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Direct tv comments on the hr-20


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40 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 02:28 PM

There is a lot more to "has it been replaced"

If the same question was asked of me, with regards to my HR10-250... I had it replaced 3 times, before I gave up and found my own solution. But that was nearly 2 years ago.

As for the HR20...
When did you have it replaced? And Why? And By who's recommendation?

All factor into it... the "value" of that 18% number.

Earl,

You are so right. If boxes repalced were truely the problem, the odds of the second one being defective as well would be: 18.6% x 18.6% or 3.4%. It is just like the odds of rolling snake eyes (two ones) is 1/6 x 1/6.

So if it really were the hardware in the first place with a failure rate of 18.6%, the failure rate on the replacement units should be 3.4%. It isn't. The failure rate on the second units is 27%.

That shows that for most of the replacements hardware was not the cause. At a previous company, the service manager said that the most important reason for sending out a replacement is to force the user to re-attach the cables and hopefully snug them up this time.

Here are two of the statements from the analysis:

"The replacement rate on the HR20 is high. But notice that the replacements often do not help. This would indicate that the problems are often not due to the hardware."

"While this sampling is large, it does not represent a random sampling of all HR20 users."

This group is far from average.

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#27 OFFLINE   bwaldron

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 02:37 PM

At a previous company, the service manager said that the most important reason for sending out a replacement is to force the user to re-attach the cables and hopefully snug them up this time.


Yikes!

#28 OFFLINE   jcormack

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 02:44 PM

I have had an HR20 since Jan 9th - I have had a replacement unit since Jan 25th. the original unit was on 119 and 11b software. The main (Only) issue I had with it was a SEVERE audio problem on the Mpeg2 HD channels (70's) - they were unwatchable. As I had been reading this forum before taking the plunge I knew D* was working on software I waited on the Software release to see if the audio improved - it did not. D* sent out a tech - he could not fix problem (changed LNB's checked cables, etc.) - He stated he had never seen this particular problem. All other aspects of this device worked OK for me - All my recordings were OK, caller ID worked, and no BSOD, BSB's, or IKD's. The replacement unit (refurbished) fixed the audio problem (Yea!) - but the caller ID does not work & I have had one unwatchable recording and one IKD with the replacement unit. I have not had any recording problems in the last 11 days. My OTA is spotty, but I realize I need a better UHF antenna - Caller ID still does not work correctly (don't get on screen pop-up), but that is not a deal breaker for me. I do however need to get the dish installer back out as I have lower signal strength since the tech messed with the LNB's.

#29 OFFLINE   jahgreen

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 03:11 PM

Earl,

You are so right. If boxes repalced were truely the problem, the odds of the second one being defective as well would be: 18.6% x 18.6% or 3.4%. It is just like the odds of rolling snake eyes (two ones) is 1/6 x 1/6.

- Craig


Only if the events were truly independent, a statistician would say. Probably not the case here.

In addition, the folks responding to the survey are not a random selection of all HR20 users. Therefore, it is impossible to draw any statistically significant conclusions from the data.

But I'm not saying that it doesn't show a lot more issues than should be in a consumer device.

#30 OFFLINE   ouijal

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:31 PM

Aka... braking down that 18% number, between:
Hardware - HR20 issues
Software - HR20 issues
Other technical issues (Switches, dishes, cables)
Technical Support: CSRs not knowing the system well enough, and replacing units that really didn't need to be replaced

And so on.



Which are all still DirectV's problem, correct?

And I would also break down the 82% who did not return their HR20 between those who do not have any problems, those who have problems but are deciding to deal with them rather than do something drastic like return the box, and those who are not savvy enough to realize their box has problems and a replacement is an option.

#31 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 04:45 PM

Which are all still DirectV's problem, correct?

And I would also break down the 82% who did not return their HR20 between those who do not have any problems, those who have problems but are deciding to deal with them rather than do something drastic like return the box, and those who are not savvy enough to realize their box has problems and a replacement is an option.


Yes, and I didn't say they were not.

But if "in the details", shows that they where Software... then that is correctable, with no user intervention, and possible has already been fixed. Where Hardware... there is nothing that even the "advanced user" can do about it.
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#32 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:10 PM

The survey is certainly informative, but it is not scientific. There are many data elements missing that make it impossible to take statistically valid conclusions from it.

Earl, do you have sense of the total number of HR20 units in D* service?


I suspect we'll end up agreeing to disagree. Can we say with certainty that x% of all existing HR20s have been replaced, no. And we're not. And I contend that isn't important to know with a certainty of 1%.

But we can say that a large number, relative to normal consumer electronics standards, are being returned. Even if the "real" number is double or half the results acheived here, we are still left with a large number. Even if the "real" number is off by a factor of 4!

Again, it is not what the "real" number is. That isn't really important. The magnitude matters.

What Craig's and Doug's work shows is that instituting workarounds, we can reduce the likelihood that we'll be sent a replacement unit by CSR. These workarounds are not reasonable as permanent feature reductions, but they are reasonable until DIRECTV fixes the underlying problems.

Cheers,
Tom

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#33 OFFLINE   ouijal

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:11 PM

Yes, and I didn't say they were not.


Yes, and I didn't say you didn't say they were not. Glad we could clear that up.

But if "in the details", shows that they where Software... then that is correctable, with no user intervention, and possible has already been fixed. Where Hardware... there is nothing that even the "advanced user" can do about it.


Well of course things are rarely as cut and dry as "hardware" and "software". On a piece of equipment like this they are so closely intertwined that you are in a chicken and egg scenario. It is not like the software was written to run on different hardware. And at the end of the day it is still all DirectV's problem to sort out.

#34 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:22 PM

Not so, it was quite easy to complete the survey multiple times. Access the survey from a different computer, clear your cookies, use 2 different browsers (ie and firefox) or, if I recall, just simply close your active browsers to clear the session cache....

I only participated once from work, but when I tried to reaccess from home, I got a fresh input screen as well as when I tried another day at work.

The survey required no special user authentication, much less proof that you owned an HR20. So the results, while interesting, are probably statistically meaningless due to a high margin of error....


Yes, there are some issues that need to be worked out to make it even more accurate. The method I use to determine a "unique" person is the IP address of the source host. This will be the external IP address of whatever machine you are using. This does have some inherent issues, but nonetheless the pattern of results held true from about 90 respondents up to 777 respondents. This at least lends credence to the collection method despite the flaws. Additionally, if there are two people in a household that want to respond differently regarding two different HR20s, then it is possible (even likely) that only the latest response is calculated.

I've considered other approaches but they can be equally troublesome. The key is to try and get it right without eating up too many resources. Some methods I've considered are:

  • Require Login - This is inherently better than IP alone, but it still has potential flaws. The good news is that it will keep honest people honest, but if you are trying to break the system then you sign up for multiple accounts. The other thing is that not everyone wants to advertise their E-mail address to a "Survey" site. This would allow me to store actual results and make them available to you regardless of which computer you use for access, though.
  • Generate a Hash - This is pretty much the same as requiring login without actually requiring you to sign up. Your E-mail address would still be used as the determining factor, but the hash could be added to the results rather than the E-mail address. The hash would be E-mailed back to you as a unique identifier, I could generate a one-way hash based on your E-mail address and then not actually store the address. A little more secure, but you could simply use multiple E-mail addresses to bypass the limitation.
  • Some Hybrid - Record the IP number AND a Hash/E-mail so that only the first Hash/E-mail can be used from a particular IP number (i.e. once the hash/e-mail has entered results into the database then that hash/e-mail is the golden value. Any other hash/e-mail could be summarily dismissed). The person could use the same hash/e-mail from different IPs, but once an IP was matched to a hash/e-mail, then no other hash/e-mail could be used.

Anyway, just wondering if anyone else has some thoughts. I really don't want to impose too many requirements because I want the process to be simple.
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#35 OFFLINE   john18

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 05:46 PM

Is there a way for those folks who have multiple HR-20's to be able to respond multiple times? Can the unit's serial number work as an ID, or is that information D* doesn't want used?

#36 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 06:36 PM

The survey required no special user authentication, much less proof that you owned an HR20. So the results, while interesting, are probably statistically meaningless due to a high margin of error....

Say-What,

You bring up some good points. Part of the reason that we give everyone the raw data is that you are free to look for the identical answers of someone stuffing the ballot box. I see three sets like that for a total of 6.

Regardless, there will never be a scientific poll of dbstalk users unless your survey is looking for middle-aged men who love their TVs and have dangerously high IQs. Stranger still, it's men who will sit talking about the TVs instead of watching them.

The point of the data is not that it is an 18.6% replacement rate. If D* knows it to be less, I think they would tell us. Whatever it is, it's a big number.

I honestly thought that it would be more like 5% and the ones with the problems were just that persistent. My apologies. :)

The point at least for me is to better understand.

For months now we have been in two camps: The ones with problems and the ones without. At times people all but called each other liars.

If you use the drop down filters, you see that the ones with the replacements are having all kinds of problems. Others seem to be having no troubles.

But this thought that there might be some specific causes has been going around for some time. Look at how many posts there have been about HDMI.

I don't think that we see any new trends here. For me it just substantiates much of what we have been reading for months.

I really would like to see if the Big 5 work-around make a difference for people. Do those 5 things and see if it helps. As Doug said, we want to come back with a follow-up survey to see how we are progressing.

And Say-What, I think you would like Chicago. As we say, Vote Early, Vote Often!

- Craig

#37 OFFLINE   say-what

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 06:58 PM

And Say-What, I think you would like Chicago. As we say, Vote Early, Vote Often!

We do the same in New Orleans :D Oh, and about what those Bears did to my Saints :mad: Why couldn't Bad Rex have shown up a game earlier...:lol:

Really, I find the results helpful in documenting user habits of board members and the problems they've had. Judging from the volume of complaints, I was expecting far more "bad results" than were reported. So what I get from this is that while the HR20 has problems and is not a "perfect" unit, it's not as bad as it's critics are making it out to be - although I'm surprised at the 18% replacement rate. But, I'd suspect that the vast majority of the unit's problems are software related and correctable.

#38 OFFLINE   rpl47

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:26 PM

I'm on my third replacement HR20 since July '06. The other two crashed. The 1st one was stuck on the "Step 1 of 2" screen at startup, and the other just had a black (or blank) screen. My current one has numerous audio dropouts and now has developed these "red laser-pointer" type dots. I've tried all different connection set-ups (w/HDMI, w/o HDMI, w/Opt., w/o Opt). I, for one, have not been satisfied in the least with these units, esp. since I was 95% problem free with the HR10-250.

I am impressed with what the HR20 is CAPABLE of, but at the very least, it has to record what I want it to and allow me to hear it as well! These units have been out now for 7 months now (maybe more) and are still very error prone. I think just about everyone in this forum has reached a point where various HR20 issues and problems have become acceptable, i.e. "I just got XXX download, everything is ok, just lost one recording, had to do a RBR, but other than that, everything is OK, for now". That, to me, is unacceptable...not after 7 + months.

However, I'm still sticking w/ D*, and I'm still sticking with the HR20....but I don't have to like it!!!!

Earl, you have been great. I really appreciate all your insight and time spent in this forum. However, I can't recall you ever reporting a problem with YOUR HR 20. I'm sure you've had problems...it's ok...you can tell us...you don't have to keep sticking up for the HR20...you can give it a shot now and then!!!:lol:

#39 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:34 PM

Earl, you have been great. I really appreciate all your insight and time spent in this forum. However, I can't recall you ever reporting a problem with YOUR HR 20. I'm sure you've had problems...it's ok...you can tell us...you don't have to keep sticking up for the HR20...you can give it a shot now and then!!!:lol:


Actually, I have... I just have not had many.

I had a BSB, early December.
I have not had either HR20 miss a recording in months, and I have only one or two unplayables... and it has been a while.

January, I don't think I had one issue with any of the national releases.
I have had some of the commone ones found in the CE's (like the banner issue)...

but seriously... for the most part, my HR20's have been EXTREMElY good.
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#40 OFFLINE   rpl47

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Posted 08 February 2007 - 07:42 PM

Actually, I have... I just have not had many.

I had a BSB, early December.
I have not had either HR20 miss a recording in months, and I have only one or two unplayables... and it has been a while.

January, I don't think I had one issue with any of the national releases.
I have had some of the commone ones found in the CE's (like the banner issue)...

but seriously... for the most part, my HR20's have been EXTREMElY good.




There you go!!! Now don't you feel better to let it all out!!!:lol: I bet it feels good to vent a little:hurah: !!! But seriously ( and honestly) , have you experienced better or worse results w/the HR20 than you did w/ the HR10-250 during the same initial release time of about 7 months or so...and be honest!!!

#41 OFFLINE   CTJon

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 09:27 AM

I am afraid that Mr. Carey is in a world of his own and not all the HR20 users live in that world like his...........


I'll bet his works just fine.




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