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Guest Message by DevFuse

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eSATA - Has been enabled, but....


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#141 OFFLINE   jedster

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:36 PM

They will never sell a unit without a hard drive inside of it.

This is the solution for the immediate future. Long Long term... They do have some other plans, but for the practicle period of time... this is the eSATA feature.


Put on your crystal ball hat: do you think they will deliver a PC card capable of tuning D* under Windows Vista or multi-room viewing first?

I say this assuming that eSATA enhancements are likely to come after both. And both of those are germane to the issue of how much storage you have, each for different reasons.

While I'm at it, do you know what filesystem D* uses? I.E., could a PC read a D* eSATA drive?
- 10 years and counting with D*
- 3 HR20s (2 modified to be silent)
- 2 H20s connected via S-Video to my HTPC (Vista Media Center)
- Anxiously awaiting D*'s tuner for Windows Vista (hope they don't screw it up like CableLabs did!) :)

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#142 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:38 PM

Put on your crystal ball hat: do you think they will deliver a PC card capable of tuning D* under Windows Vista or multi-room viewing first?

I say this assuming that eSATA enhancements are likely to come after both. And both of those are germane to the issue of how much storage you have, each for different reasons.

While I'm at it, do you know what filesystem D* uses? I.E., could a PC read a D* eSATA drive?



With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.
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#143 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:43 PM

Right, but again : 500+250 will give only 500 GB.
You don't need identical HDD, just similar size, total = smallest size x 2.

Some of the new RAID controllers now support JBOD (Just a Big Ol' Drive).

#144 OFFLINE   rabi

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:43 PM

With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.


Does the HMC still EXIST?????

#145 OFFLINE   jedster

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 03:43 PM

With my crystal ball.... PC Card for Windows Vista, if I was a betting guy.
MRV is probably not going to be available until the HMC... but that is in MY crystal ball... not based on information I have been given.

And yes... eSATA enhancements are pretty far down the list.
A PC could "see" the drive, but the data is encrypted so you would get very far with it.


I hope you are right. I met an HTPC enthusiast from Microsoft earlier this year who said he was sure the D* card would come before CableCard. He followed up with me on e-mail with the same info, but it appears that he may not be right. However, hopefully D* will be less restrictive than CableCard insofaras allowing you to add the D* card after-market. Have you heard anything about this?

p.s.: My bet on the over-under for a D* vista card would be next May. What do you think?
- 10 years and counting with D*
- 3 HR20s (2 modified to be silent)
- 2 H20s connected via S-Video to my HTPC (Vista Media Center)
- Anxiously awaiting D*'s tuner for Windows Vista (hope they don't screw it up like CableLabs did!) :)

#146 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:28 PM

Some of the new RAID controllers now support JBOD (Just a Big Ol' Drive).


JBOD = Just a Box Of Disks; a mode where each disk device is presented as its own target.. that's a bit different than raid 0 concat, where drive space is simply concatenated together.

#147 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:32 PM

Do yourself a favor and use matched pairs of drives.
Other combos will work, but may give you some nasty surprises later.

Also keep in mind that if you stripe across two disks, you are halving your mean time to failure- meaning you're twice likely to experience a disk failure, and a failure of either means you lose all the data on your array.

Yeah, a pair of new identical drives would be top choice;
but regading your statistical math ... nay, you don't know this ;) ; look 0.95 of each drive will give 0.95x0.95=0.9025 total reliability, the rule is use multiply, not dividing by.

#148 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:35 PM

JBOD = Just a Box Of Disks; a mode where each disk device is presented as its own target.. that's a bit different than raid 0 concat, where drive space is simply concatenated together.

not "simply", but as a sequence of "stripes" accross all disks included into RAID-0
Man, where is your certificate ? :)

Also, JBOD is "Just a Bunch Of Disks"

#149 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:38 PM

not "simply", but as a sequence of "stripes" accross all disks included into RAID-0


No, I said raid 0 concat, not raid 0 stripe.

Man, where is your certificate ? :)

No certificate, just a decade and change in the industry..


Also, JBOD is "Just a Bunch Of Disks"

I beg to differ, but either works fine.

#150 OFFLINE   YankeeFan

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:45 PM

I beg to differ, but either works fine.



Actually RAID-0 will give you better performance. If I understand it correctly, JBOD will write to one disk until it is full and then start on the second disk, whereas RAID-0 will write to both disks at the same time using both channels.


HR20-700 --> HDMI --> Mitsubishi HD1000U DLP PJ (1 TB eSATA RAID)
HR20-700 HDMI --> DVI --> Toshiba 57HX93 RPTV
Philips DirecTivo --> S-Video --> Toshiba 57HX93 RPTV
Philips DirecTivo --> S-Video --> Samsung 20" LCD

AT-9 Dish
Zinwell WB68 6x8 Multi-Switch

#151 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:45 PM

matto, you messed with JBOD or logical volume; RAID-0 still be a stripe set accross many (2+) disks for do cut response time reducing head's movement. Decade ? Too old, loosing memory of old stuff :D.

#152 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:50 PM

Actually RAID-0 will give you better performance. If I understand it correctly, JBOD will write to one disk until it is full and then start on the second disk, whereas RAID-0 will write to both disks at the same time using both channels.


Close, but no.

JBOD presents each storage device as a seperate target, so each physical disk can be addressed individually.

RAID0 concat simply aggregates the drive space by concatenating the end of one to the beginning of another. Think of stacking books.

RAID0 striping spreads the data across all the devices its been given in small chunks call ed stripes. You'll get better performance striping, but have much less chance at data recovery if a device fails.

#153 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:54 PM

matto, you messed with JBOD or logical volume; RAID-0 still be a stripe set accross many (2+) disks for do cut response time reducing head's movement. Decade ? Too old, loosing memory of old stuff :D.


No, actually, I do this for a living, instead of skimming wikipedia articles.

#154 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 04:59 PM

Well, that's going into real challenge ( you're not only one who works for server support ).
What equipment you pointing ? Platform, HA, management SW, FW revision ?
Skimming ? Have seen first Radiion boxes ? Yeah, it was long before your 10 year experiense start...
No, you'll not slip here, man ! :)

Your "concat" mode just lame name/implementeation of JBOD. Are you trust those marketing gimmicks ?
What the company manufacture this thing ? Is is HW RAID controller ?

You probably don't understand initial idea of RAID invention, just rely to that word on your console. The "concut" mode make no different to logical volume management - nothing to gain, not a close to RAID type.

#155 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:07 PM

Well, that's going into real challenge ( you're not only one who works for server support ).
What equipment you pointing ? Platform, HA, management SW, FW revision ?
No, you'll not slip here, man ! :)


Wow, you talk like Yoda.

Anyway, I don't do "server support", I did large-scale site architecture.
Probably a few names you'd recognize. BBN Planet, Electronic Arts, Sony, Register.com, UC Berkeley. A couple of national-footprint ISPs in Japan.

For the last year or so I've been writing software instead, its much less grunt work.

Where have you been working?

Platforms? Mostly Solaris and RHEL. I've done some IRIX work but won't admit it.
HA? Sure. Did some clustering. Qualix, Veritas Cluster, Sun Cluster.

What have you worked with, and did you implement, or just maintain?

Not really here to toot my horn, just trying to inject some factually correct information in the thread.

#156 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:17 PM

:backtotop Alright Alright... before you all start to whip it out and measure.......
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#157 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:17 PM

I came from server's farms trenches and had a deal with system architectors ...
Well, now I know where is the "concut" came from. :lol: Good Lord.
Our fields not crossed. And I have respect to the authors of RAID concept In Berkeley !
http://www.cs.cmu.ed...Patterson88.pdf

Solaris and RHEL ... , well it was when SunOS been alone and SCO Unix began his way up, I did build a lot of Sun servers and SS using RAID different levels by my hands literally, but never saw/heard about RAID-0 "concut".
Probably it's just system architector's slang. :lol:

#158 OFFLINE   matto

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:18 PM

:backtotop Alright Alright... before you all start to whip it out and measure.......


i couldn't pass up a "real challenge" :lol:

#159 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 05:20 PM

And for the record... I was referring to whipping out the resumes and measuring line items..... what did you think I was refering to?

!devil12:
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#160 OFFLINE   sthor

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Posted 05 October 2006 - 07:36 PM

In this quote from the OP:

"DirecTV will NOT increase their designed usage space for recordings. (these numbers are estimates)If if you add a 500gb drive; 400gb will be for user space, 100gb for DirecTV. If you had 21TB; 20,900gb for user space, 100gb for DirecTV Edited from original post"

I am unclear what you mean by "100gb for DirecTV" vs "user space".

I added a second 80 gb Maxtor to my Sony SAT-60 DirecTivo about 5 years ago so I am not totally unfamiliar with the concepts, just the terminology. I am planning to upgrade to the HR-20 or possibly going to the darkside and getting a Tivo S3 when I upgrade to HD this Christmas. I am used to having 105 hrs of TIVO time and would be unhappy with less.




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