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Deinterlace problem with 1080i and non-HD channels on Samsung


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#1 OFFLINE   podder320

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:47 PM

I have a Samsung 1080p DLP TV (model HL-S6187W) and the 622 receiver. Using either HDMI or component, I see something bad on non-HD channels.

The problem is this: non-HD satellite channels are deinterlaced wrong. The even/odd lines are inverted, displayed as odd/even. It happens everywhere, on every non-HD channel, and it is obvious with non-moving high-contrast curved shapes, like the Comedy Central logo in the corner of the screen.

When displaying HD channels with the 622 putting out 1080i, everything is fine. When I set the receiver to 720p mode, or 480p or 480i and show a non-HD channel, there is no problem. The problem only happens on non-HD channels when the receiver is set to 1080i - and it happens on all of them, all the time. I'm not zooming or stretching anything with the 622 or the TV.

I don't want to consign myself to 720p when some channels are in 1080. Toggling the receiver between 720p and 1080i is too much trouble and not spouse-acceptable.

It's very hard to describe this to support in a way that's helpful. If somebody can tell me how to reach the right people at E* that would be great.

Does anybody else see this same problem? Or, more important, does anybody NOT see it on a 1080p TV? That would give me hope that a receiver swap or software update could cure it.

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#2 OFFLINE   Jnel

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:00 AM

I have the same TV with the 622 (HDMI), and no problems with SD or HD displaying 1080i or 720p.

#3 OFFLINE   Andy Smith

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 09:03 AM

I have a Samsung 1080p DLP TV (model HL-S6187W) and the 622 receiver. Using either HDMI or component, I see something bad on non-HD channels.

The problem is this: non-HD satellite channels are deinterlaced wrong. The even/odd lines are inverted, displayed as odd/even. It happens everywhere, on every non-HD channel, and it is obvious with non-moving high-contrast curved shapes, like the Comedy Central logo in the corner of the screen.

You can see pictures of what I'm seeing at www (dot) bestbits (dot) org (slash) dish ... (sorry, new poster, can't post a URL).

When displaying HD channels with the 622 putting out 1080i, everything is fine. When I set the receiver to 720p mode, or 480p or 480i and show a non-HD channel, there is no problem. The problem only happens on non-HD channels when the receiver is set to 1080i - and it happens on all of them, all the time. I'm not zooming or stretching anything with the 622 or the TV.

I don't want to consign myself to 720p when some channels are in 1080. Toggling the receiver between 720p and 1080i is too much trouble and not spouse-acceptable.

It's very hard to describe this to support in a way that's helpful. If somebody can tell me how to reach the right people at E* that would be great.

Does anybody else see this same problem? Or, more important, does anybody NOT see it on a 1080p TV? That would give me hope that a receiver swap or software update could cure it.


HLS6188W here and no problems in 720p or 1080i.

#4 OFFLINE   podder320

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Posted 05 March 2007 - 08:44 PM

As a followup on the original problem, I tried the same 622 at Circuit City on a Sony HDTV using some recorded content I had, and the sales guy and I saw exactly the same behavior on that TV and he agreed it's wrong. Either there is something wrong with my particular receiver, or wrong with many 622's near my software level, or (unlikely) a TV problem that's common to both Samsung and Sony.

I'm attaching the "bad" Comedy Central image to this message - we'll see if the forum lets me post it. If a close look at your Comedy Central logo shows smooth curves without noticeable horizontal banding, you don't have this problem. To review: the TV is native 1080p; the same thing happens on HDMI or component; those bands appear only for non-HD channels; and they disappear when I set the 622 to 720p or 480p or 480i.

Attached Thumbnails

  • dishne1.jpg


#5 OFFLINE   renpar61

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:18 AM

I have a JVC HD-P61R1U 1080p TV and I see the same exact problem. I always thought it was the TV and posted on AVS forum in the specific TV model thread. No answers, I was contemplating calling JVC service. If this happens on other sets, it may very well be the 622, not the TV.

#6 OFFLINE   DP1

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 07:58 AM

Thats weird.

I know it's not the same thing but it reminds of the old 6000 HD receiver.

When you had it set to 1080i output but were viewing a 720p channel, many people initially complained that there was weird "jaggies" in the image where the picture wasnt "lined up" correctly. But that reciever had a picture centering option and all it took to was a one time couple adjustment clicks one way or the other which lined everything back up and cured the problem.

#7 OFFLINE   podder320

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:47 PM

I have a JVC HD-P61R1U 1080p TV and I see the same exact problem. ... If this happens on other sets, it may very well be the 622, not the TV.


Thanks for the confirmation. It definitely happens on other sets: both my Samsung and a Sony at Circuit City, and only on 1080i output of a non-HD channel.

My next move is to take my 622 down to the place where the local service people come from and have them look at the image (hope they have an HDTV) and try other 622s to see if they look the same.

Whether it is in all 622s or just a fraction, it's a major software bug and could account for a lot of the "SD channels look bad" complaints from users. You need a big TV and sharp eyes to distinguish this problem from general "bad picture quality" complaints, and you need persistence to get past the usual explanations like "All SD looks bad on HD" and "1080i is interlaced so that's what you get." E* needs to see that this is real, distinct from other SD/HD problems, and fixable.

#8 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 12:54 PM

Very interesting Podder... Are you seeing this an all SD channels or just some in particular. I am sure some people will take a closer look and see if they see the same thing.
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#9 OFFLINE   podder320

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 05:10 PM

Very interesting Podder... Are you seeing this an all SD channels or just some in particular.


All SD channels. It's more obvious with certain types of content, but once you know what to look for you can see it's the same on all SD channels.

It is possible that this accounts for a proportion of "Poor SD quality" complaints coming from they'people with 1080-size displays. If setting the 622 to 720p instead of 1080i actually *improves* the sharpness of text on CNN or smooths out the curves in the Comedy Central logo, you're seeing this problem.

And again, I would love to hear from 1080-size TV owners who do *not* see a difference between 1080i and 720p in the smoothness of the Comedy Central logo's curves: that would give me hope that a replacement 622 could improve things. Thanks.

#10 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 05:24 PM

I don't have a 1080p TV. But I do have a 60" 1080i set that I will take a look at tonight if I can remember.
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#11 OFFLINE   DP1

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Posted 06 March 2007 - 06:20 PM

Well I have a FP throwing on to a 100" 16x9 screen that can sync to 1080i and 720p and when I look at SD channels via Component I dont notice such a thing. I just tried it by swapping between the 2 on various SD channels including CC and one of the ESPN Alt feeds that has the large stationary, circular, Dish logo. They all look basically the same in either 720p or 1080i.

So maybe it's only a factor when dealing with some 1080p circuitry.. de-interlacing/upconverting. That would explain why it's not talked about much. Comparatively, most people dont have sets capable of 1080p. Upconverting to it or accepting it natively from whatever sources.

#12 OFFLINE   rgriffith

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 08:34 AM

I have a 50" Samsung 1080P DLP (Model HL-S5087) and I do not see any significant difference between the Comedy Central logo or anything else on the screen whether I switch to 1080i, 720p, or 480p. It looks pretty jagged no matter what.

I haven't seen different HD/SD comparisons (using D* or cable) to know if this is an E* problem or just the "SD channels look bad" problem you mention above. I'm an HD newbie, so I had always just assumed changing a 480 line resolution to 1080 would necessarily lead to poor resolution. Like zooming a jpg image on the computer to 200% size.

If I could get a better picture by using the 720p resolution mode, and my 622 was working fine otherwise, I'd be reluctant to swap in a new one hoping for better. Switching to 1080i for the occasional (?) HD event that looks better in that mode is a hassle, but a rather minor one IMHO. Just a few clicks of the remote.

#13 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:44 PM

Podder - please post a picture of the Comedy Central icon with your 622 set to 720p so that I can directly see the difference you're seeing.
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#14 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 03:51 PM

Try here Mark http://www.bestbits.org/dish. Podder provided the link and I removed it since a poster indicated it my be suspect. I went there after podder replied and it seems fine.
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#15 OFFLINE   Mark Lamutt

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 04:10 PM

Hmmm...
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#16 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 04:54 PM

that might not be a deinterlace problem at all. It might be a field-rate conversion problem. Like you set the box to 1080i and it sends the frames like 1a 1b 2a 2b etc. at 60 Hz and your TV is doing a conversion to 24fps "1080p" and ends up de-interlacing it wrong.

It looks a lot like the example of the 3:2 pull-down issue on this page:

http://www.gnss.com/..._overview.phtml

#17 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 05:02 PM

While it is ugly, I don't think this is symptomatic of a problem. That's just what happens when a 1080p trys to display a 320x240 TV image.

You might check to see what happens if you turn all of the noise correction and picture enhancement functions the other way.

#18 OFFLINE   podder320

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Posted 07 March 2007 - 07:26 PM

that might not be a deinterlace problem at all. It might be a field-rate conversion problem. Like you set the box to 1080i and it sends the frames like 1a 1b 2a 2b etc. at 60 Hz and your TV is doing a conversion to 24fps "1080p" and ends up de-interlacing it wrong.

It looks a lot like the example of the 3:2 pull-down issue on this page:

http://www.gnss.com/..._overview.phtml


Thanks for the analysis, but I can't agree. Field conversion and frame-rate/pulldown problems like that show up in moving images, because the interlaced lines are offset both in space and in time. For an unmoving part of the image like the Comedy Central logo overlay, those effects don't cause any horizontal banding artifacts.

At 1080i, the 622 is putting out 1a 2a 3a 4a followed by 1b 2b 3b 4b, and the TV needs to reassemble these into 1a 1b 2a 2b 3a 3b 4a 4b. (You can also think of this as putting out lines 1-3-5-7 followed by 2-4-6-8.) My TV does the reassembly perfectly well when viewing an HD channel from the 622, so I don't think it's a problem with the TV processing the 1080i signal into its native 1080p display resolution.

Also: an interlacing artifact at 1080i would show up at about 36 lines per inch on my display, which is 30" high. But the horizontal artifacts in the Comedy Cental logo are much closer to the 480 resolution of 16 lines per inch (total 32 lines for the 2" captured in my picture). This indicates that the problem lies in the 622's upconversion from the SD MPEG data to the 1080-size image buffer, not in the transmission of that image buffer (at 1080i) to my TV, or my TV's decoding of the 1080i fields to 1080p frames. (Overscan makes these numbers approximate, but within 5% or so.)

I'm attaching two new pictures to this message, showing part of a bicycle tire from an American Express ad. This crop is about 2" high on the screen, as before. The "bad" one is with the 622 set at 1080i; the "good" one is at 720p. As with the Comedy Central logo, I believe the one at 1080i has all the same data, but the original 480 scan lines were put into the image buffer in the wrong order. If you swapped each pair of lines I think the image would reassemble perfectly.

Attached Thumbnails

  • tire1080i.jpg
  • tire720p.jpg


#19 OFFLINE   caseystone

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 12:08 AM

Sorry to report that I have this also.

I have a Samsung HLS 1080p set and it exhibits this issue just like you posted (I did not actually check to see if it looks better on 720p though). I'm not sure if it has always been this way or if perhaps a SW update caused it.

I do recall noticing a 'line-y' appearance one day on Comedy Central (one of the few non-HD channels I watch)... I'm glad you pointed it out and have documented it.

I have the signal multed on component to another display.. I'll check that one and get back to you.

-Casey

#20 OFFLINE   lujan

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Posted 08 March 2007 - 07:56 AM

... The "bad" one is with the 622 set at 1080i; the "good" one is at 720p. ...


There's a good one?:rolleyes:
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