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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Whats NOT in 4.01


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89 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 09:07 AM

:welcome_s

I understand that Dish cheats and doesn't transmit a full resolution stream for their HD content. That is another discussion as is whether you think it is cheating to not transmit a full bandwidth stream.

Be careful not to mix the terms (resolution and bandwidth). Some form of compression is required ... E* uses formats that the ATSC allows for satellite. (The schemes D* has chosen pass even less resolution and are used on more of their channels.)
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

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#82 OFFLINE   Larry Caldwell

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Posted 28 March 2007 - 10:57 AM

It's basically the same, which means it's OK for the most part. The bug I refer to has to do with how you set your CC to be displayed using the various options in the CC menu, most notably the "opacity" settings. When you set the background to transparent it creates problems with the CC lettering. It becomes broken up as if it doesn't know weather to display itself in the solid, translucent or transparent mode. The "foreground opacity" setting is not working at all. Changes made in the menu have no affect on the lettering. This leads me to believe that this may be part of the problem. I've had my 622 since June 2006. It has always been like this. These options worked great on my 921. If you want I could send you a couple of video clips to show you exactly what I'm referring to. Email me and I'll reply with the clips attached.


Was there any change to the HD channels that don't have CC at all?

#83 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 01:40 PM

so ... I wonder if a macro programmed on a my cinema 7 would allow me to switch resolutions on the fly? I'll have to give it a try.
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#84 OFFLINE   PhantomOG

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 01:52 PM

so ... I wonder if a macro programmed on a my cinema 7 would allow me to switch resolutions on the fly? I'll have to give it a try.


I imagine you could program a macro, but even a one button macro, going into the system setup menu to change the resolution is hardly what I would call "on the fly". :)

#85 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 29 March 2007 - 01:59 PM

well, not as "on the fly" as a sleeker solution but if it works ... however i think it might not work unless the down-arrow button will cycle back to the top of the pop-up list. i'll have to see when i get home.
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#86 OFFLINE   deadrody

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 12:02 PM

Pass through is, indeed, something any "videophile" should care about. Let me explain...

NBC broadcasts their shows in pristine 1080i - a full 1920 x 1080 interlaced picture. In an ideal world, every single pixel in that 1920 x 1080 picture would be transmitted from NBC to Dish Network to your VIP622 and then to your HDTV display device. Due to the massive bandwidth that kind of signal would require, it cannot be done.

Enter digital compression. Now I don't know if Dish Network is guilty of this, though I have never seen them accused, but their competitor, DirecTV, allegedly starts by shaving the 1920 x 1080 picture down to a more manageable 1280 x 1080 picture. Either way, Dish Network takes their picture and applies digital compression. At the moment, they are still using MPEG-2 compression, but the new VIP622 does support moving to MPEG-4. Anyhow, once the signal is sufficiently reduced through compression, it goes from there to the satellites down to your receiver, where it is DE-compressed back to it's original format - in this case 1080i, or 1920 x 1080 interlaced. I do not believe there is any hardware or software that can perform both a decompression and conversion at the same time.

So, now you have a decompressed 1920 x 1080 interlaced picture (1080i). If your receiver is set to 720p, the receiver then performs a conversion that changes the picture from interlaced 1920 x 1080 to progressive 1280 x 720. However, if your TV is a 1080i set, it will automatically convert the incoming picture to 1920 x 1080 interlaced. The goal is always to limit the # of conversions and to force the best hardware to perform those conversions. The VIP622 might be that hardware for some, but not for others, and if you have a 1080p set, it is already performing a conversion of both 720p and 1080i inputs, so the ideal situation is to have the 622 output the original format for the TV to perform a single conversion to 1080p.

The basic point is that the MPEG compression does not fundamentally alter the structure of the picture, it just uses a variety of algorithms to reduce the raw data needed to transmit that information from point a to point b. Once the receiver decompresses the stream, it is essentially back to the same raw data, though due to the compression, some pixels may be somewhat different.

So, the fact that what is flying through the air from the satellite to your receiver isn't in a standard format is a moot point.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but I just wanted to clear up any misconceptions about the difference betwee format conversion and video compression.

PS - Right now I am a Comcast customer, but have decided to move to Dish Network so I can get all the multi-channel audio / HD goodness Dish offers. More HD programming at a lower cost - BONUS!!! And the industry leading HD-DVR STB with OTA HD support. FYI - the SA 8300HD set top boxes already support pass through as a standard feature.

#87 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 01:25 PM

I have a question.

Do you have any evidence that in fact, a broadcast that originated in 1080i (1920x1080 pixels) will be converted back to its original format before being sent out of the 622 in 720p mode?

I don't know the answer and it's not a rhetorical question.

I do think that detecting and switching 1080i and 720p signals automatically would be an excellent feature for the 622. But given the track record of quality of Dish Network software, I think this might be more for them to bite off than they can chew. Either way I think many of the wanna-be videophiles on this forum might have the expectation that some of the compression artifacts are going to be fixed by native pass-thru, that it's some kind of magic cure.
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#88 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 02:03 PM

BTW: E* recently moved the LA HD LILs to MPEG4 ... the only LIL HDs remaining in MPEG2 are the NY City LILs (the other markets have been MPEG4 since their beginning).
Welcome to DBS Talk - Let's talk about DBS! (The Digital Bit Stream)
DISH Network vs DirecTV: HD Channel List - DISH Network HD Capacity, HD Conversion and more.
DISH Network complete channel lists and lists by satellite location are in The Uplink Activity Center.
Unless otherwise noted, I speak for myself. Content is not controlled by DISH Network, DirecTV or any other company.

#89 OFFLINE   PhantomOG

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 11:08 AM

I do think that detecting and switching 1080i and 720p signals automatically would be an excellent feature for the 622. But given the track record of quality of Dish Network software, I think this might be more for them to bite off than they can chew. Either way I think many of the wanna-be videophiles on this forum might have the expectation that some of the compression artifacts are going to be fixed by native pass-thru, that it's some kind of magic cure.


I just want the option of setting the resolution on HD channels separately from SD channels. 1080i for HD, and 480i/p for SD would satisfy me completely. Considering the 622 is aware of, and already has settings stored separately for HD and SD channels (the stretch format), I don't think this would be "more than they can chew". All this native passthrough/compression/1080i vs 720p talk just clouds the main issue for me! :D

And I don't think this will fix anything other than me needing to use 2 separate connections to my TV.

#90 OFFLINE   Gilly

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Posted 05 April 2007 - 03:30 PM

Yeah the HR20 also has the "Format" button which allows the user to switch, on the fly, between different resolutions. That would be a step in the right direction on the 622, even if it didn't have full-on "Native" mode.

The 622 remote does have a format button on the lower left corner (I think that's where it is, I don't have the remote with me), when the remote is in SAT mode. That switches you to the different resolutions.

Edit: My bad...that's the zoom formats...sorry.




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