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I wonder ??????


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23 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Bobman

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 03:59 PM

In THEORY ONLY, could a class action lawsuit be filed against DirecTV over the R-15 ? I know people can file a lawsuit for anything but I mean something of substance.

I was thinking of all the reasons that made me buy the R-15 and many of them are not even working corectly and some things are not even available yet (VOD, Showcases, using the extra 60 gigs of HD space, external HD, etc..). This is after seven months. The normal life expectency of electronics is only approx. two years so by the time the R-15 even starts working like advertised, something else is going to come out or be in the works replacing it.

If when I bought the R-15 from DirecTV they told me the extra 60 gigs of space, VOD, showcases, external HD would not be available for 7+ months, there are hidden unadvertised limitations that might never be increased, the basics of the DVR would not be working reliable for 7+ months, I would not have bought one.

#2 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 05:31 PM

In THEORY ONLY, could a class action lawsuit be filed against DirecTV over the R-15 ? I know people can file a lawsuit for anything but I mean something of substance.

I was thinking of all the reasons that made me buy the R-15 and many of them are not even working corectly and some things are not even available yet (VOD, Showcases, using the extra 60 gigs of HD space, external HD, etc..). This is after seven months. The normal life expectency of electronics is only approx. two years so by the time the R-15 even starts working like advertised, something else is going to come out or be in the works replacing it.

If when I bought the R-15 from DirecTV they told me the extra 60 gigs of space, VOD, showcases, external HD would not be available for 7+ months, there are hidden unadvertised limitations that might never be increased, the basics of the DVR would not be working reliable for 7+ months, I would not have bought one.


Well if you check out some websites with consumer class action suits. I would have to say yes. I will leave it to the attorneys to determine the exact cause of action, but a viable claim could be charged as could a derivative class action by shareholders if they believe that Chase materially misrepresented the status of the R15, it's impact to financials (SAC).

Don't be surprised if SAC don't drop or if they disclose any continuing issue that impacts financials that any proximate stock drop may inspire formal action.

#3 OFFLINE   walters

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 06:05 PM

Who are you and what have you done to Bobman?

#4 OFFLINE   ISWIZ

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 07:54 PM

If you were foolish enough to "buy" one, I guess you could. Most of us original users got our money back with a rebate. Guess you could say I got what I paid for.
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#5 OFFLINE   qwerty

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 08:10 PM

I'm thinking of the IMB Deskstar 75GXP, where IBM misled users about the failure rate. Has D* actually misled us? I mean proveable promises? I don't know if the unreliability is justification unless they actually promised something. Maybe Chase's statements? I'm no expert, but in our litigious society, if there was a good case it probably would have been filed already.

#6 OFFLINE   Wolffpack

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Posted 29 June 2006 - 09:00 PM

I think what would be tough is documenting what DTV advertised and how the R15 does not perform as such. We've all heard of the VOD, Showcases, the extra disk space and external drives, but has DTV ever stated the R15 would specifically have these functions or did they state their new technology DVRs will have these functions?

Now, documenting that it hangs, freezes and doesnt reliably record the shows the customer tells it to record would be a different angle.

I wouldn't be included in this class as mine was free with the DVR4ME offer.
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#7 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 07:15 AM

If you were foolish enough to "buy" one, I guess you could. Most of us original users got our money back with a rebate. Guess you could say I got what I paid for.


The rebate isn't relevant. You Paid $99.00, whether it is a lease or purchase. The exercise of your right for the rebate is a seperate issue. Damages are not limited to the cost you spent on machine. Besides although the percentage is higher here, rebates are redeemed at about a 2% conversion rate. So even if we accept that you got yours for free 98% of the potential class probably didn't.

Think the cost of loss of use, replacement costs, DVR fees, extra receiver fees, protection plan enrollments, and everyone's favorite - emotional distress, (ever see my wife if Lost doesn't record?).......

There are concievable claims for violation of the Unfair and Deceptive Practices Act and probably several other laws.

I won't tell you they are viable. (I am not a licenced attorney and connot give legal advice)..I do have a law degree however, and it is my somewhat educated yet still layman's opinion that a suit could be brought.

Whether it should or shouldn't or whether it would accomplish anything is an entirely different debate...Personally, I would rather see the stockholders file a derivative suit, if a claim becomes evident based on Chase' s false statements in last quarters meeting.

#8 OFFLINE   Bobman

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 07:22 AM

Who are you and what have you done to Bobman?



Its me. :hurah: I am just upset as my R-15 pretty much totally died and I have to use my R-10 again as my main unit. Even I cant be happy with the R-15 under these circumstances.

Almost all my SL's stopped working, my to do list doesnt come even close to filling anymore when it used to have 90-100 all the time, I get flashes of the screen going totally black when doing things, sometimes after watching a recorded show my picture will be gone and I have to just start clicking things to get it back, etc....

#9 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 07:28 AM

Has D* actually misled us? I mean proveable promises? I don't know if the unreliability is justification unless they actually promised something.


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Misleading?
Maybe.

Go through the manual, the box, the websites, ads..etc. you will find several "promises"

SUre bugs/issues are reasonable to expect. And of course they advertise a working as designed product.

How many bugs are acceptable and when these promises became misleading, is an important legal question.

So is to what extent D* knew or should have known about the issues.

Were the advertisements in good faith? Did they think it would be fixed? or did they know 7+ months later it would n't..or SHOULD they have known that 7+ mionths later it wouldn't...

All I am saying is it's not a simple question, either way. But if you look at other suits (Dell, Toshiba, etc....) this seems fairly analagous.

#10 OFFLINE   ISWIZ

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 08:03 AM

This thread needs to be moved to Letssuesomeone.com:icon_peac
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#11 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 09:39 AM

This thread needs to be moved to Letssuesomeone.com:icon_peac


I am not advocating that a suit should be filed, just addressing the question Bobman asked.

Yes, there are lots of frivolous lawsuits. And yes, we are too litigious a society. But, sometimes legal recourse is valid and appropriate.

Especially in cases of consumers against big corporations, where they have little to no other leverage.

Here are some examples. I am not endorsing the claims below, just data to consider on whether a suit might have "substance".

Make up your mind.

Owners of Toshiba's Satellite 5005 series notebooks, among the first to use desktop processors in mobile PCs, filed a class-action lawsuit late last month against Toshiba America, alleging the company knowingly concealed a design flaw that caused the notebooks to overheat and shut down, and compounded the problem with its attempts to fix the situation.- august 2002 PC WORLD

Toshiba Corp on Friday announced a $1 billion special loss for 1999/2000 to settle a U.S. lawsuit over its notebook computers, triggering a credit rating downgrade and a nine percent slide in the electronic giant's share price. Two U.S. owners of Toshiba notebook personal computers brought the class-action lawsuit earlier this year, alleging that a condition in the micro-code for the floppy disk controller may cause data in a floppy disk to be lost or corrupted. -October 30, 1999

Green Welling filed a nationwide class action in the Northern District of California on behalf of all persons who purchased an HP Pavilion ZD7000 series notebook computer ("Pavilion"). The complaint alleges that the Pavilion overheats and cannot effectively dissipate the heat produced by its various components, such as the video card. The high amount of heat produced by the notebook results in numerous malfunctions – Current pending lawsuit.

The Treo 600 and Treo 650 ("Treos") manufactured by Palm, Inc. appear to fail at unacceptably high rates. Green Welling has filed a class action on behalf of all persons who purchased a Treo 600 or Treo 650.Treos suffer from extremely poor sound quality and buzzing, choppiness, speakerphone problems, poor and broken screens, phone crashes, software crashes and electrical surges. According to the lawsuit, when Palm replaced class members' phones in response to these problems, it replicated the problems by providing consumers with refurbished phones subject to identical issues– Current pending lawsuit.

Green Welling has filed a class action lawsuit against Toshiba America Information Systems on behalf of all persons and entities who have owned an A70, A75, M30X, and/or M35X Toshiba notebook computer during the last four years.Toshiba Satellite A70, A75, M30X, and M35X notebook computers have an alleged defect that causes the computer to lock up and reboot when touched, which renders the computer essentially useless. – Current pending lawsuit.


#12 OFFLINE   DesignDawg

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 10:13 AM

I am not advocating that a suit should be filed, just addressing the question Bobman asked.

Yes, there are lots of frivolous lawsuits. And yes, we are too litigious a society. But, sometimes legal recourse is valid and appropriate.

Especially in cases of consumers against big corporations, where they have little to no other leverage.

Here are some examples. I am not endorsing the claims below, just data to consider on whether a suit might have "substance".

Make up your mind.

Owners of Toshiba's Satellite 5005 series notebooks, among the first to use desktop processors in mobile PCs, filed a class-action lawsuit late last month against Toshiba America, alleging the company knowingly concealed a design flaw that caused the notebooks to overheat and shut down, and compounded the problem with its attempts to fix the situation.- august 2002 PC WORLD

Toshiba Corp on Friday announced a $1 billion special loss for 1999/2000 to settle a U.S. lawsuit over its notebook computers, triggering a credit rating downgrade and a nine percent slide in the electronic giant's share price. Two U.S. owners of Toshiba notebook personal computers brought the class-action lawsuit earlier this year, alleging that a condition in the micro-code for the floppy disk controller may cause data in a floppy disk to be lost or corrupted. -October 30, 1999

Green Welling filed a nationwide class action in the Northern District of California on behalf of all persons who purchased an HP Pavilion ZD7000 series notebook computer ("Pavilion"). The complaint alleges that the Pavilion overheats and cannot effectively dissipate the heat produced by its various components, such as the video card. The high amount of heat produced by the notebook results in numerous malfunctions – Current pending lawsuit.

The Treo 600 and Treo 650 ("Treos") manufactured by Palm, Inc. appear to fail at unacceptably high rates. Green Welling has filed a class action on behalf of all persons who purchased a Treo 600 or Treo 650.Treos suffer from extremely poor sound quality and buzzing, choppiness, speakerphone problems, poor and broken screens, phone crashes, software crashes and electrical surges. According to the lawsuit, when Palm replaced class members' phones in response to these problems, it replicated the problems by providing consumers with refurbished phones subject to identical issues– Current pending lawsuit.

Green Welling has filed a class action lawsuit against Toshiba America Information Systems on behalf of all persons and entities who have owned an A70, A75, M30X, and/or M35X Toshiba notebook computer during the last four years.Toshiba Satellite A70, A75, M30X, and M35X notebook computers have an alleged defect that causes the computer to lock up and reboot when touched, which renders the computer essentially useless. – Current pending lawsuit.


Some of these examples of actual lawsuits sound WEAK compared to the flaws of the R15....

Broken components, unacceptable, unusually high failure rates, replacing bad units with bad refurbs, software flaws that render them "essentially uselss", etc. etc. etc.... Some of the "features we were promised" might not hold as much water, but they certainly don't play well for DirecTV either. I'd say, if someone had the gumption, there's no question there could be a (successful) class action.

HOWEVER:

The only people who win in class actions are the lawyers. They take away enough to retire on, and each of us gets what? A waived DVR fee and our bill (and everyone else's) goes up another $2-3 a month? No thanks.

Ricky

#13 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 11:44 AM

The only people who win in class actions are the lawyers. They take away enough to retire on, and each of us gets what? A waived DVR fee and our bill (and everyone else's) goes up another $2-3 a month? No thanks.

Ricky


While I don't disagree with that, the point of the suit is not to get rich off D* mistakes.

If the suit cost them $200 million dollars then maybe they will spend an extra $20 million on testing/development next time..(Yes, i am making up numbers, you get the point please don't tell me noone spends $20MM on testing, just illustrating risk/benefit)

Or if they rush a product out because it means they can make an extra $40MM in DVR fees, extra receiver fees, hardware leases, but the long run risk is a huge law settlement, they might not do so.

I reject the defeatist attitude that you shouldn't so anything becaue the lawyers make all the money and D* will just raise my fees.

With an attitude like that nothing will ever get done, because it's too hard and it proably won't work anyway.. and i'm not talking just about the R15 or D*

#14 OFFLINE   carl6

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 11:46 AM

As a Treo 650 owner, who operates the unit pretty much stock, and with only a limited few additional applications specifically designed for it, I have had no problems, failures, sound quality issues, or other issues.

Following Treo forums, my impression is that the people with the most problems are the people who push the unit to or past it's limits, attempt to "hack" it to implement features or capabilities that are not inlcuded in, or are specifically locked out of, the production model, etc.

But this is completely off topic to the R15 discussion. My R15's work pretty good also, with the specific qualification of the heat issues I have discussed in another thread.

Carl

#15 OFFLINE   mikewolf13

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 12:41 PM

As a Treo 650 owner, who operates the unit pretty much stock, and with only a limited few additional applications specifically designed for it, I have had no problems, failures, sound quality issues, or other issues.

Carl


One TOshiba lawsuit which was settled said that less than .5% had the issue. Toshica initially claimed less than .08% of owners of the notebook called to complain. So it clearly does not need to affect anywhere near the majority of users.

I believe someone at d* acknowledged 10% returns.at some point. Tke that for what it's worth in evaluating the viability.

Hopefully many R15 users have had even fewer issues than you carl6. And you now seem to be tremendously lucky....played the lottery lately?

To reiterate I am not criticizing Treo, Toshiba, HP ..i have no idea if the suits will succeed or if the allegations even have merit . Just reporting current filed lawsuits, not yet dimissed which seem at least comparable (not identical) to what he have witnessed with the R15.

#16 OFFLINE   qwerty

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Posted 30 June 2006 - 05:24 PM

...and each of us gets what? A waived DVR fee and our bill (and everyone else's) goes up another $2-3 a month? No thanks.

Ricky


I was part of "the class" in a class action against Gateway over the 17" monitors being slightly less than 17". I think we ended up getting something silly, like $50 of our next system purchase, or 10% off next peripheral purchase.

I didn't actually sue them, I just got a letter stating that I was automatically part of the class, unless I chose to seek my own remedy. Something like that. It was 5 or 6 years ago.

#17 OFFLINE   Bobman

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 05:28 AM

Someone might rememeber more than me but many many years ago something was filed againt DirecTV and all we got were a couple PPV vouchers.

#18 OFFLINE   qwerty

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 08:01 PM

I'm curious as to why this was moved out of the R15 forum.

In THEORY ONLY, could a class action lawsuit be filed against DirecTV over the R-15 ?


It's a discussion specific to the R15.

#19 OFFLINE   Wolffpack

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Posted 01 July 2006 - 11:22 PM

I'm curious as to why this was moved out of the R15 forum.



It's a discussion specific to the R15.

I was wondering that also. If a suit such as this were filed, it would only be concerning the R15, not DTV in "General".
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#20 OFFLINE   ISWIZ

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 10:52 AM

Maybe that forum's title has a hint:

"DirecTV™ R15 Standard DVR Support Q&A"
not
DirecTV™ R15 Standard DVR Class Action Q&A
Dave

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