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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Did Dish dish out an ECM 8/15?


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48 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 09:46 PM

They say those ECMs are very expensive...
But it is all probably Budgeted in anyhow :)

kingc: Only some romours - but they say - Over in Canada, the kind of ECMs that screw up peoples machines - are Illigal and agains the law...

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#22 OFFLINE   Jacob S

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 10:08 PM

If they own the cards then they should not expect the customer to pay for a replacement, unless the customer damaged or compromised the card

This should be highly illegal to intentionally destroy someone's property on purpose, but this would be considered an accident.

Sometimes its like this, how would Dish know if the customer actually did do something to compromise the system or not? Anybody that hacks it could go and say that they hit them and get a new receiver out of it. This is why they are probably so strict. Dish does NOT own the receiver (unless its DHP).

#23 Guest_kingc_*

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 10:21 PM

Originally posted by Zac
kingc, ECMs are sad but true. I can understand an occasional dead receiver or card, but they should replace it right away (FedEx overnight) at no cost.


That's the problem though. If our speculation is true that Dish basically stonewalls legit people who were hit and takes the stance they must have been stealing channels, then the innocent are getting intentionally screwed by Dish. Dish is destroying other people's property on mere speculation they are hacking the service. Sounds like that should be wrong to me.

#24 Guest_kingc_*

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 10:31 PM

Originally posted by Rking401

Tell me, what are the "proper channels"?


Admittedly, that is the problem with the DBS architecture. It's one-way so there are very few things Dish can do to stop the pirates. With that said, should Dish be allowed to destroy other people's property on less than solid proof that theft of service is happening?

A analogous situation would be where I thought you broke into my house and used your truck to haul away my 60" TV. If we follow Dish's model to stop thieves, I should be allowed to poor sugar in your gas tank just because I suspected that you stole my property. Should this be allowed?

Of course, when we live under a government that can seize people's property and sell it at auction before the people were proven guilty, what do you expect from companies?

#25 Guest_kingc_*

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 10:32 PM

Originally posted by J Rath


They may not own the equipment, but they do own the smart card.


Ofcourse, but with this latest ECM Dish was destroying people's recievers, not the smart cards.

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Jacob S
If they own the cards then they should not expect the customer to pay for a replacement, unless the customer damaged or compromised the card

This should be highly illegal to intentionally destroy someone's property on purpose, but this would be considered an accident.

Sometimes its like this, how would Dish know if the customer actually did do something to compromise the system or not? Anybody that hacks it could go and say that they hit them and get a new receiver out of it. This is why they are probably so strict. Dish does NOT own the receiver (unless its DHP).


One screwed up side affect of legit people getting hit is it hurts honest installers like yourself. If I got hit, I would be calling up Dish immediately demanding new equipment. If they stonewalled me and accused me of stealing service, I would cancel on the spot, no matter whether I was under a commitment or not. Then I would disput any cancellation fees from Dish or the installer with my credit card. In this type of situation, it would be unfortunate that the installer got shafted by Dish with a chargeback.

Again, my speculation that Dish is stonewalling legit people that got hit is just speculation. With that said, I do not feel that Dish should be allowed to destroy other people's property under any circumstances.

#27 OFFLINE   Jacob S

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Posted 16 August 2002 - 11:10 PM

Everybody loses, the installer, customer, Dish, everybody.

I dont see much that Dish could do other than ship out a replacement if the customer is in fact paying his/her bill, but Dish does not know if that customer was hacking or not. I dont see why someone would be hacking if they are paying the bill.

#28 OFFLINE   markh

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 10:34 AM

I remember that one of the reasons given for D* dropping their Select Choice package was hackers often subscribed to that package so they would at least have a reason for having a dish up. D* didn't say that but there was much speculation about that on the forums.

#29 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 12:50 PM

Jacob S - " dont see why someone would be hacking if they are paying the bill."

to get extra channels i guess that they are not paying for: Example: porn, PPVs, etc ...or just to play the games..or something...

also maybe it gives those people a loophole - if the IRD is fried to call Dish later and tell them: my Reciever is fried - i am legit Subscriber, - so gimmi New IRD....lol ( or for simular reasons )

Scott: How about closing this thread..- not that i care or mind much - but i think i read in some of the threads here That Hacking discussions are not what this forum is all about..

all i can see - it is some big game of "cat and mouse" and We can't do much about it anyhow Here...

#30 OFFLINE   Jacob S

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:10 PM

By the time the subscriber pays for x months of programming he/she could buy a new or used receiver cheaper than that.

Also the discussion of talking piracy that deals with figuring out how to do it is what is against the rules, but not actually talking about how to prevent it or what is going on when it comes to dish/directv sending down things in the stream to combat it. Am I right?

#31 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:30 PM

Originally posted by DRJDAN
What is ECM ?


your Cat is staring at Me - lol - :D :rolleyes: :D

#32 OFFLINE   Scott Greczkowski

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:31 PM

This topic is FINE. We are not talking about how to hack but that Dish Network attacked the hackers.

Charlie has been smart about this ECM, with most ECM's he keeps the ECM in the stream all the time, hackers can quickly find out how the ECM works and write a fix, with this ECM it only stays active for an hour or two then is removed. A day later it is put back in again to kill more boxes.

While I would say Charlie got them good this time, they will unfortunately come back again. Its a continuing cat and mouse game.

As for the arguement that this ECM distroyed legal boxes there has been ZERO proof of that as of yet. If it was true I am SURE we would be hearing from a lot of angry customers. If a legit customer were to get hit they could just send the receiver to Echostar who will check to see if any soldering has been done in the box and will also read the smartcard to see if it has been altered in any way. I am sure these people claiming to be legit will not want to send in their recievers for this checkup. :)

I know one guy who subscribes and still hacks one of his receivers, and he only does this to watch the control room channel and the signal strength channel which airs but is not available to the public. (Hes very wierd he has a TV setup and just tuned to these channels 24 hours a day!)

Anyways score one for Charlie!

#33 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:32 PM

Jacob S : You are Right :)

however.......

#34 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:37 PM

haha Scott - your friend....
How do you know then Scott that Dish has this ECM on and off?

#35 OFFLINE   Scott Greczkowski

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:39 PM

I read the newsgroups :)

Plus I sort of knew that this ECM was coming. I also know that there is a possibility of a worse part 2 to the ECM.

#36 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 03:48 PM

sort of - how - approx how?

worse part 2 - lol - just wondering what that could be :)

Charlie is God!

#37 OFFLINE   Jacob S

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 04:20 PM

It was published from some sources of news on the web. Also I never knew of a signal channel and a control room channel, sounds interesting. Wonder if they send down hits to those that try to get just those two things in, they probably do if they use the same methods to bring those in as they do the other channels. What all is shown on the control room channel and signal channel? Do they crack down on those that just hack to get those two channels? There is good hacking and bad hacking.

#38 OFFLINE   Darkman

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 04:31 PM

no-no - saw it with my own eyes (one time) - those channels have nothing to do with it all..if you hack you are a target...

but on the other hand more likely of course - if you hack - you probably have those 2 channels anyhow...lol

not much on those 2 channels - just like a map with signals, and some control room with all the TV screens ..and ppl sitting, sometimes they get up, and walk somewhere..then they sit down..and more likely go back to work, to sleep or whatever they were doing..
Someone is there 24/7 of course.. - it is control room after all..

I also hear - hackers get more then those 2 channels that others do not get..that they get some other hidden Test, etc channels..

#39 OFFLINE   MarkA

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 04:36 PM

Scott, I'm glad to hear no legitimate users have got hit this time, but legitimate users do get damaged by many ECMs, and they are forced to pay for equipment that DISH damaged that belongs to DISH (the smart card). I know somebody this happened to, of course - DISH wouldn't say it was an ECM, but I can't see what else it could have been? Is there anything other than an ECM that could kill a card?

#40 OFFLINE   Jacob S

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Posted 17 August 2002 - 06:11 PM

I have heard on some of these boards about some legit customers getting hit, but none of my customers came to me telling me they got hit. I have never had a customer tell me that they have gotten hit.

Charlie probably has the control room channels up to watch over their employees while he is at home, bc I am sure Charlie gets ALL the channels to moniter everything.




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