per second of a 1080i signal. "

He goes on to talk about 1080 progressive:

"But 1080p will look like 720p if the combination of screen size and viewing distance puts the screen at your eyes' resolution limit. Don't go looking - or paying- for something you may not be able to see."

So maybe Dish is counting on putting all of the hd channels in 720p, since it too is an hd standard . IF it doesn't look noticably different to people and the receiver will upscale it anyways to 1080i for those who want it to, why should it matter?

#7 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 16 December 2005 - 11:07 PM

CBS HD on 61.5 is now being converted to 720p with horrid 10.98 Mbps bitrate

http://www.satellite...ead.php?t=49354

this is obviously a mistake on Dish's part

:mad: :mad: :mad:

-Gary


I don't get CBSHD (watching my local free OTA) but I agree this is a mistake if Dish does this, since CBS looks spectacular in 1080i.

However... I hate to say "I told you so"... but all those emails to Dish from you guys saying "720p is better than 1280x1080i" must have sunk in... and you actually convinced them that you would accept even less quality!

I was afraid something like this might happen if folks who didn't know better wrote Dish too much and let them know that a lot of people don't know what is going on...

:(

#8 OFFLINE   kstevens

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 05:54 AM

I may sound stupid but I am going to ask it anyway. When you set your satellite receiver to 1080i output, doesn't your box upscale the picture quality to 1080i anyway?

I personaly have my 942 sat receiver set to 720p , since it gives me a much clearer picture on most of my locals and other national sat channels. My tv does 1080i but it doesn't look as good as when the receiver is set to 720p.

Maybe Dish is trying to save room and bandwith by doing 720p and hoping the receiver will upscale the image anyways. I think that most people really can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080i anyways unless they sit right up on the screen. Most people sit about 10feet away in the average living room. If you sit to close the picture doesn't look as good anyways on regular sd sat channels.

IN Sound & Vision magazine for January 2006 , there is an article in Tech Talk about the 720p broadcasts and why they look different. He says in the article by David RAnada:

"If you want the most lifelike reproduction of motion, then a live- action 720p signal is what you should feed your HDTV . It's often overlooked that the total information content of a 720p signal is about EQUAL to that of a 1080i signal , but is distributed differently. What a 720p signal gives up in spatial resolution- which you many not even see- it makes up for in temporal resolution by carrying 60 full frames per second vs the 30 frames per second of a 1080i signal. "

He goes on to talk about 1080 progressive:

"But 1080p will look like 720p if the combination of screen size and viewing distance puts the screen at your eyes' resolution limit. Don't go looking - or paying- for something you may not be able to see."

So maybe Dish is counting on putting all of the hd channels in 720p, since it too is an hd standard . IF it doesn't look noticably different to people and the receiver will upscale it anyways to 1080i for those who want it to, why should it matter?


Then there is something wrong with your set. I can tell a big difference between a 1920x1080 signal and a 1280x720p signal. 2 of my locals broadcaste in 720p and the other 3 are 1080i. The 720p signals are always a bit more grainy on my tv.


Ken

#9 OFFLINE   tsmacro

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 08:28 AM

And BTW where is my refund for losing OLN???




Didn't you hear? They're using the money they're saving from not paying for OLN to pay for ESPNU, CSTV & the NFL network! :lol:


"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair." - Douglas Adams

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#10 OFFLINE   Mike D-CO5

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 09:14 AM

Then there is something wrong with your set. I can tell a big difference between a 1920x1080 signal and a 1280x720p signal. 2 of my locals broadcaste in 720p and the other 3 are 1080i. The 720p signals are always a bit more grainy on my tv.


Ken



Funny it is the exact opposite on my tv. My receiver makes the picture look more smoother in 720p than 1080i.

The point of the article was that all the hype about 1080 p is just that. The human eye can only see so much detail and depending on the distance you set from your tv , is whether you will notice the interlaced pq vs a progressive.

Either way I think if Dish does 720p it will still be a recognized hd standard and the receiver itself will upscale it to 1080i anyways. Most people won't notice the difference or care , as long as the picture looks great from a regular viewing distance.

#11 OFFLINE   SummitAdvantageRetailer

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 09:50 AM

Some people have TV's that have native resolution of 720p, namely the LCD HDTV owners. At that native resolution, 720p may look better than 1080i though the jury is still out there on that.

But DISH needs to keep CBS in 1080i unless announced to change so. DISH is losing some support with me as I deal with many int'l customers and taking SBS and Channel 1 Russia away WITHOUT notice cost us a lot of money and headache. And since I'm a big HDTV fan, down-rezzing the Voom channels and now this CBS East is getting pretty annoying. GIVE US A NOTICE, DISH! At least state why you're doing this!

#12 OFFLINE   jrb531

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 10:05 AM

By my calculations:

1280x1080 = 1,382,400 / 2 (interlaced) = 691200
1280x720 = 921,600 (+33.3%)

Yes I know compression makes these numbers not very accurate but the same compression affects both and it seems to me that 720p is clearly superior.

Now my old HD set does not do 720p but only 1080i so perhaps the quality depends more on how well your set/box "converts" the picture.

What percentage of HD sets can see 1920x1080?

I am more concerned about the bitrate (compression) and I would far far rather have SD "resolution" with a higher bitrate rather than a higher resolution with a lower bitrate.

Some people seem to be so focused on resolution that they forget that resolution is only important...

1. When your set can use that resolution
2. When the bitrate is high enough so that the PQ does not go in the toilet.

Transmitting a higher resolution just so that 5% (or less) of the HD users can get a slightly better picture (those with the cream of HD sets) and then having to cut corners (lower bitrates / less channels) for "everyone" seems silly at best.

Why not tell Dish to put up 20 more birds and remove all compression? One channel per transponder would be better LOL.

Of course who will be able to afford the $2000 a month bill :)

Maybe removing stupid and utter waste of bandwidth channels might help? Demo channel? HD cartoon channel? I could go through the SD channels but that is a slipery slope :)

-JB

#13 OFFLINE   boylehome

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 10:28 AM

I am more concerned about the bitrate (compression) and I would far far rather have SD "resolution" with a higher bitrate rather than a higher resolution with a lower bitrate.

-JB

I agree. Either 720p or 1080i look most excellent with a high bit rate in various aspect formats, but a low bit rate renders picture quality to cr*p.

#14 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:48 AM

I'm trying to find the exact wording of the FCC requirement that stations within a market be given equivilent bandwidth. I keep finding the rule as it refers to distant channels not getting more bandwidth than the local version and significantly viewed channels not getting more bandwidth than the local version but not the rule I'm looking for.

I know I've read it in the FCC rules that secondary retransmissions such as E*/D*'s cannot favor one station over another in bandwidth.

The reason why I'm looking is that we MAY be seeing some effects of the law on what E* is doing to CBS-HD. As an individual digital TV station there are no others to compare CBS-HD to ... but when the NY market has all the major networks up the idea of "equivilent bandwidth" comes into play. If E* left CBS-HD at 1080i and gave the signal a third of a transponder then all of the other NY HDs would have to have a third of a transponder.

It looks like with 720p E* will be doing four channels per transponder (MPEG2/8PSK) - which means they can almost fit a digital market on one transponder. Going three channels per transponder pushes E* to needing nearly two full transponders per digital market.

E* is talking that a year from now there will be as many as 60 local digital markets. If they all have five active network channels we are at 300 channels - 75 transponders full at 4 per TP or 100 transponders full at 3 per TP. Going with the true HD format of 720p and the 1/4 TP bandwidth they have chosen gives 33% more markets than if they are forced to stay at 1/3 TP.

We've had the discussion before about bit rates ... the less you put in to the blender the less you have to crush up. E* is going to try to get as many channels on a TP as possible so they can get as many channels and HD markets up as possible. Starting with 720p gives them less bits to crush into the available space.

No one promised that satellite fed channels would look as good as terrestrial feeds. DBS has been attacked on PQ issues since they started - the original C-Band quality came from having one feed per transponder - someone figured out how to multiplex six per transponder - DBS routinely does 12 SDs per transponder. Compression is a fact of life.

If we want to demand of E* that they get more local markets up in HD than D* we are going to have to accept that they will have to find a place to put them all - not just the market we receive but the others as well. The way that satellite companies find a place to put their channels is by managing the space they have within the rules that the FCC and congress has set forth. (Which is why upliking one super high quality HD feed of each network and giving it to all customers in the US doesn't work ... the law doesn't allow it.)

When it comes down to it I believe E* is doing the best that they can within the resources they have. Perhaps when MPEG4 comes along they will be able to do six 1080i channels per TP ... (there is a disturbance in the force - a massive shout of NO to six channels per TP before anyone has seen the PQ). This is DBS. Don't expect c-band perfection.

JL

#15 OFFLINE   tnsprin

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:10 PM

CBS HD on 61.5 is now being converted to 720p with horrid 10.98 Mbps bitrate

http://www.satellite...ead.php?t=49354

this is obviously a mistake on Dish's part

:mad: :mad: :mad:

-Gary

I know someone is saying this but are we sure we should believe it?
Ex Dish subscriber
Fios TV subscriber on 3/8/10

#16 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:18 PM

Yes. I don't doubt Gary's findings on CBS-HD.

JL

#17 OFFLINE   Dave

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:11 PM

So it doesn't matter if E is trying to please everyone as long as they please just the few. Is this what you are saying. They do have 9 or 10 Sat's in the air compared to Directv. They are trying to move forward in leaps and bounds ahead of Cable and Directv. The TV manufacturers are actually downgrading the signal in HD TV's. It use to be that everything was 1080i. Not any more. A lot of the plasma's and DLP's , and LCD's are now 720p's. Just about the only thing out there left in 1080i is the big heavy projection TV's. Yet some would like to blame E for this problem. If you only have a 720p TV how do you make it play in 1080i? Granted some of you do have the older sets that play in 1080i. But even the manufacturers are trying to do away with it to save on bandwidth for the Cable and Sat companies. You can only squeeze so much bandwidth and so many channels out of a transponder. Perhaps a few will donate money for all these Sats for everyone to get 1080i instead of the 720p. And then perhaps you can buy a 1080i TV for all who want it. Or perhaps if you are really this unhappy you should go on to the buggy R15's and R10's at Direct TV. Yes Direct's receivers also have many problems that need to be worked out. Maybe Direct will get all these HDTV channels that you have now with Dish.

#18 OFFLINE   hokieengineer

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 02:25 PM

JL: I could see how that equal bandwidth rule could come into play, however they currently have abc,nbc,cbs on one TP and fox on its own TP. Fox is averaging ~14mbit/s, while cbs/abc/nbc average between 9-12mbit/s.

There is no way they are cramming 4 HD channels per TP unless they want some really pissed off HD customers. 9Mbit/s even for 1280i is cutting it pretty low. So, what I think we'll see is maybe abc/cbs on one TP and nbc/fox on the 2nd. Having fox by itself doesnt make sense, unless they plan on adding the local pbs and WB in HD :lol:

#19 OFFLINE   hokieengineer

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 02:34 PM

So it doesn't matter if E is trying to please everyone as long as they please just the few. Is this what you are saying. They do have 9 or 10 Sat's in the air compared to Directv. They are trying to move forward in leaps and bounds ahead of Cable and Directv. The TV manufacturers are actually downgrading the signal in HD TV's. It use to be that everything was 1080i. Not any more. A lot of the plasma's and DLP's , and LCD's are now 720p's. Just about the only thing out there left in 1080i is the big heavy projection TV's. Yet some would like to blame E for this problem. If you only have a 720p TV how do you make it play in 1080i? Granted some of you do have the older sets that play in 1080i. But even the manufacturers are trying to do away with it to save on bandwidth for the Cable and Sat companies. You can only squeeze so much bandwidth and so many channels out of a transponder. Perhaps a few will donate money for all these Sats for everyone to get 1080i instead of the 720p. And then perhaps you can buy a 1080i TV for all who want it. Or perhaps if you are really this unhappy you should go on to the buggy R15's and R10's at Direct TV. Yes Direct's receivers also have many problems that need to be worked out. Maybe Direct will get all these HDTV channels that you have now with Dish.


So we should just sit back and take it then? I have a choice when I buy a tv. I also have a choice when I choose my satellite provider. I thought Dish was doing a pretty damn good job with their HD offerings up till a few weeks ago. The voom debacle, and now these local channel downrezing makes me wonder WTF is going on here.

I expect this kind of crap from Directv after reading all the complaints about HDLite. I DONT want it to happen with Dish as well. That is why we are making a stink out of this. I feel Dish does listen to its customers and that we have a chance to make our feelings heard. We know they read these boards, and we know they listen when a lot of people call/write in to complain (as shown by the voom campaign). Now, we have not seen any direct action yet, but I am willing to wait until these channels are officially launched before judging the voom situation.

As to CBS-E HD, this is an available subscribed channel. It was switched with no warning on Wednesday. I feel either they don't know about the situation they caused, or they are testing the waters. I and a lot others are here to let them know we are NOT happy about this change and hope they take that into consideration.

I'm not sure what TV you have, but I can tell a difference between 720p and 1080i on my 720p projector. Watching the NFL on CBS just gives the screen that "pop" of super clarity. I'm still up in the air on the "motion blur" of 1080i for fast moving scenes. However CBS always in MY OPINION looks better with their NFL broadcasts than Fox in 720p. Thus, I'd really hate to see dish mangle the cbs 1080i broadcast into a 720p one.

#20 OFFLINE   rthomp03

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Posted 17 December 2005 - 03:34 PM

By my calculations:

What percentage of HD sets can see 1920x1080?

-JB

Mine can and it's awesome.:D




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