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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Down Rez Blues!


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19 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 12:23 PM

The 622 is a pretty nice box, except for one HUGE thing. I understand that D* thinks it must down rez pctures out of the S-Video outputs, which I can live with, but they also butcher the aspect ratio! That is right, they take all 16:9 content and squezze it into a 4:3 frame. While I can live with 480i, I don't know if I can live with Jack Bauer being gaining six inches and lossing 30 pounds!
Maybe there is a way to convert the Component output - which features a correct aspect ratio - and convert it to S-Video so that my analog S-Video recorder can at least record the programs in 16:9. Any ideas?
Best,
Steve
:mad:

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#2 OFFLINE   c_caz

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 01:00 PM

Hmmm. How do you have this hooked up and what aspect ratio are you using on your HDTV and the 622? I set my TV to Full (what I would use for true 16x9 content), the 622 to Normal, and it looks great on my Pioneer DVDRW/HDD box via SVideo. It looks noticeably better then my 811 hookup via Svid, with less jagged lines, better color and better sound/vid sync. I'd mess with those settings a bit on your setup.

#3 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 01:30 PM

Hmmm. How do you have this hooked up and what aspect ratio are you using on your HDTV and the 622? I set my TV to Full (what I would use for true 16x9 content), the 622 to Normal, and it looks great on my Pioneer DVDRW/HDD box via SVideo. It looks noticeably better then my 811 hookup via Svid, with less jagged lines, better color and better sound/vid sync. I'd mess with those settings a bit on your setup.

c_caz -

I've got the 622 output to my TV on HDMI, and optical to my Denon receiver that I use to switch and for surround sound. I also output both the S-Video and Composite video, as well as analog L/R to the Denon where it is switched to my JVC DMX-1 VCR/DVD Recorder (although I tried a direct connection - no change). Everything that was 16:9 is squashed into 4:3.

I am a bit lost with your reply, what is the "Normal" on the 622? Maybe I am missing something. I have the 622 set up to output 16:9, but maybe I should spoof it to 4:3 or something to force letterbox? I would not mind recording in letterbox, because it is easier to use TV controls to "Full" "Zoom," or "Wide Zoom" a picture. Once I record onto a VHS or DVD-R, I have to use "Full" just to get a 4:3.

MANY thnaks for you help for a very frustrated 622 (maybe) fanboy.
Best,
Steve

#4 OFFLINE   c_caz

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 01:47 PM

I meant the 622 aspect ratio of "Normal". Toggle through the ratios via the * Format key on the lower left. When I set this to "Normal" and my HDTV to 4X3 I see the 16x9 squished picture you are seeing. If I set my TV to Full (as I would with a anamorphic or widescreen DVD) it streches to 16x9 and looks better. I think this is the key why the 622 recordings to DVD recorder look better then the 811 as the 811 was always letterboxed in 4x3 then had to be streched by my TV via a 'Zoom' mode. The 622 based recordings by default provide more lines.

#5 OFFLINE   Jerry G

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 01:50 PM

The 622 is a pretty nice box, except for one HUGE thing. I understand that D* thinks it must down rez pctures out of the S-Video outputs, which I can live with, but they also butcher the aspect ratio! That is right, they take all 16:9 content and squezze it into a 4:3 frame.
:mad:


Why are you mad at Dish and the 622? There's nothing wrong. First of all, you mention D*. Are you talking about DirecTV? Dish Network (Echostar) is referred to as E*.

Why are you angry about "down rez pictures" via S-Video? Are you not aware of the fact that S-Video is always 480i? It is not capable of 480p, 720, or 1080.

Regarding the "butchering" of the aspect ratio, I have no idea of how your display or recorder handles an anamorphic 480i output, but my 16x9 displays all handle the 480i 622 output correctly. Nothing is squeezed or altered unless I change the display's aspect ratio to something other than "Full" (it may be labelled something else on different displays.

Maybe I'm not understanding what it is that you're complaining about, but something seems to be wrong with your setup or display. The 622 is behaving correctly.

#6 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:36 PM

Why are you mad at Dish and the 622? There's nothing wrong. First of all, you mention D*. Are you talking about DirecTV? Dish Network (Echostar) is referred to as E*.

Why are you angry about "down rez pictures" via S-Video? Are you not aware of the fact that S-Video is always 480i? It is not capable of 480p, 720, or 1080.

Regarding the "butchering" of the aspect ratio, I have no idea of how your display or recorder handles an anamorphic 480i output, but my 16x9 displays all handle the 480i 622 output correctly. Nothing is squeezed or altered unless I change the display's aspect ratio to something other than "Full" (it may be labelled something else on different displays.

Maybe I'm not understanding what it is that you're complaining about, but something seems to be wrong with your setup or display. The 622 is behaving correctly.



Jerry -

My apologies for the slip of the finger - yes it is E* that I am upset with. As to my display, or my recorder, my display is a Sony XBR 960, and it handles all aspect ratious, whether 16:9 or 4:3. As to the recorder, the high-end JVC DR-MX1S handles both 16:9 and 4:3 equally adeptly. The problem is not with the display or the recorder, but rather with the 622. A Level 3 tech support agent admits that - by design - the 622 outputs ONLY aspect ratio 4:3 from its S-Video or Composite outputs. Since there is no firewire output or recorder that accepts component cable inputs, that means that ALL programming that originates as 16:9 programming is "Squashed" into a 4:3 shape, and by a rather crude algorithim it seems.

As I said in my oriinal post, while I can live with a 480i output, I'd like that output to be at least in the original aspect ration. No recording made from a "Squashed" 16:9 program looks right, even with the fancy tools top end displays such as my Sony XBR 960 use to "stretch" 4:3 material into wide-screen. Apparently, once a 16:9 programs been compressed to a 4:3 recording, it does NOT expand well.

So, my problem is not the Down Rezzing - it is the butchering of the aspect ratio by a crude compression of ALL 16:9 programming to 4:3 from the S-Video and Composite outputs.

#7 OFFLINE   c_caz

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 04:15 PM

Two things:
I see what you mean about 4x3 being squashed as if I record a native 4x3 broadcast and set my tv in a 4x3 mode it will be a 16x9 frame (with black bars) squeezed into a 4x3 frame. BUT and this is a big but, if i set my TV back to 'Full' or anamorphic it stretches that picture into a clean 16x9 picture (still with black bars). And when I say clean I do not see this a being done poorly or crudely. Today I created two recordings, one on the 622's HDD and one on my Pioneer DVDRW and the Pioneer is softer (of course) but it does not look much different. I am actually impressed with how good it looks in 480i when compared to the 622s HD output (this comparison is pausing both in the same spot and toggling between imputs).

Of course we are on different hardware and yours sounds at least as good as mine (Pioneer Elite RPTV, Pioneer 520 DVDRW), but I don't see this as a problem with the 622 output as being anything but excellent. I'm actually going to erase a number of my 811 derived DVDRWs and replace them with ones from my 622. I'd try tweaking your settings a bit (look for an anamorphic setting)

My one knock on these recordings is if you originate from 4x3 you cannot stretch it to 16x9 you'll keep the black bars. If that is what your mostly recording then there is setting missing from the 622s stretch modes that would make you happier.

#8 OFFLINE   liferules

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 04:36 PM

the 622 outputs ONLY aspect ratio 4:3 from its S-Video or Composite outputs. Since there is no firewire output or recorder that accepts component cable inputs, that means that ALL programming that originates as 16:9 programming is "Squashed" into a 4:3 shape, and by a rather crude algorithim it seems.


I'm still missing why you're using S-video. You can use both component and HDMI to connect 2 different objects to the 622 and get 16x9 HD programming...why are you using S-video at all? Is there a reason why you have your recorder separate from the TV? Most people have them connected in a line...sat to recorder to TV...

#9 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 10:34 PM

I'm still missing why you're using S-video. You can use both component and HDMI to connect 2 different objects to the 622 and get 16x9 HD programming...why are you using S-video at all? Is there a reason why you have your recorder separate from the TV? Most people have them connected in a line...sat to recorder to TV...



Life Rules - I am using S-Video because I want to record (i.e., archive) - in analog - the programs record on the 622. I take them to my beach house for use on a basic system. I know I can DRIVE two Hi-Def systems, but what I need to do is watch one high def while recording one standard def - but in the ORIGINAL 16:9 aspect ratio.
Best,
Steve

#10 OFFLINE   LtMunst

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 09:20 AM

Life Rules - I am using S-Video because I want to record (i.e., archive) - in analog - the programs record on the 622. I take them to my beach house for use on a basic system. I know I can DRIVE two Hi-Def systems, but what I need to do is watch one high def while recording one standard def - but in the ORIGINAL 16:9 aspect ratio.
Best,
Steve


What S-Video output are you using? TV1 or TV2?

#11 OFFLINE   ChuckA

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 10:00 AM

There is no TV2 S-Video output on the 622.

#12 OFFLINE   LtMunst

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 10:51 AM

There is no TV2 S-Video output on the 622.


Oops, that's right. :(

#13 OFFLINE   liferules

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 12:45 PM

Life Rules - I am using S-Video because I want to record (i.e., archive) - in analog - the programs record on the 622. I take them to my beach house for use on a basic system. I know I can DRIVE two Hi-Def systems, but what I need to do is watch one high def while recording one standard def - but in the ORIGINAL 16:9 aspect ratio.
Best,
Steve


Unfortunately, I don't have any ideas that would help you, then. It appears that you would either have to change the native HD images on the PVR to 4x3 so the S-video would look OK, but then your HD looks lousy, or the other way around...

#14 OFFLINE   LtMunst

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 01:56 PM

Another thing to keep in mind is that most DVD burners will only record true widescreen to DVD-RAM. Very few (any?) will burn a true full widescreen to DVD+/-R.

#15 OFFLINE   bobbyc03

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 02:44 PM

Hi Steve,
You should setup TV2 to mirror TV1 and see if you can use the RCA jacks instead of S-video and see if the TV2 outputs will fit the 16:9 image into a 4:3 (anamorphic squeeze) and put the black bars on the top and bottom.

I was actually quite happy to find that the TV1 analog jacks will output a anamorphic image! The 811 receiver this 622 replaced did not do what I wanted (but did what you want).

I've been recording the HDTV feed of my favorite shows (primarly 24) into a cheap mpeg4 PMP I picked up on ebay. My next step is to find a DVD authoring program that will burn the video to DVD with the anamorphic flagging for set top DVD players to pickup and do the anamorphic squeeze (commonly referred to "enhanced for 16:9 TV's" on the back of DVD movie boxes.)
Bob C

#16 OFFLINE   BFG

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Posted 27 February 2006 - 02:57 PM

Yeah I dunno what he's complaining about. Most people who want to record HD stuff to DVD would find the 622s SD outputs 16x9 squished to 4x3 a bonus because they can then create an anamorphic copy with it!

#17 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 28 February 2006 - 10:14 AM

Hi Steve,
You should setup TV2 to mirror TV1 and see if you can use the RCA jacks instead of S-video and see if the TV2 outputs will fit the 16:9 image into a 4:3 (anamorphic squeeze) and put the black bars on the top and bottom.

I was actually quite happy to find that the TV1 analog jacks will output a anamorphic image! The 811 receiver this 622 replaced did not do what I wanted (but did what you want).

I've been recording the HDTV feed of my favorite shows (primarly 24) into a cheap mpeg4 PMP I picked up on ebay. My next step is to find a DVD authoring program that will burn the video to DVD with the anamorphic flagging for set top DVD players to pickup and do the anamorphic squeeze (commonly referred to "enhanced for 16:9 TV's" on the back of DVD movie boxes.)
Bob C


Bob C - That sounds like a great idea, but I am not sure I know exactly how to do what you are suggesting - I apologize in advance for being such an idiot, but would you mind terribly giving me a step-by-step (menu prompts) etc.? You could PM or email me. You are a lifesaver - and perhaps you can chase away my Down Rez Blues!
Best,
Steve

#18 OFFLINE   stepheneasley

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Posted 05 March 2006 - 10:51 PM

All - I solved the Down Rez blues. If you want to make an analog copy of a HD 16:9 program, here is what you do to get the correct aspect ratio on your Tivo, DVD-Recorder or VHS tape. Set up TV1 and TV2 to mirror each other. Then go into system set-up and then set up the television type as 4:3 # 2, with 480i. This fools the 622 into believing your primary televsion is 4:3 480i instead of 16:9 HDTV 1080i. This corrects the aspect ratio issue, and analog recordings made in this fashion have the correct aspect ratio and look pretty D* good to my eyes. If anyone has any further questions, just PM me.
Best,
Steve :) :) :) !!!

#19 OFFLINE   hazydave

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Posted 28 March 2006 - 03:34 PM

Hey-

While it sounds like Steve solved his problem, there's an inherent misconception in his problem. Basically, aspect ratio in the analog domain is a matter of interperetation by the display device, unless you intercept it digitally. So when he's saying that the downconversion "messes with the aspect ratio", that's incorrect -- it's downconverting a widescreen 1080i or 720p to a widescreen, analog 480i. Which is exactly the same, signal-wise, as a 4:3 480i.

It's identical in the world of DV or DVD. When you record a widescreen DV tape, there's a digital flag that indicates it's DV, that's it -- the other data on tape is unchanged. When you get a widescreen DVD, there's a flag (one bit) that says "this is widescreen".

When you feed any of these, via SVideo, to a widescreen display/recorder, you get analog widescreen. This is what I would want, for example, on two of my Sony TVs, which actually have an analog 16:9 mode. If I want that to look right on a 4:3 screen, THAT requires some additional reformatting. That's exactly what all DVD players do with an 16:9 video ("anamorphic, though that's kind of a misnomer anyway) when you're targeting a 4:3 monitor, the DVD player is told this, and you have the "letterbox" bit also checked.

In Europe, there's actually a standard for indicating to displays if the analog signal is 4:3 or 16:9, but that's a fact that they introduced 16:9 in PAL years before they had high definition and digital interface standards. Recorders don't need it -- the data is identical.

If you recorded that "squashed" video to a DVD, with the DVD player set to "record animporphic" or whatever (eg, set the 16:9 bit on that DVD), it would play back fine on any DVD player. If the DVD recorder didn't support this, changing that one bit in the IFO file for that segment (using a tool like IFOEdit on a PC) would render than DVD perfect for all output devices. This is because DVD players, like your Vip622, adjust their digital formatting according to the output device.

Thing is, when you're recording, you should record the whole signal, or as much as possible, not the letterboxing. I'm still waiting for my ViP622 to be installed properly (the satellite guy came out today, but didn't bring the right parts), but I'm happy to hear that the SVideo output will do PROPER downconversion for recorders, as well as the letterboxing you'd want for 4:3 tvs.

-Dave

#20 OFFLINE   David D

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Posted 29 March 2006 - 01:54 PM

Well, I can tell you that for my setup, the 622 does not behave the same way the 811 did with respect to aspect ratio. I have a 42" plasma and I typically use the SD (S-Video) outputs of the receiver when I am not watching HD. Better picture than the HD outputs for SD content.

Anyway, I typically do grey bar using the TV's aspect ratio selector and leave the receiver set to "none". Well since the 622, "none" gives me squished..and I wind up with a black bar in between the picture and the grey bar. If I use my TV's other settings" Just, Zoom and Panasonic Auto" it doesn't fill the whole screen like it did before. Just fills about 2/3's of the screen and looks pretty awful.

Then yesterday I put the 622 aspect ratio into "Stretch" from the 622 and the aspect ratio for 4:3 SD content looked perfect. Not stretched at all. When I then toggled through the TV's aspect ratio's they all behaved correctly as they did with the 811. Grey bar from my TV looked perfect again. My only conclusion here is that "none" does not mean "none" with respect to the 622.

It's really hard to live with because while the set enforces "FULL" on HD content (you can't toggle aspect ratio from the tv) the Dish box does not, so I have to toggle the Dish box's aspect ratio back to "none" when switching to HD. I dunno, I didn't have this issue with the 811, so either this is a feature or a bug.

So now in addition to switching inputs when switching between HD and SD I have to change aspect ratios as well.

Anyone have an idea what's going on?

David




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