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HR20 - ATSC/OTA Discussion


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#101 OFFLINE   Meklos

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:08 PM

I have a really stupid question... I still have Comcast coming in with limited basic... I have an HD Tuner on my tv... can the OTA be used in the same fashion?


ATSC is OTA, NTSC is broadcast analog, QAM is what most digital cable systems use.

The OTA tuner in the HR20 is ATSC only.

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#102 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:13 PM

It will use a little more than HD MPEG-2 on the satellite, because it's not bit starved. It will use a LOT more than MPEG-4/HD-Locals on the satellite.


Actually, that would depend on how many sub-channels your local OTA affiliate has! ;)

~Alan

#103 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:15 PM

I'm sorry if this is a bit redundant and maybe should be asked in another thread but are you saying that every time you split with a passive splitter you drop 50%?

Some of the better splitters have the attenuation printed on the device. The unit of measure is dB and it is a logarithmic scale.
  • -1dB is a 21 % decrease
  • -3dB is a 50% decrease
  • -20db is a 99% decrease
Along with dividing up the signal, there is also a factor called "insertion loss" that happens each time you go in and out of couplers.

Here's the specs on Monster's (also sold under other brands) splitters for perspective:

2-way 3.5dB
3-way 5.7dB
4-way 7.4dB
5-way 12dB

Note that these numbers are for frequencies up to 1GHZ. Above that, the loss is noticeably higher, but OTA doesn't go that high.

All of the specifications aside, it must be remembered that while the desirable signal is being attenuated, so is the undesirable signal. You can usually split a good signal four ways without getting in too much trouble.

#104 OFFLINE   wpbond69

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:32 PM

Earl,

Can you clean up the links on the DBS Talk home page for the OTA new release?

For previous releases, there is a link to the release notes and a link to the discussion. Right now, there is a link that says it is for the discussion, but it takes you to the release notes.

Also, on the release notes that appear when you click "Discussion", it does not have the paragraph below about the staggered release. This paragraph is on a different release notes post in the thread about all HR20 releases notes (which isn't linked to the front page currently as "Release Notes").

I think clearing this up and making sure the rollout info is in the updated Release Notes post will reduce the questions about when people will get it.

Missing paragraph:

Extended Staggered Rollout: Small subset of users first (mostly Pacific Timezone), then a gradual increaes of the user base. primarily by timezones. Being that this is such a large release, it make take several days for everyone to receive the update. Please don't ask why you don't have the update, unless you see an update that the release has gone national; and you don't have the release yet.

:)

#105 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:34 PM

Earl,

I have a question.

I held off on getting an HR20 earlier this year due to not getting a good enough deal and the lack of an OTA tuner, along with issues experienced by those who own the HR20... and I'm glad I waited since OTA kept being delayed and MOST of my viewing are the networks.

HOWEVER, I do have some questions regarding the OTA guide.

1. I live in a smaller DMA (#147) surrounded by two bigger DMAs (#109 & #125), and one of the few complaints I've had regarding the HR10-250 (as well as other DirecTV HD receivers) are the option for only TWO DMAs. Is there any hope for the HR20 to ever support more?

2. Two of the DMAs I live in have some inccorect guide data information being sent. One of them, WTXL-DT (27-1 & 27-2) has both channels listed on DirecTV HD receivers as 27-1. In my DMA, we have one missing sub-channel, one channel whose primary channel information is missing, and one whose primary channel is missing, but there sub-channel information is available on the wrong RF frequency. My question is this, will DirecTV setup a page ala TiVo where you can report incorrect guide data since the HR20 is their baby?

Also, as a little note, while the HR10-250 started out setting up their local networks with a zip code ala the HR20, they later (with a software upgrade) made it where you could pick a DMA by name which made it a lot easier during initial setup for people who didn't know a zip code in their secondary market. Pass it along! ;)

~Alan

#106 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:44 PM

Earl,

Can you clean up the links on the DBS Talk home page for the OTA new release?

For previous releases, there is a link to the release notes and a link to the discussion. Right now, there is a link that says it is for the discussion, but it takes you to the release notes.

Also, on the release notes that appear when you click "Discussion", it does not have the paragraph below about the staggered release. This paragraph is on a different release notes post in the thread about all HR20 releases notes (which isn't linked to the front page currently as "Release Notes").

I think clearing this up and making sure the rollout info is in the updated Release Notes post will reduce the questions about when people will get it.

Missing paragraph:

Extended Staggered Rollout: Small subset of users first (mostly Pacific Timezone), then a gradual increaes of the user base. primarily by timezones. Being that this is such a large release, it make take several days for everyone to receive the update. Please don't ask why you don't have the update, unless you see an update that the release has gone national; and you don't have the release yet.

:)


Thank you... I hae made those adjustments
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#107 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:45 PM

Also, there doesn't seem to be a general discussion for 0x104 right now. There are only the 3 special dicussions for OTA, History changes and Record Page changes. Will there be a general discussion?

In particular, I'm curious, what are the Trickplay improvements for this release?


http://www.dbstalk.c...ead.php?t=72036
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#108 OFFLINE   biggorilla

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:46 PM

Your Terk amplified antenna may be overdriving the HR20 and causing it to lose signal. Reduce the gain on the Terk or turn off the power to it and see what happens.


Thanks for the help!

The Terk HDTVs is a passive antenna. There is no power going to it. The only power is from the distribution amp and the end before the TV. I have tried taking off the amp but still get virtually no signal to the HR20. The TV's ATSC tuner works flawlessly with my current set up.
biggorilla

Equipment:
DirecTV HD DVR (HR20-700) 2nd owned
DirecTV 5-LNB/AT9 Multi-Satellite Dish
Terk Off-Air HDTV Antenna (HDTVs)
Sony 50" Rear LCD (KDFE50A10)
Yamaha 7.1 Receiver (RX-V1500)
Toshiba HD DVD Player (HD-A20)
XBOX 360
Harmony 880 Remote


Configuration:
Video: HR-20 to Yamaha Receiver via Component, XBOX 360 to Yamaha Receiver via Component; Receiver to TV via Component; HD DVD to TV via HDMI
Audio: HR-20, HD DVD Player, & XBOX 360 via Optical into Yamaha Receiver

#109 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:48 PM

Earl,

I have a question.

I held off on getting an HR20 earlier this year due to not getting a good enough deal and the lack of an OTA tuner, along with issues experienced by those who own the HR20... and I'm glad I waited since OTA kept being delayed and MOST of my viewing are the networks.

HOWEVER, I do have some questions regarding the OTA guide.

1. I live in a smaller DMA (#147) surrounded by two bigger DMAs (#109 & #125), and one of the few complaints I've had regarding the HR10-250 (as well as other DirecTV HD receivers) are the option for only TWO DMAs. Is there any hope for the HR20 to ever support more?

2. Two of the DMAs I live in have some inccorect guide data information being sent. One of them, WTXL-DT (27-1 & 27-2) has both channels listed on DirecTV HD receivers as 27-1. In my DMA, we have one missing sub-channel, one channel whose primary channel information is missing, and one whose primary channel is missing, but there sub-channel information is available on the wrong RF frequency. My question is this, will DirecTV setup a page ala TiVo where you can report incorrect guide data since the HR20 is their baby?

Also, as a little note, while the HR10-250 started out setting up their local networks with a zip code ala the HR20, they later (with a software upgrade) made it where you could pick a DMA by name which made it a lot easier during initial setup for people who didn't know a zip code in their secondary market. Pass it along! ;)

~Alan


I am unaware of any plans to allow more then "two" DMA's

As for the bad guide data... I don't know of any plans, considering the HR10-250 was "their" guide data... but right now you can email the affiliates and DirecTV, or post over at forums.direcTV.com

I will pass along the DMA selection idea.
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#110 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:50 PM

Thanks for the help!

The Terk HDTVs is a passive antenna. There is no power going to it. The only power is from the distribution amp and the end before the TV. I have tried taking off the amp but still get virtually no signal to the HR20. The TV's ATSC tuner works flawlessly with my current set up.


Does the antenna feedline come all way down to the HR20 before the distro amp split? If so, turn off the amp, disconnect the antenna from the distro amp, and connect it directly to the HR20. See what it looks like there. It could be that the distro amp is ovedriving the HR20 or that you have a cable problem.

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

HR24-200, H21-200. Samsung UN60C6400 60" LED/LCD

DirecTV since 1995


#111 OFFLINE   biggorilla

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:56 PM

Does the antenna feedline come all way down to the HR20 before the distro amp split? If so, turn off the amp, disconnect the antenna from the distro amp, and connect it directly to the HR20. See what it looks like there. It could be that the distro amp is ovedriving the HR20 or that you have a cable problem.


The feedline comes directly down to the amp from the roof. I have taken the amp completely out of the loop and got no signal. Should I turn off the amp even if nothing is plugged into it? The feedline is 2 months old and it works perfectly with the amp to my Sony TV's ATSC tuner. It's just when I try to send it to the HR20's ATSC Tuners (and this was true with the HR10-250) , I get no signal with or without the amp. As I said originally, it's a puzzle. Thanks again!
biggorilla

Equipment:
DirecTV HD DVR (HR20-700) 2nd owned
DirecTV 5-LNB/AT9 Multi-Satellite Dish
Terk Off-Air HDTV Antenna (HDTVs)
Sony 50" Rear LCD (KDFE50A10)
Yamaha 7.1 Receiver (RX-V1500)
Toshiba HD DVD Player (HD-A20)
XBOX 360
Harmony 880 Remote


Configuration:
Video: HR-20 to Yamaha Receiver via Component, XBOX 360 to Yamaha Receiver via Component; Receiver to TV via Component; HD DVD to TV via HDMI
Audio: HR-20, HD DVD Player, & XBOX 360 via Optical into Yamaha Receiver

#112 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:57 PM

I am unaware of any plans to allow more then "two" DMA's


That doesn't effect me too much since I'm planning on buying a TiVo Series 3 next year for my OTA recording, but I do think DirecTV should take it into consideration.

As for the bad guide data... I don't know of any plans, considering the HR10-250 was "their" guide data... but right now you can email the affiliates and DirecTV, or post over at forums.direcTV.com


I've contacted the affiliates on several occasions. On more than one occasion, they have not bothered to write me back. I have contacted some affiliates and was told that the reason I could not receive their guide data was because I could not receive their channel. I've contacted some affiliates and were told they would work on it, but nothing ever happened. I've contacted some affiliates and they managed to fix theirs, or partially fix theirs.

I have also contacted Tribune and was told they would look into it, but no changes yet.

~Alan

#113 OFFLINE   JJaret

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 01:58 PM

Earl:

I noticed there is no ability to scan for additional OTA channels in this release. This feature has been available in all the previous HD receivers/dvr's that D* has offered. Are they going to add it or are we at the mercy of D*'s ability to keep its channel list up-to-date? It looks like they have all channels and subchannels in the list for LA, they haven't in the past.

Thanks,
Jeff

#114 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:04 PM

Earl:

I noticed there is no ability to scan for additional OTA channels in this release. This feature has been available in all the previous HD receivers/dvr's that D* has offered. Are they going to add it or are we at the mercy of D*'s ability to keep its channel list up-to-date? It looks like they have all channels and subchannels in the list for LA, they haven't in the past.

Thanks,
Jeff


I believe that functionality will come to the unit in a future release, but for now they opted to enable the channels they had guide data for.
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#115 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:17 PM

The feedline comes directly down to the amp from the roof. I have taken the amp completely out of the loop and got no signal. Should I turn off the amp even if nothing is plugged into it? The feedline is 2 months old and it works perfectly with the amp to my Sony TV's ATSC tuner. It's just when I try to send it to the HR20's ATSC Tuners (and this was true with the HR10-250) , I get no signal with or without the amp. As I said originally, it's a puzzle. Thanks again!


yes, turn the amp off, it could be oscillating due to improper termination of both its inputs and outputs...but I doubt it is the problem...a real stretch. Every tuner is different in terms of how much signal it will tolerate before overloading. If, when you are using your distro amp, you have unused outputs, terminate them with 75 ohm pads (also available at Radio Shack)

Go to to radio shack and get a variable 75 ohm attenuator. Put the coax from the antenna into your distro amp (put previously mentioned 75 ohm terminators/pads on any unused outputs), put the variable 75 ohm attenuator on the output from the distro amp to the input of the HR20 and try various settings of attenuation to see if a pix will pop on.

If I understand you correctly, the HR10 atsc tuner would NOT work with your current setup either? That is curious.

...hasan, N0AN

SlimLine5-SWiMLNB/DECA/WHDVR
HR44-700, WD20EURX 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Max 5 Enclosure

HR24-200, WD20EVDS 2 TB eSATA/ThermalTake Dock

HR24-200, H21-200. Samsung UN60C6400 60" LED/LCD

DirecTV since 1995


#116 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:24 PM

Is there anyway to combine two antennas?



I just use a splitter in reverse, works great...

I have 2 antennas because most of the stations antennas in my area are south of me, however the ABC affiliate's is North. I have on Antenna facing south and one facing north. I took the outputs from the antennas and ran them into the 2 outputs of a splitter. I then took the input side of the splitter and ran it to a preamp outside and the output of that inside. I then run it into the preamp power and then to a 4 way splitter [2 for the 2 tuners on my TV, 1 for my HR10 and 1 for my HR20]. Works great and I've had no problems with my HR10, haven't gotten the upgrade on my HR20 yet.
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#117 OFFLINE   RunnerFL

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:26 PM

Yes, look for the Channel Master Jointenna. You order it for a specific channel and it will let you combine that channel on one antenna with the rest from another antenna. You can stack them if you need to use more than 2 antennas.



That works great, but only if you need 1 channel off the 2nd antenna. If you need 2 or more the jointenna is useless.
THIS SPACE FOR RENT

#118 OFFLINE   jba115

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:31 PM

I have kept my antenna connected to my Samsung 160. It's the antenna (I believe Terk) which D* installed when I set up my HD three years ago. I assume (as much as I hate to do that), that I can merely move the OTA cable from the Sammy to the HR20 and be good to go. Correct?
White Sox Fan
Samsung PN50A450 Plasma
Mits WS65857
Both with HR20-100 (HDMI & Component) Also HR21-100 on Mits
Wireless network via Netgear WNR2000, two D* powerline adapters
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#119 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:32 PM

I have kept my antenna connected to my Samsung 160. It's the antenna (I believe Terk) which D* installed when I set up my HD three years ago. I assume (as much as I hate to do that), that I can merely move the OTA cable from the Sammy to the HR20 and be good to go. Correct?



Once you receive the 0x104 update.... yes, you can move your antenna signal. Then run the Setup for OTA, and you are good to go.
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#120 OFFLINE   biggorilla

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Posted 07 December 2006 - 02:44 PM

yes, turn the amp off, it could be oscillating due to improper termination of both its inputs and outputs...but I doubt it is the problem...a real stretch. Every tuner is different in terms of how much signal it will tolerate before overloading. If, when you are using your distro amp, you have unused outputs, terminate them with 75 ohm pads (also available at Radio Shack)

Go to to radio shack and get a variable 75 ohm attenuator. Put the coax from the antenna into your distro amp (put previously mentioned 75 ohm terminators/pads on any unused outputs), put the variable 75 ohm attenuator on the output from the distro amp to the input of the HR20 and try various settings of attenuation to see if a pix will pop on.

If I understand you correctly, the HR10 atsc tuner would NOT work with your current setup either? That is curious.


Yes, that's correct. The HR10 couldn't pull signal either. I haven't seen the attenuator on radio shack's website. Is this something they may just have at the store and not listed? Can't really find to many others on the net as well. Any suggestions?
biggorilla

Equipment:
DirecTV HD DVR (HR20-700) 2nd owned
DirecTV 5-LNB/AT9 Multi-Satellite Dish
Terk Off-Air HDTV Antenna (HDTVs)
Sony 50" Rear LCD (KDFE50A10)
Yamaha 7.1 Receiver (RX-V1500)
Toshiba HD DVD Player (HD-A20)
XBOX 360
Harmony 880 Remote


Configuration:
Video: HR-20 to Yamaha Receiver via Component, XBOX 360 to Yamaha Receiver via Component; Receiver to TV via Component; HD DVD to TV via HDMI
Audio: HR-20, HD DVD Player, & XBOX 360 via Optical into Yamaha Receiver




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