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Unwatchable recordings on command


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58 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 09:53 PM

Sorry...

Don't be. I saw the LOL...
A.K.A VOS

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#42 OFFLINE   jlancaster

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 09:53 PM

you know I love ya...I'm just trying to make sense of this....You are the best VOS!

SWMline
(2)HR20-700 50" Sony dlp hdmi, 50" vizio plasma hdmi...1 HR21-100 to26 Vizio hdmi, R22-100 to sdtv

#43 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 10:56 PM

This is amazing...and weird.

VOS, when we are doing this we have to be carefull not to click our heels together 3 times.

One of the correlations I researched was did one tunner or less that 5 LNB's have any effect on problems. I could not find a correlation. I am going to try some other ways. I never tried one tuner againts video problems...

Tonight I am doing CC testing for Cap. Tomorrow I will look more at the data.

VOS, Excellent Work!

Now I am thinking what other back doors are there...

-Craig

#44 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:11 PM

This is amazing...and weird.
VOS, when we are doing this we have to be carefully not to click our heels together 3 times.
One of the correlations I researched was did one tuner or less that 5 LNBs have any effect on problems. I could not find a correlation. I am going to try some other ways. I never tried one tuner against video problems...
Tonight I am doing CC testing for Cap. Tomorrow I will look more at the data.
VOS, Excellent Work!
Now I am thinking what other back doors are there...
-Craig

I'm not going to raise the flag and proclaim victory.
What "my gut" tells me is: most of the installer only hand tight the cables. my last one left a cable three turns from being "snug" at my WB68. Now with the tuners changing cable feeds [for various reasons], and not displaying a 771 error with a lost of signal, some of the "unwatchable" recording could be from loose cables that you wouldn't know if you didn't physical check each one with a 7/16 wrench.
This is just my [gut] thought of why some of us "do & don't" have problems.
Some of us correlate data, some of us have feeling of "how things work" & do a "gut check".
If we all keep up our work someday.....
A.K.A VOS

#45 OFFLINE   jlancaster

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:14 PM

vos for president

SWMline
(2)HR20-700 50" Sony dlp hdmi, 50" vizio plasma hdmi...1 HR21-100 to26 Vizio hdmi, R22-100 to sdtv

#46 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:21 PM

One thing to remember: Taking a satellite feed off an HR20 that thinks it has two feeds is not a normal operation for the HR20. As some point, it is supposed to convert to a single feed operation, but until that time, these tests are not against a recommended configuration.

Sure, it can highlight how the thing works and perhaps come up with some insight into failures. But the tests that I've done, where a dual feed box has a line unplugged does not mirror the tests that i've done with a single feed box.

A single feed box that thinks its a single feed box works just fine on all channels, records correctly, knows when its tuners are full (depending on OTA or satellite), etc. Indeed, my single feed box has been fairly stable, only one lockup (that I caught before it missed any recordings.)

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#47 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:30 PM

I'm not going to raise the flag and proclaim victory.
What "my gut" tells me is: most of the installer only hand tight the cables. my last one left a cable three turns from being "snug" at my WB68. Now with the tuners changing cable feeds [for various reasons], and not displaying a 771 error with a lost of signal, some of the "unwatchable" recording could be from loose cables that you wouldn't know if you didn't physical check each one with a 7/16 wrench.
This is just my [gut] thought of why some of us "do & don't" have problems.
Some of us correlate data, some of us have feeling of "how things work" & do a "gut check".
If we all keep up our work someday.....


The loose cable theory is not new at all. What it does not explain is why some many problems also occur in very solid infrastructures like mine--4 other Tivos all active, all making great recordings. And this: my problems have varied by the software download, not by anything else.

Sure, loose cables can play a part. But that will never explain, to my satisfaction, a lockup. that is always software that can't tolerate faults (except in the very rare case of truly bad hardware) but Craig's and Doug's survey show that isn't the problem or replacements would work more often than they do.

VOS, you were most correct in your first analysis: "Its the software."

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#48 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:36 PM

The loose cable theory is not new at all. What it does not explain is why some many problems also occur in very solid infrastructures like mine--4 other Tivos all active, all making great recordings. And this: my problems have varied by the software download, not by anything else.
Sure, loose cables can play a part. But that will never explain, to my satisfaction, a lockup. that is always software that can't tolerate faults (except in the very rare case of truly bad hardware) but Craig's and Doug's survey show that isn't the problem or replacements would work more often than they do.
VOS, you were most correct in your first analysis: "Its the software."
Cheers,
Tom

Yes it's software.
The loose cable is for when it isn't a lockup but a missed, blank, or unwatchable recording and the box still responds [as mine has most of the time]. This may just be a "subset" of "the problem".
And it could all come down to "the software" & I must discount the fact that I had one cable loose on my WB68 for the whole time I've had my problems. Time will tell.
A.K.A VOS

#49 OFFLINE   Coffey77

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:39 PM

I'm just going to throw in my 1/2 a cent here and agree with the software problem. I mentioned once before about how if seems to feel like it's the Apollo 13 movie where they have a certain number of AMPS to use and have to fire the correct sequence. I think the HR20 has the correct parts but I don't think the "switches" are firing up correctly or if they are, they aren't shutting down properly and causing a leak or a resource deficiency. There ya go, paid in full! :)
- Andy
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#50 OFFLINE   cygnusloop

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:40 PM

I hope we can stay OT, which is why or how come there are "unwatchable" recordings.




It seems clear that there is some logic behind how these "tuners" work that isn't readily apparent. I hope someone who knows something about how this box works under the hood will chime in. Are there four discreet tuners in this thing? Two SAT, and two OTA? I think it's now clear that, at least, the SAT tuners are not hardwired to the SAT inputs. Would it make more sense to me look at it like there are two MPEG2/MPEG4 decoders capable of getting their input from any of the 4 available tuners/inputs?

Maybe the Unwatchable lives in how the decoders dynamically choose and attach to the different inputs.
Hmm..

#51 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:53 PM

It seems clear that there is some logic behind how these "tuners" work that isn't readily apparent. I hope someone who knows something about how this box works under the hood will chime in. Are there four discreet tuners in this thing? Two SAT, and two OTA? I think it's now clear that, at least, the SAT tuners are not hardwired to the SAT inputs. Would it make more sense to me look at it like there are two MPEG2/MPEG4 decoders capable of getting their input from any of the 4 available tuners/inputs?
At one level it is capable of writing two bit-streams to the disk at one time. It can write one from OTA and one from SAT, or of course, two from SAT. Apparently, if the SAT channels are properly "aligned" in is capable of doing it over a single input.

On the "front end" there are two SAT & two OTA tuners. I've looked through the cover. With the right control [14V, 20V, 22kHz] more than one transponder can send signals down the same cable to two tuners [SAT].
The "back end" is for others that know a whole bunch more than I do.

Anybody want to chime in here?
A.K.A VOS

#52 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 09 February 2007 - 11:57 PM

It seems clear that there is some logic behind how these "tuners" work that isn't readily apparent. I hope someone who knows something about how this box works under the hood will chime in. Are there four discreet tuners in this thing? Two SAT, and two OTA? I think it's now clear that, at least, the SAT tuners are not hardwired to the SAT inputs. Would it make more sense to me look at it like there are two MPEG2/MPEG4 decoders capable of getting their input from any of the 4 available tuners/inputs?

Maybe the Unwatchable lives in how the decoders dynamically choose and attach to the different inputs.
Hmm..


I can answer some of this: you have to be spot on that the Sat. tuners are not tied to particular inputs. (That might be a small bit of the FTM, i slightly correct myself). THere are 4 tuners (rumored to be a 3rd satellite tuner for "something" else...) and unlike the Tivo, an OTA is not tied to a satellite tuner (apparently.) Hence the HR20 can have two OTA even if only one Satellite feed is present.

As for MPEG decoders, there is one chip. Said chip is capable of decoding 1 HD stream or 2 SD streams. BTW, the stream is recorded directly to disk, with minimal changes. It is only decoded on playback, hence they only need one chip.

I'm certain that your analysis of the unwatchables is correct, for most people. There are so many indications that people are experiencing timing issues.

Now, when people have a show they can't record, time after time, or a channel they can't record, then that would be a hardware issue like a loose cable, failing LNB, or satellite alignment issue.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#53 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 12:02 AM

On the "front end" there are two SAT & two OTA tuners. I've looked through the cover. With the right control [14V, 20V, 22kHz] more than one transponder can send signals down the same cable to two tuners [SAT].
The "back end" is for others that know a whole bunch more than I do.

Anybody want to chime in here?


BTW, there are some very good discussions of whats coming down the coax on avsforums. 48 transponders are sent: the original set of 16 from a 3lnb, plus 16 KA high and 16 ka low. the KA low are the ones that the BBC's handle--by moving them back up (after the lnb takes them too low for the satellite tuners...)

But the KA low aren't active yet. that comes with the launch of the two new satellites

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#54 OFFLINE   cygnusloop

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 12:07 AM

I can answer some of this:


Thank you VERY much, Tom.

By the way VOS,
It is Friday, is the Leno test running?

#55 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 12:34 AM

BTW, there are some very good discussions of whats coming down the coax on avsforums. 48 transponders are sent: the original set of 16 from a 3lnb, plus 16 KA high and 16 ka low. the KA low are the ones that the BBC's handle--by moving them back up (after the lnb takes them too low for the satellite tuners...)
But the KA low aren't active yet. that comes with the launch of the two new satellites
Cheers,
Tom

This starts to get into "how do you conrtol 5 LNBs with 4 controls signals 14V, 20V & 22kHz ?
I'm not quite sure of the AVS transponder count.
I count right now:
29 transponders on 101,
3 on 110,
10 on 119 = 41 Ku active
For the Ka they list 6 for each [99 & 103]. I know I get 5.
If all six are active then 12, but 5 for sure, so
41 Ku + 5 [or 12] = 46 [or 53] without Ka low.
A.K.A VOS

#56 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 02:27 AM

Took some diggin' and assemblin' but here is my best understanding of how all thems transponders get down the coax:

Output IF Frequencies
Ka-Lo: 250 - 750 MHz (right on top of OTA)
Ku: 950 - 1450 MHz
Ka-Hi: 1650 - 2150 MHz

Stack Plan – 18V, 22khz
Ka-Lo: 103 LHCP
Ku: 110/119 LHCP
Ka-Hi: 103 LHCP

Stack Plan – 14V, 22khz
Ka-Lo: 103 RHCP
Ku: 119 RHCP
Ka-Hi: 103 RHCP

Stack Plan –18V, no tone
Ka-Lo: 99LHCP
Ku: 101 LHCP
Ka-Hi: 99 LHCP

Stack Plan – 14V, no tone
Ka-Lo: 99 RHCP
Ku: 101 RHCP
Ka-Hi: 99 RHCP

While I'm sure VOBWS knows RHCP and LHCP, they are the polarization of the electromagnetic waves: Right Hand Circular Polarization and Left Hand Circular Polarization.

I grabbed most of this chart from the WB616 pdf: http://www.solidsign...WB616manual.pdf

[disclaimers] I may have gotten the voltage/tone combinations wrong this late at night. Someone else can proof my work. Thanks. [/disclaimers]

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#57 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 08:35 AM

Tom, you should have gone to bed some time ago... ;)

From the Sonora pdf: it uses 14V & 20V to "lock".
D* seems to use 13V & 18V to control from their units. :)
RHCP= odd transponders, LHCP= even transponders

So for right now there are two, 500 MHz bandwidth, intermediate frequencies [IFs] coming into the receiver. When Ka low becomes active there will be three.
Both tuners can work off of one cable: if the channels are within one of the two [500 MHz BW] active IFs.
A.K.A VOS

#58 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 11:42 AM

Tom, you should have gone to bed some time ago... ;)

From the Sonora pdf: it uses 14V & 20V to "lock".
D* seems to use 13V & 18V to control from their units. :)
RHCP= odd transponders, LHCP= even transponders

So for right now there are two, 500 MHz bandwidth, intermediate frequencies [IFs] coming into the receiver. When Ka low becomes active there will be three.
Both tuners can work off of one cable: if the channels are within one of the two [500 MHz BW] active IFs.


You should have seen me digging into FCC docs last night. I finally found D10 and D11's configuration info... :) I think I crawled into bed sometime around 5ish.

I'll post the D10 and D11 info in the general DIRECTV discussion sometime later this morning.

Yeah, I found that the US standard voltages range from 12 to 14 and 17 to 20. I just used the ones I thought i saw most commonly on DIRECTV equipment.

Cheers, (and snore........)
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#59 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 10 February 2007 - 11:46 AM

You should have seen me digging into FCC docs last night. I finally found D10 and D11's configuration info... :) I think I crawled into bed sometime around 5ish.

I'll post the D10 and D11 info in the general DIRECTV discussion sometime later this morning.

Yeah, I found that the US standard voltages range from 12 to 14 and 17 to 20. I just used the ones I thought i saw most commonly on DIRECTV equipment.

Cheers, (and snore........)
Tom

Man are you ever a "trooper". "Back in the day" you would have been part of my combat support team. :D
Get some more sleep...!
A.K.A VOS




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