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Whats NOT in 4.01


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89 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   mr1213

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:07 PM

DishComm is working for me!


Pardon my ignorance. What does Dishcomm do?

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#42 OFFLINE   Ron Barry

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:25 PM

Pardon my ignorance. What does Dishcomm do?


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#43 OFFLINE   Larry Caldwell

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:47 PM

Can I get an explanation on "Native Pass Through", please.

-Funk


That puzzles me too. Maybe it means matching the output to the program source? Some programming originates as 480i, some as 720p, some as 1080i. Maybe they want the output of the 622 to switch resolutions depending on source?

#44 OFFLINE   tomcrown1

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 12:48 PM

That puzzles me too. Maybe it means matching the output to the program source? Some programming originates as 480i, some as 720p, some as 1080i. Maybe they want the output of the 622 to switch resolutions depending on source?


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#45 OFFLINE   ChuckA

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 01:18 PM

That puzzles me too. Maybe it means matching the output to the program source? Some programming originates as 480i, some as 720p, some as 1080i. Maybe they want the output of the 622 to switch resolutions depending on source?


Or, more accurately, to allow the 622 to pass the signal thru to the TV or DVDR without doing any conversion of the content so the conversion is done only by the output device.
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#46 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 02:58 PM

you mean of course, no conversion other than the conversion that Dish does to whatever non-ATSC-standard format that comes in on the MPEG-2/4 sream?

I think some kind of conversion to a format compliant with your TV's input is necessary. I'll vote for minimal changing of the signal, or give me a button on the remote to do it myself. Having to get to it through the menus is a PITA.

On my Oppo DV-981HD DVD player you can press a button on the remote and cycle through all of the output modes and pick the one that looks best on the fly. That would be a nice feature on the 622. You can do the same thing with a HR20 (D*).
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#47 OFFLINE   Radner

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 06:01 PM

Don't forget the sticky buffers. For those of us who learned to watch on the TIVO, this is a much appreciated feature.

My HDMI port hasn't worked since the first month that I have had my 622, so I don't know about the 5.1 support.

I would appreciate that external storage support. Although I use my pocketdish right now to offload stuff. But, I can't put anything back onto the 622. I have to watch it straight out of the pocketdish...and no HD in the pocketdish.


My HDMI port crapped out after the first month also. I called DISH and they wanted me to jump through a bunch of bells and whistle before they would do anything about it. I said forget it... and than the component video ports stopped working. I called DISH and complained and mentioned about the numerous complaints on the HDMI port not working on the 622 from DBSTalk.com and they sent out a replacement that is working great. I sent the bad receiver back in the box they sent the replacement unit with a prepaid UPS label.

Give them a call, it's worth it.

#48 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 07:46 PM

you mean of course, no conversion other than the conversion that Dish does to whatever non-ATSC-standard format that comes in on the MPEG-2/4 sream?

Exactly. That is what I see as the problem with "pass through" ... the signal goes through bandwidth saving steps between the source and your receiver.

The "pass through" would simply be outputting the signal in the ATSC resolution closest to the source instead of in one chosen resolution. The receiver would still handle scaling the output to 480i, 720p or 1080i (depending on what the source was). Then the TV would rescale the picture for display.

It doesn't sound like such a good idea when one puts it that way ... rescaling.
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#49 OFFLINE   Teran

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 08:15 PM

...Then the TV would rescale the picture for display.


As a CRT front projection user I really miss pass-through since there is no scaling done.

#50 OFFLINE   kruser

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 08:21 PM

It sure is. I've hooked it up to a Denon 4806 and a Lexicon MC12HD and it works perfectly on both. Unfortunately, my second 622 didn't get 4.01 and when I switched it out, the HDMI didn't work. I'll run the HDMI reset when it does get the upgrade and if that doesn't fix it, I'll swap it out.

HD RSN's would not be in a software release. It is programming.

External Hard Drive support is reported to be coming later (maybe this summer).

Scott


How do you do a "HDMI Reset"?

thanks!

#51 OFFLINE   lakebum431

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Posted 26 March 2007 - 08:33 PM

How do you do a "HDMI Reset"?

thanks!


Menu 6, 3, Analysis, HDMI Test, Reset HDMI

#52 OFFLINE   langlin

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:39 AM

Remote capability has been mentioned. I think it was mentioned in the last Tech Chat, but I would consider them mutually exclusive. If I recall, I could be remembering wrong, they were mentioned at different times.

Either way.. Neither was was ever indicated to be in this release.


I agree it was not to be part of this release.

Actually Dish does "have" this capability with partners AT&T and Yahoo in select AT&T markets called "AT&T Homezone with AT&T/Dish Network Service"

http://www.att.com/g...eneral?pid=7910
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#53 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 08:48 AM

As a CRT front projection user I really miss pass-through since there is no scaling done.


Not really.

It all depends on the format that's coming into the TV. The TV requires a certain format (sync rate, number of scan lines, etc.), even if you are using component video input, in order to be able to display the picture correctly. It's even worse for HDMI. So the 622 or whatever box has to provide the TV with some reasonably-standard format picture. It would be foolish to do anything but regular ATSC-compliant HD formats that are in common use.

The problem is that many channels are likely NOT sent to the 622 in one of these ATSC-compliant HD formats.

Let's just talk about maybe IFC which is horrid looking on Dish. This is a signal that comes from the content provider (IFC) as a regular 480i signal, 640x480 pixels @ 30 Hz. Dish Network resamples that obviously at something more like 320x240 pixels @ 8 frames per second in order to cut the bandwidth requirement by a huge amount. So "native pass thru" would do what? Pass this incompatible format to the TV? My TV would not display it. Instead the 622 needs to reconstruct this into an ATSC-compliant signal, in this case the closest match would be 480i. Then your TV can display it.

I think it would just be easier to put a 1080i/720p "mode" button on the remote and allow it to switch while you are watching a channel. Otherwise they are going to have to just program the thing to switch to 480i on SD channels, and on HD channels try and detect whether it is a progressive-scan source or interlaced and either switch to 1080i or 720p but in either case it will be scaled because even 720p or 1080i original content will be changed to something other than the original format for transport between Dish's sat transmitter and the 622, and you need the 622 to convert it yet again so you can see it.

I don't think "native pass thru" is a great idea and in fact it is one major cause of pain on the D* HD-DVR. But I do think a button on the remote to switch from 720p to 1080i is a great idea.
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#54 OFFLINE   PhantomOG

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 09:02 AM

I don't think "native pass thru" is a great idea ...



The reason I would like a native pass-thru option is because of the quirky nature of my TV. I have an old 4x3 CRT HDTV. It accepts and displays a 1080i picture in a widescreen format. This means the scan lines are compressed into the 16x9 region on my screen. Unfortunately, this widescreen compression happens automatically (with no user override option) with ANY signal present above 480i/p. This means my HD channels are displayed fine and with the correct aspect ration, however, my SD channels are also compressed vertically. This forces me to use the S-video connection for SD and the component for HD and 2 different inputs on my TV.

If the 622 output the SD channels in their native resolution, I wouldn't have to use a separate connection/input on my TV. Every time I switch between an HD channel and an SD channel or vice versa, I must also select a different input on my TV. Quite annoying.

I know, I know, buy a new TV!!! :sure:

#55 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 09:09 AM

what you are asking for is not native pass thru. you are asking for the box to switch to 480i when viewing a SD channel.

I don't think that's a bad idea at all. But it's not native pass-thru.

Maybe my mode button on the remote would cycle from 480i->480p->720p->1080i.
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#56 OFFLINE   PhantomOG

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 09:36 AM

what you are asking for is not native pass thru. you are asking for the box to switch to 480i when viewing a SD channel.


Ok, you're right. I want my HD channels in HD resolution (1080i/720p), and my SD channels in SD resolution (480i/p) WITHOUT having to make/press any selections/buttons etc. That would make me very happy! :P

#57 OFFLINE   Larry Caldwell

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 10:22 AM

Let's just talk about maybe IFC which is horrid looking on Dish. This is a signal that comes from the content provider (IFC) as a regular 480i signal, 640x480 pixels @ 30 Hz. Dish Network resamples that obviously at something more like 320x240 pixels @ 8 frames per second in order to cut the bandwidth requirement by a huge amount. So "native pass thru" would do what? Pass this incompatible format to the TV? My TV would not display it. Instead the 622 needs to reconstruct this into an ATSC-compliant signal, in this case the closest match would be 480i. Then your TV can display it.


That's not at all how MPEG compression works. First, and unrelated to the compression, NTSC resolution (480i) is 640 x 240 at 30 hz. The picture is interlaced and scans every other line in alternation, so the signal ends up 640 x 480 at 60 hz. Only half of the picture is drawn with each scan. NTSC displays 60 frames per second, but half of each frame is the same as the preceding frame.

MPEG of any variety is a lossy compression scheme, saving bandwidth by discarding data. To compensate for this, the receiver buffer holds the last frame, current frame and next frame, and can use adjacent frames to reconstruct the current frame. This allows the encoder to discard any pixel that doesn't change, and only transmit the pixels that change. This allows the amount of data in each frame to vary widely. An entirely new frame requires a lot of data, a static picture requires very little.

Sometimes the encoder guesses wrong and discards data that can't be reconstructed by the receiver, or perhaps the information never existed in the first place. A smart receiver can do a great job of compensating for this, like the Faroudja chip that de-interlaces DVDs and puts out an HD signal. You are seeing data that was never on the DVD, re-created by some very clever circuitry and programming. The 622 does a creditable job of de-interlacing SD programming, but the success depends on the source. "It's really hard to polish a ..."

The new MPEG-4 compression scheme uses a lot more CPU horsepower to handle the data. I haven't read up on all the tricks it uses, but in addition to better data compression I suspect it does things like use pattern recognition to just reposition pixels during a pan. When Dish rolled out the new MPEG-4 HD channels, they were actually still encoded in MPEG-2 with an MPEG-4 header. The new encoders were not ready yet. I haven't heard if Dish has started to use MPEG-4 or not, but judging from the amount of pixellation I see on HD channels, I would guess not.

If Dish only transmitted one channel, the variation in data rate would not be an advantage, but Dish multiplexes several channels onto each transponder. Half a dozen channels will fit on a single transponder, when any single channel may at times require almost half the bandwidth of that transponder. When the data rate exceeds the available bandwidth, you get pixellation.

I haven't paid much attention to the picture quality on IFC lately. I have been a little short on time for movie watching. I have never noticed that IFC had a bad picture, and I have a very large screen. Picture quality seems to depend as much on the source as anything. If IFC is broadcasting poorly mastered DVDs, there isn't much that Dish can do about it. Sometimes there is even a variation on the same DVD. I have the Babylon-5 collection. The videotape portions are mediocre quality, but when the CGI portions come on screen they really pop! Blame the source.

You can use your 622 to estimate the data rate of the programming you record. The recording time left is based on an average. Some HD programming uses an hour of HD recording time, some uses as little as 40 minutes. That doesn't mean that one picture is only 2/3 as good as the other. Different types of programming place different demands on the system.

#58 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 10:30 AM

the overly technical description of MPEG doesn't have anything to do with the issue of native pass-thru.

and if you can't see what's wrong with IFC, you need to see an optometrist ASAP.
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#59 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 10:43 AM

the overly technical description of MPEG doesn't have anything to do with the issue of native pass-thru.

The core thought that should be taken away from this discussion is this:

Your TV is not designed to handle the signal that E* and D* are transmitting over satellite. In order to display that signal on your TV the receiver must convert it into a standard your receiver understands. That is a conversion, not pass through.

Even when something called "native pass through" is available it won't be a direct pass through from source to TV. All that MPEG stuff is in the way, like it or not.
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#60 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 27 March 2007 - 12:25 PM

Exactly. Thanks for making it very clear, James. I think even using the term "native pass-thru" kind of misleads people into thinking it is doing something it is not.
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