Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo

CBS HD on 61.5 now being down converted!!!


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
88 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Foxbat

Foxbat

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 207 posts
Joined: Aug 01, 2003

Posted 19 December 2005 - 12:10 PM

I think everyone is missing the point with the 1080i vs. 720p argument here. CBS originates in 1080i; therefore, a conversion must be made to 720p. If Dish had decided to try 1280x1080i, the image would lose horizontal resolution, but kept the same vertical resolution, and more importantly, the same interlacing. To convert to 720p from 1080i you need to deinterlace. Is Dish cheating and taking each 540 line field and scaling it up to 720 lines, or are they building up a 1080 line buffer with both fields, then scaling down to 720?

Either way, Dish is taking CBS's 1920x1080i signal, decoding it, converting it to 720p, encoding it, uplinking it to the satellite, broadcasting to your receiver, where it may undergo another conversion back to 1080i (since many sets won't accept 720p from an external input).
--Roland W. Fox

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#42 OFFLINE   thxultra

thxultra

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 427 posts
Joined: Feb 01, 2005

Posted 19 December 2005 - 01:09 PM

Brings up the question if sat will ever be able to handel hd as well as cable. I have heard many storys that sat will never be able to have the bandwith cable has. Not to mention sat has to share its bandwith with many local markets.

#43 OFFLINE   Mike123abc

Mike123abc

    Hall Of Fame/Supporter

  • Gold Members
  • 2,818 posts
Joined: Jul 19, 2002

Posted 19 December 2005 - 03:58 PM

Brings up the question if sat will ever be able to handel hd as well as cable. I have heard many storys that sat will never be able to have the bandwith cable has. Not to mention sat has to share its bandwith with many local markets.


It is hard to say at this point. Cable can beat satellite if they eliminate the analog stations, which they are probably going to do a few years from now. But, by the time cable gets around to eliminating the analog channels the satellite companies will have a bunch of new satellites. So, it is really going to be interesting, not to mention the outside players putting in fiber everywhere.

Right now most of the cable capacity goes into the analog channels. If cable were to eliminate the analog and have a state of the art cable plant, they could deliver 250-300+ full resolution HD channels. Most cable companies already carry so many analog channels and have not updated their plants that they cannot carry more than 10-20 channels. That is why they have been fighting must carry digital locals, they do not want to have all their remaining capacity filled by minor locals in digital.

It will probably remain as it is now... some areas cable will be the best deal with the best resolution and in other areas it will be satellite or a third party like fiber.

#44 OFFLINE   Jon Spackman

Jon Spackman

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 650 posts
Joined: Feb 07, 2005

Posted 19 December 2005 - 04:21 PM

All digital cable is happening now in some areas. Newport beach, CA has an area where Adelphia has 100% digital service. They had to replace the amplifiers that boosted to signal to multiple tv's because they were not compatible with their all digital system. All i can say is that the locals digital looked very good. I think this is going to happen elsewhere soon.


Jon

#45 OFFLINE   Bill R

Bill R

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,498 posts
Joined: Dec 20, 2002

Posted 19 December 2005 - 05:47 PM

Brings up the question if sat will ever be able to handle hd as well as cable.


Are you kidding? Have you ever seen HD on cable?

While it might not be the same on all cable systems, some (especially mine), does a horrific job on HD. They over-compress it and, on top of that, their digital set top (DVR) boxes sometime can't handle recording a HD channel while you are watching another one.

While HD via satellite might never be as good as OTA HD, I hope that it will never be as bad as my local cable company provides.
Bill R

#46 OFFLINE   Bill R

Bill R

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,498 posts
Joined: Dec 20, 2002

Posted 19 December 2005 - 06:24 PM

All digital cable is happening now in some areas. Newport beach, CA has an area where Adelphia has 100% digital service.


Jon


Can cable systems currently do that? I thought that the FCC rules say that the cable companies must provide their basic tier (which, at the very least, must include OTA local channels) unscrambled and must not require a cable box. Did I miss a FCC rule change?
Bill R

#47 OFFLINE   tnsprin

tnsprin

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,129 posts
Joined: Mar 15, 2003

Posted 19 December 2005 - 09:39 PM

I am sorry but I must ask again. What evidence do we have that they are converting WCBS-dt to 720P. Tonight I have been recording CSI Miami tonight both from Satellite and Direct frin WCBS-dt in NY. I am having trouble seeing any difference in picture. Alright the TV I am using is a first generatrion HDTV toshiba (tws65h85) but shouldn't I see some significant difference in some of the frames.
Ex Dish subscriber
Fios TV subscriber on 3/8/10

#48 OFFLINE   hokieengineer

hokieengineer

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 89 posts
Joined: Jul 31, 2004

Posted 19 December 2005 - 10:27 PM

I am sorry but I must ask again. What evidence do we have that they are converting WCBS-dt to 720P. Tonight I have been recording CSI Miami tonight both from Satellite and Direct frin WCBS-dt in NY. I am having trouble seeing any difference in picture. Alright the TV I am using is a first generatrion HDTV toshiba (tws65h85) but shouldn't I see some significant difference in some of the frames.


Debug message from VLC while playing back the transport stream recorded from CBS-E HD from TP17:

main debug: picture in 1280x720 (0,0,1280x720), chroma I420, ar 16:9, sar 1:1

Gary and others with transport recording ability can also confirm this.

I find it interesting some people have seen flashing effects after this change took place. That really sounds like a problem between dish doing their conversion to 720p and a customers receiver either reconverting to 1080i output or having problems processing the converted transport stream.

#49 OFFLINE   saweetnesstrev

saweetnesstrev

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 289 posts
Joined: Oct 08, 2005

Posted 20 December 2005 - 05:47 AM

What channel is CBS-HD i just got HD, and i dont see it and im in the cleveland area :) tyvm.

#50 OFFLINE   JohnH

JohnH

    Hall Of Fame

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 7,802 posts
Joined: Apr 22, 2002

Posted 20 December 2005 - 08:27 AM

CBSHD East is 9483. CBSHD West is 9484. You will not see either unless you have a subscription to those specific channels. You also would need a dish pointed at 61.5 or 148 for East or West.

#51 OFFLINE   voripteth

voripteth

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 216 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2005

Posted 20 December 2005 - 10:01 AM

I find it interesting some people have seen flashing effects after this change took place. That really sounds like a problem between dish doing their conversion to 720p and a customers receiver either reconverting to 1080i output or having problems processing the converted transport stream.


I'm using a 942 to display in 1080i for my Sony 60" SXRD which displays 1080p.

#52 OFFLINE   saweetnesstrev

saweetnesstrev

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 289 posts
Joined: Oct 08, 2005

Posted 20 December 2005 - 11:07 AM

You have to buy CSHD East seperately? Oh i get it ,,, it costs 1.50 dollar more,, Can Cleveland area people get this i have my second dish pointed at 61.5 :)

#53 OFFLINE   bmanner

bmanner

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 27 posts
Joined: Jan 19, 2004

Posted 20 December 2005 - 11:45 AM

I did see some odd graphic glitches this weekend on CBS HD. Every few minutes I would see a screen flash. With careful use of freeze frame I was able to see that it was a video frame shifted to the right about a half screen. Is this an artifact of DISH changing from 1080i to 720p?


I am seeing the same screen flash on CBS HD (East Feed) and it started after the switch to TP17 on 61.5. I have a 6000 receiver. It may be my imagination, but I am also seeing some "jitter" in fast moving objects that I did not see before.

#54 OFFLINE   thxultra

thxultra

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 427 posts
Joined: Feb 01, 2005

Posted 20 December 2005 - 01:55 PM

Are you kidding? Have you ever seen HD on cable?

While it might not be the same on all cable systems, some (especially mine), does a horrific job on HD. They over-compress it and, on top of that, their digital set top (DVR) boxes sometime can't handle recording a HD channel while you are watching another one.

While HD via satellite might never be as good as OTA HD, I hope that it will never be as bad as my local cable company provides.



I find that interesting as hd on comcast in the chicago suburbs is actually very clear. I can't see a difference between it and my off the air.

#55 OFFLINE   hammerdown

hammerdown

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 28 posts
Joined: Jan 20, 2004

Posted 20 December 2005 - 02:52 PM

I don't subscribe to CBS HD from E*, but my local PBS OTA started downcoverting from 1080i to 720p about a year ago. I can see a big difference! I remember PBS shows in 1080i, and repeats of the same shows now in 720p look mushy/soft.

Hammer

#56 OFFLINE   rrfrey

rrfrey

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 8 posts
Joined: Dec 01, 2005

Posted 20 December 2005 - 07:42 PM

My local PBS "HD" is transmitted alongside two SD feeds on the same channel. Because of this apparent channel sharing, I believe the HD is really only getting half bandwidth. It is 1080i but the picture is just awful.

#57 OFFLINE   tnsprin

tnsprin

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 2,129 posts
Joined: Mar 15, 2003

Posted 24 December 2005 - 07:13 AM

Others (on that other site) are now claiming the its not 720p but 1080i LITE. Anyone KNOW?
Ex Dish subscriber
Fios TV subscriber on 3/8/10

#58 OFFLINE   James Long

James Long

    Ready for Uplink!

  • Super Moderators
  • 39,510 posts
Joined: Apr 17, 2003

Posted 24 December 2005 - 10:40 AM

Others (on that other site) are now claiming the its not 720p but 1080i LITE. Anyone KNOW?

Gary hasn't updated his website in a while, he's still got CBS-HD listed as 1920x1080i 16.6mbps

http://home.bigsandy...ll/bitrate.html

I don't understand what is so different about "HD lite" that gets people so worked up. Satellite has been "SD lite" for many years (and getting lighter). Digital HD even uncompressed has it's own set of problems - and there is no way that ANY satellite provider is going to pass the full HD signal on to the consumer. Nobody has the bandwidth.

Some day we will see HD signals in MPEG4 with 7 Mbps video streams. Modified 6000's won't see them (they only do MPEG2) but they will be there. Will they be "HD lite" - by some definition they must be since no satellite carrier will EVER transmit the source signal unmodified. After one has accepted that fact it is all just a matter of degrees.

JL

#59 OFFLINE   robill

robill

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 25 posts
Joined: May 13, 2005

Posted 24 December 2005 - 12:25 PM

I don't understand what is so different about "HD lite" that gets people so worked up. Satellite has been "SD lite" for many years (and getting lighter). Digital HD even uncompressed has it's own set of problems - and there is no way that ANY satellite provider is going to pass the full HD signal on to the consumer. Nobody has the bandwidth.


JL
I don't understand how you can't 'understand'..... Yes, we've put up with satellite SD lite for years, but knowing HD wasn't far away made it bearable. Walking into local stores and getting a chance to see the spectacular video being shown on Dish's own HD Demo channel made the future of TV look very exciting.
Well now that I've bought an HD receiver and TV things seem be going backwards. I've had my system just long enough to know how fantastic HD can look, but unfortunately not all channels look as good as they did a short time ago.
The quality of the video not the quantity is what will get my programming dollar.

#60 OFFLINE   booger

booger

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 192 posts
Joined: Oct 31, 2005

Posted 24 December 2005 - 02:08 PM

I recall seeing an analog HD display MANY years ago at an NAB convention. I have NEVER seen anything come even close since.


Has anyone here been able to compare 4DTV's HD to E*? I hear c-band high def is unbeatable. If so, what are the spec's?




spam firewall