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Has this one been adressed?


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18 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Patsrockon

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 04:07 PM

One of my very few issues here, been very lucky with three of these for several months now. Recently I've had a couple of instances where a program, not a sporting event where the ending time is unknown, where the program ends before completing, asking me for the delete or not. A week ago with Jaws on UHD, right before he was about to kill the shark no less, and last night a showtime mixed martial arts program JUST as the main event was starting. LIVID!
I'm now going to treat every recordng like the Superbowl and extend it an hour unless there's a remedy for this I am unaware of. Do tell, and thanks to all.:)

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#2 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 04:29 PM

That has to do with how things are "stated" in the guide.

There are a lot of times (even on premium channels), that they state the show goes from 7pm - 9pm... but in fact it goes to 9:05

There is not much you can do in those cases, other then pad the ending
the HR20 is doing what it is told. The guide data states the show starts at X and ends at Y
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#3 OFFLINE   Patsrockon

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 04:38 PM

Thanks Earl, glad it's not a glitch. It must be a coincidence that these have both been very recent, but I guess the other side of the coin is that if it was a true glitch it would happen a lot more often.

#4 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 04:43 PM

Yeah tell me about this. Last night the Bush Dash stopped as the leader crossed the finish line with ONE LAP to go.... "Keep or delete?".
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#5 OFFLINE   Patsrockon

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 02:27 AM

Imagine having that party.......? Extend everything but the shopping network an extra hour. :rolleyes:

#6 OFFLINE   sigma1914

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 06:45 AM

One of my very few issues here, been very lucky with three of these for several months now. Recently I've had a couple of instances where a program, not a sporting event where the ending time is unknown, where the program ends before completing, asking me for the delete or not. A week ago with Jaws on UHD, right before he was about to kill the shark no less, and last night a showtime mixed martial arts program JUST as the main event was starting. LIVID!
I'm now going to treat every recordng like the Superbowl and extend it an hour unless there's a remedy for this I am unaware of. Do tell, and thanks to all.:)


FWIW, the MMA event on Showtime was Live and was scheduled to end at 11 by the guide. At 11, the main event was just starting, so it's not really the units fault.
I beleive they are reairing on Wed. night at 10 or 11.

#7 OFFLINE   Shawn07

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 07:13 AM

I have only been a new subscriber to D* for a full week now but have the HR20 also and have tried to figure out the "best" way around these issues on recording, based on what I have read here too.
Some said, dont use the padding on time cause there was a padding bug. I dont know if that is old news, or still an issue. I have tried both ways, I have used extra padding on my nascar racing stuff, with no issues thus far, and yesterday for qualifying, tried just recording the 2 shows after the racing, just to make sure I got it all. Both ways worked well for me.
I would think, if the padding bug is no longer an issue, easiest way would be to just "extend" the time on the programming? Thats kinda what I am going to do for awhile and how I set up my weekly shows to tape in HD from my OTA setup.

Guess "padding" or recording shows after, is kinda like personal preference now, kinda like Native on or off................
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#8 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:01 AM

For any "LIVE" event... or shows that could be "altered" because of live programming.... It is a good rule of thum to pad the ending.

As there is no way guide data is going to be updated, "live" to refelect any changes to that schedule.

Kinda of a DVR-101 technique, that you need to get used to when scheduling recordings.
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#9 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:18 AM

Does the HR20 deal with padding and conflicts in a way similar to the new TiVO S3 - where if your extra padding of 1 minute causes a conflict, the DVR will simply start the nex recording after the prior show with padding has finished.

With HR10s and TiVo S2, an extra minute of padding that caused a conflict in the next hour would simply cause the next show to be cancelled.

I'm aware of how the HR20 deals with things if the back-to-back recordings are on the same channel, but I'm referring to when the shows are on different channels.

To be clear hears an example:

Rec 1 - NBC - 8-9pm
Rec 2 - ABC - 8-9:01pm (1 extra minute padding)
Rec 3 - Fox - 9-10pm
Rec 4- CBS - 9-10pm

Will Recording #4 get cancelled?

#10 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:28 AM

In your scenerio... Recording #4 would be canceled.

In the R15 they did have a feature, where it would start recording #4... but as a partial. (and a lot of people complained about that) I have not seen it on the HR20.

One of the reasons for the complaint was this scenerio

#1 - 10:00 - 11:00 NBC
#2 - 10:00 - 10:30 ABC
#3 - 10:00 - 11:00 TLC

At 10:30 TLC would start to record the last 30 minutes... and then mark the program as recorded, and would not record a second airing of the show, even if it was available for the complete time.


So why not do that? and have it scan for the next 14 days (all the guide data that was available, and see if it is on again)...

What if it is on again in 16 days... The DVR+ recorders, will not re-record a program that is on the hard drive.... So if you don't watch that recording for a couple weeks, you would only have the partial, even though it was aired again.
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#11 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:33 AM

In your scenerio... Recording #4 would be canceled.

In the R15 they did have a feature, where it would start recording #4... but as a partial. (and a lot of people complained about that) I have not seen it on the HR20.

One of the reasons for the complaint was this scenerio

#1 - 10:00 - 11:00 NBC
#2 - 10:00 - 10:30 ABC
#3 - 10:00 - 11:00 TLC

At 10:30 TLC would start to record the last 30 minutes... and then mark the program as recorded, and would not record a second airing of the show, even if it was available for the complete time.


So why not do that? and have it scan for the next 14 days (all the guide data that was available, and see if it is on again)...

What if it is on again in 16 days... The DVR+ recorders, will not re-record a program that is on the hard drive.... So if you don't watch that recording for a couple weeks, you would only have the partial, even though it was aired again.


Seems like the simple programming work-around would be for the DVR to re-record anything that runs again when the original recording was a partial. I think this would be a nice feature added to the HR20. Without it, I'm very hesitant to add padding to shows that air anytime except the final hour of prime-time, after which I rarely have anything set to record.

#12 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:38 AM

Seems like the simple programming work-around would be for the DVR to re-record anything that runs again when the original recording was a partial. I think this would be a nice feature added to the HR20. Without it, I'm very hesitant to add padding to shows that air anytime except the final hour of prime-time, after which I rarely have anything set to record.


What do you do then if you have a conflict on the re-air?
How long do you keep looking for the next full one... or do you keep recording the partials until you get a complete one?
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#13 OFFLINE   jediphish

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 09:47 AM

What do you do then if you have a conflict on the re-air?
How long do you keep looking for the next full one... or do you keep recording the partials until you get a complete one?


Regular prioritizer logic would be utilized at all times, so if there's never another time when the partially recorded show could be recorded without conflict, it wouldn't get recorded.

Keep looking for as long as the show is in the recorded playlist, assuming the guide info for that show remains intact and could be compared against the 14 day APG, on a rolling basis until its found again, and does not pose a conflict with another show.

There may be other considerations, but I'm sure that the programmers could work it out so that it provides a benefit with minimal side-effects. Anything would be better than missing a recording completely because of a 1 minute pad, IMO.

#14 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 10:17 AM

Sorry for the extensive quotation, but I wanted to make sure things were pulled together by the time I posted this.

One of the DIRECTV design philosphies for the HR20 seems to be "help the user". For example, the remote control and HR20 flash messages onscreen, letting the user know he/she might be unaware of something they are about to do. "Slider in TV" mode and a few other examples. Some very creative, beneficial stuff for the Grandma/Grandpa user. I was impressed.

Another stated goal was "to create the best DVR experience in the industry". Several of the people I met at CES made similar statements.

Along those lines, and pulling from ancient history (my first VCR handled overlapping recordings by stopping the 1st and recording the second), my suggestion would be to add a third philosophy. In fact it should have been there all along:

"When in doubt, record; keep whatever you get (no matter how ugly); playback whatever you can." Combine this philosophy with the 1st and I suggest the following occurs out of the test case presented by Earl:

#3 records as partial, even if only 50%. upon playback, a message screen pops up telling the user that: a) it was a partial based upon preferences, B) press here to adjust those, btw, c) another copy of the show is scheduled for MM/DD/YY (within the known epoch of guide time, of course) and it will record, d) play this or wait until new recording occurrs.

Version 2 of this system might be overlap sensitive: if the partial was only a minute, it might have a bit less text in the pop up. And the ability to turn off the popups.

As for the "how long", how about as long as the partial is on the disk or the current history is reviewed? If there is logic to check for a show on disk or in history, a trivial addition to the check would be "is the historical item complete?" If not, record the new one. How long doesn't enter into the equation at all--that is already taken care of by any existing history system.

BTW, version 3 of the conflict resolution logic, presuming HR20 and HR10 are already at version 2, would take some steps to truly understand conflicts and allow a "lower priority" show take an earlier slot if that was the only one left of the lower priority show AND if there was another showing of a higher priority episode later. That would be the next evolution of conflict smarts. (Yeah, UI warnings, changes, and a setting for "never override ths show" might be necessary. But that is what makes UI design a vital part of the picture--so I hire the best as that isn't my strongpoint.)

Cheers,
Tom

In your scenerio... Recording #4 would be canceled.

In the R15 they did have a feature, where it would start recording #4... but as a partial. (and a lot of people complained about that) I have not seen it on the HR20.

One of the reasons for the complaint was this scenerio

#1 - 10:00 - 11:00 NBC
#2 - 10:00 - 10:30 ABC
#3 - 10:00 - 11:00 TLC

At 10:30 TLC would start to record the last 30 minutes... and then mark the program as recorded, and would not record a second airing of the show, even if it was available for the complete time.


So why not do that? and have it scan for the next 14 days (all the guide data that was available, and see if it is on again)...

What if it is on again in 16 days... The DVR+ recorders, will not re-record a program that is on the hard drive.... So if you don't watch that recording for a couple weeks, you would only have the partial, even though it was aired again.


Seems like the simple programming work-around would be for the DVR to re-record anything that runs again when the original recording was a partial. I think this would be a nice feature added to the HR20. Without it, I'm very hesitant to add padding to shows that air anytime except the final hour of prime-time, after which I rarely have anything set to record.


What do you do then if you have a conflict on the re-air?
How long do you keep looking for the next full one... or do you keep recording the partials until you get a complete one?


Go Packers!

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#15 OFFLINE   MartyS

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 10:19 AM

For any "LIVE" event... or shows that could be "altered" because of live programming.... It is a good rule of thum to pad the ending.

As there is no way guide data is going to be updated, "live" to refelect any changes to that schedule.

Kinda of a DVR-101 technique, that you need to get used to when scheduling recordings.


This is also true for anything that you're recording that's after a live event. I record Cold Case and Without a Trace every Sunday. I have to pad Without a Trace for an extra hour to hour and a half so that both shows record.

Now that Football season is over, I got rid of the padding.
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#16 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 10:56 AM

This is also true for anything that you're recording that's after a live event. I record Cold Case and Without a Trace every Sunday. I have to pad Without a Trace for an extra hour to hour and a half so that both shows record.

Now that Football season is over, I got rid of the padding.


BTW, a future version of a full "DVR system" would have the networks give live stop/start info in the stream so that a future DVR wouldn't have to pad...

Cheers,
Tom

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#17 OFFLINE   cygnusloop

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 11:15 AM

BTW, a future version of a full "DVR system" would have the networks give live stop/start info in the stream so that a future DVR wouldn't have to pad...

Cheers,
Tom


Yeah, but then you have to rely on the networks to get it right 100% of the time.
How well do you think *that* is going to go? ;)

#18 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 11:20 AM

Yeah, but then you have to rely on the networks to get it right 100% of the time.
How well do you think *that* is going to go? ;)


:) ok, so I'm thinking a few years into the future (decades? :( )

But users are getting better at letting networks know about problems. I've read several times on the avsforums for our local stations how they listen, adjust, and thank us.

Cheers,
Tom

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#19 OFFLINE   tryffin

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Posted 12 February 2007 - 11:38 AM

It would be easier if the HR20 just had softpadding, like UTV did (and the endpadplus script for tivo.) Starting 1min early and ending 5min late when there's not a tuner conflict is quite handy.




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