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eSATA - Has been enabled, but....


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#181 OFFLINE   hdtvfan0001

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 05:10 AM

I thought the whole point of RAID was that data was mirrored, so in case of a drive failure you don't lose your data.

And if the data is mirrored, and you had two 500GB drives, I would think you would still only have 500GB, not 1TB???

That's not RAID works.

RAID is not "mirrored" data storage, its distributed data storage - the data is split up among multiple drives in a data string, so that if one fails, an algorithm can calculate the missing part of any data string and restore it on a newly inserted replacement drive. This way, regardless of which physical drive fails, recovery can take place.

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#182 OFFLINE   macmantis

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 05:24 AM

RAID definition changes on the level. RAID level 0 acts different than RAID level 1. Also , the larger level number does not necessarily mean anything. I have not posted enough so I can not post a link but wikipedia has an extensive article and will do a better job than me. The article is RAID at wikipedia.

#183 OFFLINE   911medic

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 05:56 AM

I thought the whole point of RAID was that data was mirrrored, so in case of a drive failure you don't lose your data.

And if the data is mirrored, and you had two 500GB drives, I would think you would still only have 500GB, not 1TB???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID 0 is "striped" which offers better performance but "halves your mean time to failure" as indicated above, since you're relying on two HDDs. Striping does increase capacity as it causes the system to see the two drives as one large drive (no data redundancy).

RAID 1 is "mirrored" which makes a duplicate copy of your data on the second drive, which offers better protection, since if one drive fails you have an exact copy of everything on the second drive (data redundancy). Mirroring doesn't increase storage capacity, since it sees both drives are seen as one same-sized drive.

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#184 OFFLINE   911medic

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 05:57 AM

That's not RAID works.

RAID is not "mirrored" data storage, its distributed data storage - the data is split up among multiple drives in a data string, so that if one fails, an algorithm can calculate the missing part of any data string and restore it on a newly inserted replacement drive. This way, regardless of which physical drive fails, recovery can take place.

Depends on the level, as stated above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

Current Hardware:
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#185 OFFLINE   sbcale

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:08 AM

Can the T3 be upgraded yet?


Yes, they can be upgraded. :)

http://www.weaknees....s-3-hd-tivo.php

#186 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:40 AM

Yes, than can be upgraded. :)

http://www.weaknees....s-3-hd-tivo.php


Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...
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#187 OFFLINE   PoitNarf

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:50 AM

Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...


Actually this caught my attention even more:

"Buy this TiVo and get your existing lifetime TiVo service transferred for $199!"

One would think that a lifetime subscription would not have transfer fees when you upgrade to a newer box. But Sirius does the same thing with their lifetime subscriptions, annoying but true. I still don't understand why these companies charge insane fees for what amounts to just changing a few fields in some database tables...

#188 OFFLINE   sbcale

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 07:51 AM

Yikes those are some heavy duty prices...


Yeah, and then on top of that add the Tivo monthly service charge and whatever you have to pay for cable and DirecTV is a steal.

#189 OFFLINE   cabanaboy1977

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:04 AM

Actually this caught my attention even more:

"Buy this TiVo and get your existing lifetime TiVo service transferred for $199!"

One would think that a lifetime subscription would not have transfer fees when you upgrade to a newer box. But Sirius does the same thing with their lifetime subscriptions, annoying but true. I still don't understand why these companies charge insane fees for what amounts to just changing a few fields in some database tables...


That's because "lifetime" is the lifetime of the box, or at least that's the way it was explained to me.
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#190 OFFLINE   borghe

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 09:55 AM

Yeah, and then on top of that add the Tivo monthly service charge and whatever you have to pay for cable and DirecTV is a steal.


to be fair, the "monthly tivo service charge" is more than made up for by not having to pay for a digital cable DVR and DVR service fee from cable. In my area at least, TWC is only charging $1.75/month per cablecard. so $3.50 + $13 = $16.50/month. Now take into account that our boxes are $8/month and our DVR service is $7/month. $15/month... and of course if you do a lifetime sub on that tivo (which is in your price that you are gawking at), your monthly subscription is only the $3.50 for two cablecards.

not too bad. of course the box is still $800, but considering I paid $1000 for my HR10.... again, not too bad. and in two years when you'll be able to get the series 3 for like $199 with no contract vs DirecTV committing to a two year contract.. something to think about.

#191 OFFLINE   sbcale

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 10:28 AM

to be fair, the "monthly tivo service charge" is more than made up for by not having to pay for a digital cable DVR and DVR service fee from cable. In my area at least, TWC is only charging $1.75/month per cablecard. so $3.50 + $13 = $16.50/month. Now take into account that our boxes are $8/month and our DVR service is $7/month. $15/month... and of course if you do a lifetime sub on that tivo (which is in your price that you are gawking at), your monthly subscription is only the $3.50 for two cablecards.

not too bad. of course the box is still $800, but considering I paid $1000 for my HR10.... again, not too bad. and in two years when you'll be able to get the series 3 for like $199 with no contract vs DirecTV committing to a two year contract.. something to think about.


Ok, well this is how I am looking at it. I have 2 HR20s, an HR15, a HR10, and a SAT-T60. To get ONLY 2 HD Tivos to replace my HR20s (one of which I paid for the other I got free, so a total cost to me of $300) I would have to spend $1600 on the HD Tivos and $16 - $20 (I am not sure about the cost of a Tivo subscription) on each of the Tivo monthly subscriptions plus the cable card fee for each and that is not including my 3 other DVRs (of those I only had to pay for 1). I do not have a lifetime subscription to transfer, and even if I did it wouldn't cover the 2-3 HD DVRs I want to have. I am only paying $4.99 a month for 4 of the DVRs so that is far cheaper than the monthly cost of a Tivo subscription. Not only that but my cable company is about 25% more expensive than DirecTV with a comparable package. So to me that seems not too bad.

#192 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:14 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID

RAID 0 is "striped" which offers better performance but "halves your mean time to failure" as indicated above, since you're relying on two HDDs. Striping does increase capacity as it causes the system to see the two drives as one large drive (no data redundancy).


Striping disks (RAID 0) in general provides a performance improvement. However, for the HR20 and the video streaming operations, there is little need for improvement. The data "flow rate" really isn't going to change since there's pretty much just one application running on the HR20. The only "benefit" is the ability to increase your disk capacity by doubling, tripling, etc. your devices. A larger device should be preferred over two smaller devices in this particular scenario (HR20). You should only need a striped setup if you are using the maximum sized drives available to increase your storage capacity; otherwise, you are increasing your possibility of failure with no real benefit.

RAID 1 is "mirrored" which makes a duplicate copy of your data on the second drive, which offers better protection, since if one drive fails you have an exact copy of everything on the second drive (data redundancy). Mirroring doesn't increase storage capacity, since it sees both drives are seen as one same-sized drive.


The RAID 1 setup, as mentioned here, greatly improves your reliability. If there is some way to know that a drive has gone bad, you can simply replace the bad drive with a good one. No capacity improvement, but significant reliability improvement.

There is also RAID 5 and RAID 4, both of which basically use an extra drive in an array of 3 or more drives to provide both redundancy and improved performance. RAID 10 is a set of striped (RAID 0) drives that is mirrored (RAID 1) with another set of striped drives. RAID 10 gives you both perfomance and capacity improvements as well.

This is just my 2 cents of information.
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#193 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:24 AM

In reality, the HR20 can support only one external device with 2 disks combined by RAID-0 or RAID-1 - your choice is very limited.

Not necessary to blur the topic ( sorry for my pick on matto ).

#194 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:27 AM

In reality, the HR20 can support only one external device with 2 disks combined by RAID-0 or RAID-1 - your choice is very limited.

Not necessary to blur the topic ( sorry for my pick on matto ).



Not necessarily...
If someone built a RAID-0 enclosure that would support more then two drives.
So long as it exposed it self via the eSATA connection... it should work.
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#195 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:31 AM

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.

#196 OFFLINE   DJConan

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:32 AM

I wouldn't touch them with a 1000 foot SATA cable!

I've dealt with Deathstars at many previous jobs, and I'll never put any trust in any drive with that model name! :D


I've dealt with thousands of hard drives with my job and have to say that it's a matter of preference. I've seen them all fail equally. I think people should buy the one that meets their expectations. Some are quieter, some are faster, some are cooler and some are cheaper.

Me personally...I currently have a WD Raptor, Diamond Max 10 and a "Deathstar" in my most used system. My "Deathstar" is the oldest running drive of the bunch at this point in time.

At the time I bought my Hitachi, it was one of the fastest 7200rpm drives. When I bought the Maxtor later on, that was one of the fastest 7200rpm drives and when the Raptor reached my price point, obviously, that's the fastest drive I have. :)

I would think the faster drives would improve start up performance slightly as well as a stripped RAID, but how much faster? I think in a DVR, the preferences of most would look something like: Noise > Temp > Cost > Speed.

#197 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:36 AM

I would say from business point of view: COST-> SPEC ie speed, etc including NOISE.

#198 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:38 AM

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.



Hmm...did not know that....

Well at least with two striped 750gb, that gives you pretty good sized hard drive.
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#199 OFFLINE   PoitNarf

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 11:47 AM

There is some technical obstacles of SATA standard what cannot be avoid without adding SW support of multiple hosts by HR20 including new SATA controller in it.
So, Earl - sorry, no way to do that.


Are you refering to port multipliers? I know I've seen self RAIDed enclosures that support 2 drives, but I haven't seen any with more than 2 drives without the attached disclaimer stating that the SATA controller it connects to needs to support port multipliers.

#200 OFFLINE   DJConan

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Posted 06 October 2006 - 12:07 PM

I would say from business point of view: COST-> SPEC ie speed, etc including NOISE.


I agree from a business view, cost would likely be first. I was referring to the DIY people here. I think for an add-on drive, a lot of people would be concerned about noise.

Maybe I'm wrong...I personally don't care about noise so long as it's not unusually loud. I've read lots of reviews of people complaining the Raptors are loud. Inside my computer, I don't hear any of my hard drives, so I don't care. :lol:

When I'm 10-15 feet away from my TV and HR20 and have surround sound blasting away, I surely won't hear the little clicks of a hard drive. :)




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