Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

Can we expect a straight answer from Dish: re HDMI failure?


  • Please log in to reply
199 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   JMikeF

JMikeF

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 67 posts
Joined: May 02, 2003

Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:39 AM

It is apparent that the VIP622 has an issue that is affecting a number of folks - failed HDMI ports. OK, we can use the Component ports (I am) that could introduce D/A conversion artifacts, and what happens if the broadcast down-rez flag is turned on?

I've held off on replacing my VIP622 because I've yet to hear a consistant message from Dish concerning this issue. What does it take for Dish to realize the problem?

I look to this forum because I understand it provides a direct link to Dish, and I've tried to be on my best behavior, but frankly I disappointed in the lack of information.

Here's what I expect:

An acknowledgement from Dish that they are aware of HDMI ports failing on numerous VIP622 units

An explanation of the root cause, or what they think could be the root cause

A process to fix it - either via a sw download or swap.
Is this too much to expect, from a customer? I think not :mad:

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

Ron Barry

    622 Tips & Trick Keeper

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 9,879 posts
Joined: Dec 10, 2002

Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:57 AM

I can understand your frustration. I also am in the same boat with one of my 622s. This issue personally is near and dear to me. I actually went through all the posts looking for a common thread myself but was not successful. Based on the switch test I did with my 622s, I requested a swap out since the the problem followed the 622 with the bad HDMI port when I swapped the boxes out. If you your 622 HDMI failed during a mid software release and based on other reports of a swap out working it is something to persue in my opinion.

Now on to your expectations. First off, thanks for keeping the tone level moderate and for keeping your post within the forum guidelines. I know issues like this can be frustrating and since I am experiencing the same issue I do feel your pain and concerns.

As for Dish's response, in my opinion your expectations are reasonable. Since Dish Engineering does visit these forums and with the number of posts regarding this issue I am confident they are aware of this issue. As to the root cause, Well I personally don't have exposure to know if a root cause has been identified.
<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

#3 OFFLINE   dude2

dude2

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 64 posts
Joined: May 27, 2006

Posted 25 July 2006 - 03:48 PM

I emailed ceo@dishnetwork.com, and asked about the distorted audio out on some channels with the hdmi output and got a email back stating that it was their number 1 problem and are working on solving it. This was a month ago, so it must be a super problem.

#4 OFFLINE   rice0209

rice0209

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 142 posts
Joined: Oct 10, 2005

Posted 25 July 2006 - 08:09 PM

This issue has been extremely important to me as well. I suffered through the 921 for almost two yeasr investing $650 into that machine (I am so glad I didn't buy earlier and pay $1000!). I had four of them traded in for other refurbished models. The last time I switched my 921 out, I finally got a dish CSR to admit that the 921 was a problematic receiver.

The 921 was the main reason I jumped at the 622. I know they had far fewer problems with the 942, but I think everyone knew that Dish needed to take another big step forward and get farther away from their older HD technology. I was so excited at the idea of mpeg 4 (more HD channels!), a true hdmi solution for video and audio output, and most importantly, a more stable unit.

I think out of all those things i was really happy with an HDMI output because my new projector, a Hitachi HDPJ52 which was giving beautiful pictures out of my 921 should only get better with the newer and improved 622.

Although the component output works okay with my projector, the image does not truly shine until I get a true digital solution. For some reason, my projector was designed with perfection when it gets an all digital signal vs analog.

I have never, from day one had my hdmi work and I have tried everything I can think of to fix this issue. A swap out did not fix the problem as well. I truly hope that dish gets this problem rectified, and if they cannot, finds a way to make it up to us who took their upgrade deal, which in my opinion, was there "sorry we made you suffer the 921" trade in program.

I like dish a lot and hope not to have to give up on them as I do believe that they are truly the best.

#5 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

Stewart Vernon

    Excellent Adventurer

  • Moderators
  • 19,595 posts
  • LocationKittrell, NC
Joined: Jan 07, 2005

Posted 25 July 2006 - 09:41 PM

I have seen, on some other forums, issues with some of the new HD-DVD players and HDMI as well.

While I am not taking Dish off the hook completely here... there is a nagging thought in the back of my head telling me that maybe this HDMI thing wasn't completely well-thought out before the industry tried to roll it out as a standard.

I would not be surprised at all to find out that independent of whatever problems Dish is having that there is a general problem with HDMI compatibility across the board with TVs, DVD-player/recorders, and pretty much anything else designed around those interfaces.

#6 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

Ron Barry

    622 Tips & Trick Keeper

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 9,879 posts
Joined: Dec 10, 2002

Posted 26 July 2006 - 01:40 AM

Rice0209:

Personally I think what you might be seeing is different that what others are seeing. If you have had two receivers and both HDMI did not work, I would start to look at other reason. There might be an incompatibility with the 622 with the current software rev in your case.

Have you tried another device the with an HDMI interface to see if you can get HDMI to work period? DId you try different resolutions from the 622? I am sure you have tried everything you can think of, but I suggest trying to rule out as much external variables as possible.
<strong class='bbc'>New Member of the 9K club & 922/612 User<br /></strong><span style='font-size: 8px;'>"A release is not a release until it is released." - Me. <br />"To the true believer, no proof is necessary. To the non believer, no proof is sufficient." - Peter James (Derived from a Stewert Chase Quote)</span>

#7 OFFLINE   motrac

motrac

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 39 posts
Joined: Jan 05, 2003

Posted 26 July 2006 - 02:59 AM

Dish is not being honest with this issue. It has nothing to do with the receivers
software, this is a hardware problem with both the 211 and 622.
THey keep saying that it's software related that way we all sit around waiting
for a magic fix to be downloaded to the receiver and not insist that Dish replace
their defective receivers.
Too many people lost their HDMI's and didn't take any software download.
Mine was fine then as I was watching a program it died! No software download was involved!
It's time we all got together and demanded new receivers, once it starts costing
them money it'll get fixed right quick!

#8 OFFLINE   brucewilsonpa

brucewilsonpa

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 17 posts
Joined: Jul 03, 2006

Posted 26 July 2006 - 06:30 AM

Too many people lost their HDMI's and didn't take any software download. Mine was fine then as I was watching a program it died! No software download was involved!


My less than 2-week old VIP-622 was working fine until I turned it on to discover neither the HDMI nor the component connections worked any longer -- seems like a hardware problem to me.

When I contact E* tech support the gal I spoke with told me the computer "solution" described it as a software problem (so they are aware of it) but she also told me the instructions to her are "not to exchange the unit" -- I had to argue and finally got her to agree to replace the unit, although she openly stated I could experience the same problem in the new unit (which, based on discussions here I recognize is likely).

I share the concern over E* focusing on a software solution -- I don't see how the suddenness of this happening can be attributed to software -- seems too much like the typical hardware problem. My VIP-622 runs pretty hot and although I've tried to ensure there is adequate space around it for ventilation that would seem to me to be a more logical path to explore (I did not check to see if my HDMI cable was running hot, although when I fiddled with the connector on the DVR end the connector was hot, but that might have been due to the DVR itself, not the cable.).

Bruce


Dish HD VIP-622
Dish SD DVR 625
Samsung DVDR DVD-VR345
Sharp Aquos HDTV LC26-D40U

#9 OFFLINE   rice0209

rice0209

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 142 posts
Joined: Oct 10, 2005

Posted 26 July 2006 - 07:26 AM

Ron,

My situation is somewhat interesting. I have an onkyo A/V receiver that has HDMI inputs/output. With my 921, i converted the DVI to hdmi and ran that into the back of my onkyo a/v receiver. Then I ran an hdmi cable from the onkyo to my projector. Worked like a charm. In fact, anything I use in my system, x-box 360, dvd player, whatever, all hooks up to the back of my onkyo and is then upconverted to hdmi and sent out to the projector in hdmi.

My 622 hooked up in hdmi has never given me any signal to the projector. Same goes with the replacement unit.

I thought that maybe taking the onkyo receiver out of the equation and hooking the projector directly to the 622 would fix it, but i did not get any signal to the projector from the 622 with the original or the replacement unit. I have dabbled with every option on the projector, receiver, and what limited choices there are on the 622 (mainly resolutions) and nothing has ever given me a picture.

I am currently hooked up via component to the back of the onkyo receiver, upconverting that to hdmi and running that to my projector. It works, but its not as pretty as my 921 when it was hooked up dvi and actually working.

I will check what software version the replacement 622 is on and report back.

#10 OFFLINE   DonLandis

DonLandis

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 3,363 posts
Joined: Dec 17, 2003

Posted 26 July 2006 - 07:27 AM

I posted elsewhere, but will repeat here that my HDMI connection remains good and it is not hot at all. The hottest part of the 622 is the top cover and that is just warm to the touch or about 94 degrees F. average. I use a fan to circulate air around the 622. I'm now one month old and have yet to take any software upgrade since installation. I, too feel this is a hardware failure and it does seem reasonable to suspect Dish is telling us to sit tight to save on the cost of replacements. One has to look at all the statistics on this that we have available. There is very little if any evidence to suggest it is software. I've only seen specualtion from a few software experts who are capable of imagining scenarios that could cause a failure of this sort. I have not seen any postings where a person had a failed HDMI and got a replacement and that failed too. Finally, for a CSR to refuse to replace a 622 and ask you to wait on a software upgrade makse no sense. That CSR must be a moron since the failure of both the component and the HDMI leaves you with no picture. I would have said to the CSR- If you are refusing to replace the defective hardware, please credit my account 100% and transfer me to your supervisor. You can't argue with a numbskull, try someone else. When they hear complete credits and account cancellation and the reason is they can't supply you with a working leased receiver, then you should get all your money back. Hope you were on CC autopayy as then you can enter the CC company too . Trust me, you will get what's right but not from the numbskull CSR.

Just as we all discovered the HDMI failure in the TIVO was hardware as in a MFG defect easily fixed, I'd bet these 622's are all hardware issues as well. They just don't want to deal with the thousands that are defective, especially if they can convince you to use the component. The excessive heat in that area seems indicative of the impending failure. That excessive heat cannot be a good thing!

#11 OFFLINE   wingnut1

wingnut1

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 112 posts
Joined: Nov 10, 2005

Posted 26 July 2006 - 11:37 AM

My HDMI failed. Only I determined that it was the HDMI port on my television not the one in the 622. Good thing the TV was still under warranty because the part alone was $175.

#12 OFFLINE   welchwarlock

welchwarlock

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 193 posts
Joined: Jan 05, 2005

Posted 26 July 2006 - 12:14 PM

My HDMI port worked for 3 weeks, then died. They exchanged the receiver, and It has worked ever since.

If your port was working, then failed, get a replacement receiver.

If your port never worked, get a replacement receiver. If it is still bad, your TV has an interface problem and requires a software update of either your TV or your receiver.

My Two Bits.

WW

#13 OFFLINE   wje

wje

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 424 posts
  • LocationNew England
Joined: Mar 08, 2006

Posted 26 July 2006 - 05:28 PM

Dish is not being honest with this issue. It has nothing to do with the receivers
software, this is a hardware problem with both the 211 and 622.
THey keep saying that it's software related that way we all sit around waiting
for a magic fix to be downloaded to the receiver and not insist that Dish replace
their defective receivers.

Deja vu! A lot of us current and ex-D* users had exactly the same problems with the HR10-250. I went through three of them. Fortunately, HDMI is working just fine on my 622.

The real cause of the problems is likely to be similar to what was wrong with the HR10. There was a hardware problem that affected some users, a separate software problem that affected others, and a whole different set of issues that weren't the fault of the HR10 at all, but were problems with the TV's HDMI implementation.

D* gave me and many others the same runaround, first claiming they had never heard of the problem, then claiming it was a software problem, and finally fixing the hardware and software.

To be fair to both D* and E*, given all the permutations of the issue, it could well take the engineers a while to sort it out.

As mentioned in an earlier post, a significant amount of blame lies in the HDMI spec itself. It's very complex, especially when HDCP is involved, and there are no real compatibility tests specified or required. It's all because of the copyright holders being terrified of allowing any access to the HD bitstream outside of their control. Most of the HDMI compatibility problems come from this. There is a (again, very complex) handshake that goes on between connected devices to authenticate them as 'trusted'. Producers can even add revocation info in the data stream to revoke connection privileges for devices that have been found to be compromised or hacked. Talk about your studio paranoia. This means that someone can decide your $5000 Foobaz scaler is not trustworthy, and effectively turn it into a brick by revoking authorization on-the-fly.

Most amusingly, shortly after the HDCP encryption spec was finished, some researchers showed how to completely compromise it in an undetectable way with relatively little effort; look on wikipedia for HDCP. So, we're suffering so the content providers can not protect themselves in a complex way that is useless. Figures.

The HDMI 2 (officially, 1.3) spec is out, and it addresses a number of issues, such as compliance test requirements, better sound sync, and adds even more complex encryption. (HDMI/HDCP encrypts the bytestream using 56 bit encryption; if I remember correctly, 1.3 goes to 128 bit. Jeez!)

My avatar says it all.


#14 OFFLINE   brucewilsonpa

brucewilsonpa

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 17 posts
Joined: Jul 03, 2006

Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:38 AM

In the FWIW category: Talked with an E* CSR last night as I activated my replacement VIP-622. He sounded reasonably knowledgeable and was immediately familiar with the "famous" VIP-622 HDMI problem. Insisted it IS software-related and said they have a software fix being tested. I was skeptical pointing out that the suddenness of these failures and the number of failures that seem to just happen around 2-4 weeks after first using the 622 all point to hardware problems. He agreed it might seem this way but seemed convinced (from whatever source of knowledge he has) the problem is tied to software that "gets confused" with the HDMI port signals and "shuts itself off". Interesting! He sounded more knowledgeable of the actual technical aspects than most CSR I've spoken with, so maybe he's got some "truth" here. If what he said about software fix being tested is accurate there's hope (although who knows when it will finish testing)!

Bruce


Dish HD VIP-622
Dish SD DVR 625
Samsung DVDR DVD-VR345
Sharp Aquos HDTV LC26-D40U

#15 OFFLINE   rice0209

rice0209

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 142 posts
Joined: Oct 10, 2005

Posted 28 July 2006 - 09:36 AM

I am very confused about this problem in general.

It was my understanding that Dish subbed out the production of these units. I know my 921 was a JVC product. I am not sure what my 622 now is because i never took the time to look.

The reason i say this is that it seems as if Dish is trying to fix the problem themselves. This would make sense if they designed the unit completely. I guess I am wondering if the unit was completely designed by someone else, say JVC, or if the hardware was one company and Dish did the software.

If it was a hardware issue only, i would expect the manufacturer of the hardware to be forced to resolve the issue quickly, more than likely having to recall the units. It does seem software related since many people's issues seem to coincide with software releases. I am sure though, that with the many different versions of hdmi in the market place, that there are some users who have problems that are hardware related between their tv and the 622.

I still wonder though if this all goes back to the port being called an "HDTV" port rather than an "HDMI" port. To me it seems like dish did not want to pay the big bucks and maybe skirted the design a little bit. If that was the case, the HDMI folk would not let them put their tag on it unless it conformed completely. I guess though that the hardware could be to spec but maybe there was a dollar premium to getting the "HDMI" tag on the 622's front cover.

#16 OFFLINE   motrac

motrac

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 39 posts
Joined: Jan 05, 2003

Posted 28 July 2006 - 11:07 AM

Even though it'll void my warranty tomorrow I"M going to open up my 622 and
do some testing on my non-working HDMI port.
I'm getting real tired of not getting what I paid Dishnetwork for, that is a fully working VIP622.

#17 OFFLINE   rice0209

rice0209

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 142 posts
Joined: Oct 10, 2005

Posted 28 July 2006 - 11:28 AM

As petty as dish was with me and my numerous 921's if I were you I would not risk screwing up getting your free replacement from dish.

They treated me and many others like crap through out that all too long history of the 921, and I guess they kind of bended a little bit by giving us the reabate on upgrading to the 622.

If you have automatic billing, I can assure you that if you ever send that unit back, and they see you have tampered with it that they will automatically charge your bank account or credit card with the full price of the receiver.

I have never done auto bill pay with Dish because two of my friends both had dish charge them unfairly without notification. At least if you don't have auto bill pay they have to ask for the money rather than you trying to get that money back from them.

#18 OFFLINE   garhow

garhow

    New Member

  • Registered
  • 1 posts
Joined: Jul 09, 2006

Posted 28 July 2006 - 02:09 PM

I bought a 622 a couple of weeks ago and so far it's been working fine. Today I bought an HDMI cable, anxious to compare the picture quality. I plugged it in and no signal on that port on the TV. I have a Samsung DLP projection set. I know several have reported that HDMI worked for awhile and then stopped working. In my case, it never worked at all. Anybody else experience this problem? Should I contact Dish?

#19 OFFLINE   Presence

Presence

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 361 posts
Joined: Mar 14, 2004

Posted 28 July 2006 - 08:01 PM

garhow, did you bother to read any of this thread at all?

#20 OFFLINE   rice0209

rice0209

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 142 posts
Joined: Oct 10, 2005

Posted 29 July 2006 - 10:16 AM

Garhow,

Your experience is extremely similiar too mine as stated above. In read this forum regularly, i have seen that many Samsung DLP owners have had HDMI problems. I am not saying that it is definitely a problem with the hdmi technology that samsung uses, but from what i have observed there does seem to be a common thread with samsungs and no hdmi signal.

I have a Hitachi HDPJ52 projector that has also never gotten a picture with HDMI. I have tried every possible thing I can think of and every soulution that posters on this board have suggested with no luck.

To me, this seems like a situation where we can only be patient and hope dish finds a solution.




Protected By... spam firewall...And...