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Guest Message by DevFuse

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OTA local guide info lost


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26 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   He Save Dave

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 08:06 PM

Ok I currently have an antenna for OTA HD locals. I got my dish installed a couple weeks ago and they mistakenly gave us locals. So I had my OTA locals and my locals from dish. I didn't see the use in paying the extra $$ for dish locals so I canceled them. Now the problem I have is that my receiver (622) won't show the guide info for my OTA locals. It did before I cancelled my dish locals. Now all it says is "Digital Service". Is there any way to make the guide show my OTA local programming info? Thanks in advance friends. :)

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#2 OFFLINE   emkay99

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 08:26 PM

I have the same issue. Dish technical support told me the 622 gets the guide information from the digital broadcast, and said the Phoenix stations may broadcast the guide information over the analog channels.

#3 OFFLINE   He Save Dave

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 08:44 PM

I have the same issue. Dish technical support told me the 622 gets the guide information from the digital broadcast, and said the Phoenix stations may broadcast the guide information over the analog channels.


I receive guide info when I have my antenna hooked directly to my TV. It's broadcast with my digitals I believe. This makes me sad.:(

#4 OFFLINE   R_Childress

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 08:56 PM

Unless you subscribe to locals from DISH, you will not get guide info for locals on the 622.

#5 OFFLINE   He Save Dave

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 09:12 PM

Unless you subscribe to locals from DISH, you will not get guide info for locals on the 622.


Kind of pointless for me to have a dvr and no guide info. I really want to be able to record stuff from my OTA locals. :shrug:

#6 OFFLINE   emkay99

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Posted 02 July 2006 - 09:25 PM

Kind of pointless for me to have a dvr and no guide info. I really want to be able to record stuff from my OTA locals. :shrug:



I can't agree with you more, and to pay another $6/month for the local channel guide - well that's ridiculous.

#7 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 01:20 AM

Locals are only $5 more per month - and are REQUIRED for the ViP receivers and the 921/942 to display guide information for OTA.

#8 OFFLINE   Donp

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:21 AM

I have on older 811 and my guide info on the OTA's seem to work on the network affiliates ABC, NBC, CBS and Fox but channels like the PBS stations we have here (KET) just show up as "Local Digital" and do not display the program info like the others do. I'm in an overlap area for DMA but E* won't let me have my old locals I had before I moved, so I recieve them OTA and have the locals from the other town blocked out. How come I get the program list from some stations and not others.

#9 OFFLINE   Jim5506

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 09:46 AM

I have a 622 and DO NOT subscribe to locals. I use TitanTv.com to help manually schedule locals recording, it is a small inconvenience, but I don't mind. I am a little tight.

#10 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:04 AM

I have the same issue. Dish technical support told me the 622 gets the guide information from the digital broadcast, and said the Phoenix stations may broadcast the guide information over the analog channels.

If the 622 gets the program guide from the local station's PSIP data than the guide should not disappear if you cancel LIL's. In reality, the guide data comes from the satellite data for the SD LIL's. "You no subscribe, you no get guide" :P :mad:

This is a stinking policy on E*'s part.

Even the paying subscribers don;t get a full guide. That is due to the PBS stations lack of conformity (perhaps due to a lack of budget). With the commecial stations the SD and HD feeds show the same program 99.99% of the time. With PBS it's 0.009%.
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#11 OFFLINE   SaltiDawg

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 12:42 PM

Kind of pointless for me to have a dvr and no guide info. I really want to be able to record stuff from my OTA locals. :shrug:

You'll need to subscribe to the locals in order to get the Guide info.

#12 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:34 PM

You'll need to subscribe to the locals in order to get the Guide info.

What do DVR owners do who live in markets not carried on E*? Are they just out of luck? Do most of them "move"?
An E* subscriber continuously since February 1997.

#13 OFFLINE   John W

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 02:41 PM

Even the paying subscribers don;t get a full guide. That is due to the PBS stations lack of conformity (perhaps due to a lack of budget). With the commecial stations the SD and HD feeds show the same program 99.99% of the time. With PBS it's 0.009%.


My PBS was messed up because Zap To It, which pprovides Dish's guide info, had a couple of the PBS channels reversed, showing main programming as on the -02 subchannel instead of the -01.I had to get the local affiliate to contact them as my attempts to raise the issue direct were ignored.

#14 OFFLINE   mick70

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 04:27 PM

Will I must live a good life. I do not Sub to locals I use OTA to get my digital stuff. I do have the guide on my 921, but not for the PBS HD channel (009-05)Seattle. I guess when I get aroud to upgrading to a 622 It will go away. However I will have the install guy look at what I have before the install and expect to have on my 622 that I have on my 921!

#15 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 05:47 PM

Will I must live a good life. I do not Sub to locals I use OTA to get my digital stuff. I do have the guide on my 921, but not for the PBS HD channel (009-05)Seattle. I guess when I get aroud to upgrading to a 622 It will go away. However I will have the install guy look at what I have before the install and expect to have on my 622 that I have on my 921!

There are a handful of subs who don't subscribe to their locals but still get OTA guide data. While I can't say for sure (none of them will divulge the "secret") I'm willing to bet it may have someting to do with subscribing to Distants (since the distants feeds are also used as theLIL feeds for their respective markets). Since the majority of us don't qualify for the distants it's a moot point. OTOH if a Superstation subscription would work to unlock the guide data, I'd be willing to get those. I just don't want to have to pay for channels I'd never watch (i.e. the overcompressed SD versions of my locals).

BTW: Even the "paying" subs don't get PBS guide data on their digital OTA channels.
An E* subscriber continuously since February 1997.

#16 OFFLINE   BobaBird

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:25 PM

Kind of pointless for me to have a dvr and no guide info. I really want to be able to record stuff from my OTA locals. :shrug:

They're collecting a DVR fee which supposedly includes NBR but then make you pay again to get the names. :nono2:
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#17 OFFLINE   John W

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:33 PM

BTW: Even the "paying" subs don't get PBS guide data on their digital OTA channels.


I do, on the digital channel that mirrors their main analog channel lineup.

#18 OFFLINE   kb7oeb

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 06:54 PM

The guide data for my local PBS used to be carried, even for PBS-HD and the SD mirror and was unique because it showed when the station prempted PBSHD for a nightly local show. The digital station used to go off-air from 11pm to 7am but then went full time. Months went by and dish still listed it as off air every night and I noticed at my Moms house the local cable company was doing the same so I shot an email off to the station to let them know, a few days later dish removed the EPG for the station completly. I think it might be my fault about the lack of PBS guide ;)

Dish should not be charging for local guide data until they are ready to provide it completly. If they don't want to do it then they should configure the receiver to pull it from PSIP.

#19 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 08:49 PM

Dish should not be charging for local guide data until they are ready to provide it completly. If they don't want to do it then they should configure the receiver to pull it from PSIP.


For the record, PSIP is not always there or complete either. I have a standalone receiver for HD in another room, and it uses PSIP to get program guide info. It is never more than an hour or two in advance and many channels are blank in the guide.

IF the PSIP info was always there, then I would ask Dish to support it... but as it is, it is a crapshoot depending on where you are and how well your local channels maintain it.

#20 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 10:14 PM

I personally get PBS guide data for my locals and I know of a number of other DMAs that also get it through Dish.

As for supplying PSIP support, at one time I thought this was a good idea and I have long since changed my my mind. Reason for the change was, after reading about all the variations in the quality of PSIP guide information I could see what a nightmare it would be for a NBR based box to do such a thing. Is there any PSIP based DVRs in the market that are doing this across the nation? I think that speaks volumes to the reason not to support it.

If DIsh was to do this and people missed shows because of poor PSIP guide information, the blame would go Dish's way and personally I don't blame them for wanting to control this aspect of the process.

I personally think people have legit grips when it comes to having to pay for locals to get guide information and I urge each person that feels this is not fair to voice their opinions. However, I don't personally support adding PSIP support for reasons mentioned above.

Also, As for accurace.. Boy that is a tough one to do across the nation given Dish's topology and from the posts I have read there is a lot of scenarios.

Personally I would like for Dish to change this policy, but wanting it and having it a occur is two different things. For me, if it is a matter of not having guide data or paying the monthly fee I choose the guide data because it makes my life easier. Each of us have to weight this and make our own mind.

Does this make Dish evil? Not in my book. Just as a car company adding a market adjustment to certain vehicles does not make the car company evil.
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#21 OFFLINE   kb7oeb

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Posted 03 July 2006 - 11:46 PM

How do you set a NBR timer for "Local Digital"? Sure its a big limitation but a couple hours worth is better than nothing.

#22 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 01:03 AM

How do you set a NBR timer for "Local Digital"? Sure its a big limitation but a couple hours worth is better than nothing.


Don't take it personally... and I agree that it is a poor decision by Dish to make people pay for locals just to get the OTA guide info!

But, PSIP is not the answer. Do some investigating into the OTA channels in your area and I suspect you'll find the same as most of the rest of us who have checked... some channels have info, others don't. Some subchannels have it, others don't. And there's just about no one you can call at the local TV stations who will admit to knowing how PSIP works for their channel OR what to do when problems are reported.

I wish PSIP was reliable so then we could ask Dish to implement it... but PSIP in many cases is just not reliable enough for the needs of the DVR folk... and I agree with PSIP out of Dish's hands, they would field all the complaints and have no chance at all of fixing timer problems with PSIP data errors.

At least with their own guide they have a fighting chance at correcting guide problems.

#23 OFFLINE   garys

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Posted 04 July 2006 - 05:56 AM

How do you set a NBR timer for "Local Digital"? Sure its a big limitation but a couple hours worth is better than nothing.


NBR would not work in this case as "Local Digital" is usually set for many hours and would try to record the first one or all as there is info. Setting a Manual Timer would do it but would not be able to keep up if program times are changed.

#24 OFFLINE   kb7oeb

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:11 AM

NBR would not work in this case as "Local Digital" is usually set for many hours and would try to record the first one or all as there is info. Setting a Manual Timer would do it but would not be able to keep up if program times are changed.


That was my point in response to Ron Barry's post. I should have quoted but was feeling lazy :)

Don't take it personally... and I agree that it is a poor decision by Dish to make people pay for locals just to get the OTA guide info!

But, PSIP is not the answer. Do some investigating into the OTA channels in your area and I suspect you'll find the same as most of the rest of us who have checked... some channels have info, others don't. Some subchannels have it, others don't. And there's just about no one you can call at the local TV stations who will admit to knowing how PSIP works for their channel OR what to do when problems are reported.


I don't and I understand the limitations. I do use the PSIP guide on my TV , I have to for PBS and it works fine, I know thats not true everywhere but its usually works here. The big limitation is its usually only for 6 hours worth and the receiver would have to tune every station and download data. I agree its better for dish to provide they guide but they are not doing it for every station.

The PSIP guide will get better, stations are required by the FCC to provide accurate guide data. I've even emailed stations when their guide wasn't working and they usually have it fixed a short time later.

#25 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 05 July 2006 - 12:52 AM

Guess I should then respond.... You don't however PSIP support maybe in your circumstance might provide a solution but in the bigger picture I think it would create more issues than it solves.

I am well aware there are holes in the Dish's current Guide model. Yeck at one time I thought about providing some place where these wholes could be documented so that users were aware of the level of support they could expect for a given DMA. Add the fact that some people fall into multiple DMAs and there are other edge conditions that make the whole guide thing a mess. Definitely a YMMV, but PSIP would only add to the mess.

Perhaps you see it addressing that one particular need, but in terms of consistence across the nation, PSIP is not even close to filling the gap.

You brought up one good point yourself. You only get 6 hours worth of information. Well Dish gives you 9 days so what you would create if you combined the two would be areas with partial coverage for some channels while full coverage for others. As a someone up on technology that might not seem too bad, because some is better than none. But for the general Dish customer, I could easily seem them getting confused and consider it a bug. A bug that dish cannot address. Then what happens when the station provides wrong guide info. Well, like I said.. I once thought it was a good idea and would address some of the issues mentioned here but the more I thought of it the more I saw it opening a can of worms to an already wormy situation.

I see the inability to provide guide information for all stations as a issue with their current process and one I am sure they will continue to struggle with. As for their competition across the nation, I wonder how D* stacks up with OTA guide support.
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