Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

If its linux based give the communinty a chance to look at the code


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
24 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   elas123

elas123

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 107 posts
Joined: Dec 06, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:10 AM

Earl if the security is in place, cant directv make the source code available for people to look at and maybe give suggestions or correction. This maybe stupid but maybe there are ppl here that could see problems!

...Ads Help To Support This Site...

#2 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 36,908 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:25 AM

Earl if the security is in place, cant directv make the source code available for people to look at and maybe give suggestions or correction. This maybe stupid but maybe there are ppl here that could see problems!


In a perfect world, this would be a great solution. I just don't think there's a NDA strong enough to cover releasing the source code on a developing retail product.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#3 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

Doug Brott

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 28,929 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles
Joined: Jul 12, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:52 AM

I don't know the answer to this, but here is my speculation:

I'm almost positive that the HR20 uses the Broadcom BCM7038 as the CPU. This chip has some decoding capabilities. In addition, the HR20 has the BCM7411 for the primary MPEG4 decoding operations. I also believe that DirecTV uses some "retail" version of Linux that runs on the BCM7038 processor which would mean that they wouldn't have any legal reason to release the source code.
DIRECTV Firmware Monitor - iPhone - Android - HTML5

DIRECTV employee since August 2011.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#4 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

Earl Bonovich

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Registered
  • 30,092 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 08:57 AM

Let's put it this way.

The Chicago Cubs would have to be playing the Chicago White Sox in the world series... for a game 7 that goes 37 innings... and the Major Leagues call it a tie... before you see the source code for the HR20... ;)
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#5 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

Stuart Sweet

    The Shadow Knows!

  • Super Moderators
  • 36,908 posts
Joined: Jun 18, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:01 AM

Not quite sure what you're saying, Doug --

If it's Linux or some other X flavor, then sure we could all get the OS pretty easy, but I think that it's the HR20-specific code that's really the issue, not the core OS. Just because it was built on an open-source OS doesn't mean that the HR20 code is open source or protected by GPL.

Sure I'd love to get my hands on it and see what's wrong but what's to stop me from customizing it to my heart's delight? With enough time I'd figure out how new firmware gets loaded, write my own and put it on the HR20. I think we've seen D*'s stance on hacking, and [given this forum's rules] I understand.
Opinions expressed by me are my own and do not necessarily reflect
those of DBSTalk.com, DIRECTV, DISH, The Signal Group, or any other company.

#6 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

Doug Brott

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 28,929 posts
  • LocationLos Angeles
Joined: Jul 12, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:10 AM

Not quite sure what you're saying, Doug


Let's just say I agree with Earl. Anything that DirecTV has that should be Open is probably from somewhere else (my speculation). Anything that DirecTV has created on their own, no way in .. well, you get the picture. :)
DIRECTV Firmware Monitor - iPhone - Android - HTML5

DIRECTV employee since August 2011.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#7 OFFLINE   Spanky_Partain

Spanky_Partain

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,499 posts
Joined: Dec 07, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:23 AM

Then we could blame each other instead of the common love/hate relation we currently have with D* if we got our hands on the code! :lol:

Even though it would be fun to poke around in the code and give suggestions on where things might could use some tweaking, think of it as your 5 year old talking to you at the same time you are trying to get a bid out on a job that will make you or break your business. D* won't give you check-in capabilities and the developers have enough on their plate instead of trying suggestions from individuals who don't have the BIG PICTURE information. Would be fun though!

Should it be open source? I can tell you right now, there are good reasons why everything is not open source. Somebody comes up with a HD chipset that has FLB buffers, four channel PIP in HD, internet download capabilities, retrieve anything from your server and use it, and it only costs $299. The only thing you need is the code to do all this on your hardware. You got the code and it is open source. Guess who will be building and selling the product? Anybody who wants too!

Anyway...
Here is a link to the Broadcom BCM7038 if you want to take a look at it...
http://www.broadcom....7038-PB01-R.pdf

-Mark-
"There's no place like 127.0.0.1 or ::127.0.0.1 or 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 or ::1!"
Support the DBSTalk forum, become a member, Click Here!
For Networking Help, Click Here!
For my setup, Click Here!
3/98


#8 OFFLINE   solo1026

solo1026

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 129 posts
Joined: Mar 21, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 09:37 AM

Let's put it this way.

The Chicago Cubs would have to be playing the Chicago White Sox in the world series... for a game 7 that goes 37 innings... and the Major Leagues call it a tie... before you see the source code for the HR20... ;)


Chicago Cubs!!! It will never happen:uglyhamme Does anyone know why? HEHE
DirecTV Since 1996!
Primary Set-up Livingroom
AT9 5LNB Dish > 6X8 Multiswitch > w-BBC's > HR22 -100 > HDMI > Mitsubishi Full-1080P 57"- DLP > 1080i Native OFF >
OTA Channel Master 3010 Antenna to Mitsubishi 57" for Local HD > Network-Buffalo WLI-TX4-G54HP with VOD inabled > 0x0342> MPEG4 HD Locals from DTV

Second Set-up Bedroom
Samsung 32" LCD 720P > HR21 -200 > 1080I Native OFF > Not in Network

3rd Set-up
Philips 32" LCD 720P > HR20-700 0x0342 > 1080I Native Off > Not in Network

#9 OFFLINE   dewalt

dewalt

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 14 posts
Joined: Jan 23, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:24 AM

If it was linux, with a most likely modified kernel, wouldn't they have to publish their changes? I know Tivo does.

#10 OFFLINE   linuxworks

linuxworks

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 138 posts
Joined: Dec 27, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:36 AM

If it was linux, with a most likely modified kernel, wouldn't they have to publish their changes? I know Tivo does.


they should have to. but that is not the value-add, I don't think.

talking to their custom chips, THAT is value add.

decrypting all that encrypted mess - THAT is value add. and people would just LOVE to be able to see the logic of how to decode satellite streams! ;)

you'd need (maybe) an ICE or at least a logic analyzer (it IS am embedded system, afterall) to fix tough problems. you'd need a lot of things to really be effective in hacking and fixing things.

someday, HD will be 'broken' (figured out) and then we can get around all this HDMI protection nonsense, be able to use a regular old linux pc to do our recording and playback, etc. we can do all that today with SD - but the media companies are trying their best to have the HD generation NOT have the same freedoms that we won for ourselves, before.

give it time. for me, the commercial products that do dvr are just a stop-gap measure until the encryption from cable cards and so on is broken and we can finally have control restored back to us, the consumers.

but in the meantime, expect a big fight. heck, I can't even get dvi->hdmi to run my lcd tv at full native res. I have to fallback to vga (sigh) since the vendors and standards bodies built in a layer of politics in the tech standards for HD ;(

I am only with the set top boxes for as long as I have to. I do dream of the day when we can have the same freedoms on HD that we 'enjoy' on SD.
--
Bryan
(Software Engineer, Network Design, Management and SNMP Troublemaker-at-Large)

#11 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

Earl Bonovich

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Registered
  • 30,092 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:39 AM

I do dream of the day when we can have the same freedoms on HD that we 'enjoy' on SD.


It's not an HD vs SD thing

It is an Analog vs Digital thing.

Just so happens that HD is broadcasted in the Digital arena.
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#12 OFFLINE   macEarl

macEarl

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 257 posts
Joined: Jan 01, 2007

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:48 AM

If it was linux, with a most likely modified kernel, wouldn't they have to publish their changes? I know Tivo does.


Isn't that only for GPL'd content? Just because something runs under GNU/Linux doesn't mean it's open source. If you develop in gcc, I think the only requirement is to not strip the object files - but it's been a long while...

#13 OFFLINE   Spanky_Partain

Spanky_Partain

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 5,499 posts
Joined: Dec 07, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:50 AM

If you feel like reading a long article from the considered "experts" about open source, the comparisons, and where it is heading, then take a look at this link...

http://catb.org/~esr...nation-201.html

Basically, he is promoting closed source on certain things, such as drivers, so new hardware can be introduced to Linux faster without having to provide source to avoid the "tainted kernel".

-Mark-
"There's no place like 127.0.0.1 or ::127.0.0.1 or 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 or ::1!"
Support the DBSTalk forum, become a member, Click Here!
For Networking Help, Click Here!
For my setup, Click Here!
3/98


#14 OFFLINE   chrisfowler99

chrisfowler99

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 198 posts
Joined: Aug 23, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 10:57 AM

Let's put it this way.

The Chicago Cubs would have to be playing the Chicago White Sox in the world series... for a game 7 that goes 37 innings... and the Major Leagues call it a tie... before you see the source code for the HR20... ;)

So you're saying there's a chance...

#15 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

Earl Bonovich

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Registered
  • 30,092 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:07 AM

So you're saying there's a chance...


There is always a chance....
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#16 OFFLINE   elas123

elas123

    Legend

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 107 posts
Joined: Dec 06, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:12 AM

but if the box updates itself, directv has ultimate control over the software being installed. if they have the right security inplace. the box will know if modified software is on the box and update accordingly. jsut a thought

#17 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

Earl Bonovich

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Registered
  • 30,092 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:14 AM

but if the box updates itself, directv has ultimate control over the software being installed. if they have the right security inplace. the box will know if modified software is on the box and update accordingly. jsut a thought


And that is exactly what happens on the DTivo R10 model.
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#18 OFFLINE   elas123

elas123

    Legend

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 107 posts
Joined: Dec 06, 2006

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:16 AM

earl what with having to replace the chip to mod it?

#19 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

Earl Bonovich

    Lifetime Achiever

  • Registered
  • 30,092 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:21 AM

earl what with having to replace the chip to mod it?


Yep... That is why you have to replace the prom chip in the R10... to stop it from replacing the modified code segments.

And that is as far as I want to "delv" into that topic... ;)
Earl - Gotta Love Karma

DIRECTV employee since April 2008.
All comments are my own. Unless specifically stated, my views do NOT represent the views of DIRECTV

#20 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

Tom Robertson

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,263 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 10 January 2007 - 11:26 AM

Another thing to also consider. Unlike some companies where any developer can look at all the code in an application, Directv has IP that must be very carefully protected (namely the DRM) that some people have paid huge $$ to break. I've read stories of people taking their BUD STB from scientific atlanta to labs with electron microscopes to figure out how they work! (Actually some cool articles, :) )

So I would not be surprised if Directv is more compartmentalized. There very well could be sections of the code that very few people are allowed to see. (Especially anything involving decoding, decrypting, PPV, etc.)

I think Earl has overestimated the odds in his example. :( The Cubs and Sox might some year actually see each other in the WS.

Though it was a very good indicator of the ballpark odds...(yeah, shoot me, pun was intended, I need to go back to my cage again.)

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)





Protected By... spam firewall...And...