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Guest Message by DevFuse

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why does my vip 622 pixelate?


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22 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   ragman757

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 02:42 PM

i cant expalin what i mean but like compresion pixelation is what it looks to me.i have a 622 on a olevia 437 lcd tv via hdmi. i notice it mostly on hd chanels

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#2 OFFLINE   ragman757

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 02:43 PM

ps i notice it more on fast motion

#3 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 02:45 PM

welcome to HDTV

aka "high definition except fast motion"
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#4 OFFLINE   ragman757

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 03:02 PM

that sucks will it ever be for fast action to im a football fan guess it will suck this year

#5 OFFLINE   rice0209

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 03:33 PM

Pixelation and fast action HD are not synonymous. There are many variables that go into it, but i have watched many, many HD programs that are fast action and do not have issues.

Some of those variables are the quality of feed. In my area, Kansas City, Fox has an excellent quality signal where as CBS had a horrible feed all tournament.

Discovery HD is by far the best in terms of quality. I rarely see pixelation of any kind, unless weather related and it is by far the cleanest and clearest HD feed I have seen on Dish.

My local NBC channels do not seem to have the correct equipment for broadcasting or rebroadcasting their High def signal as I constantly get pixelation and terrible SD/HD changeovers during commercial breaks. My sister, who also lives in KC has the exact same problems with her 622.

#6 OFFLINE   rice0209

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 03:34 PM

Ragman,

What mode do you have your television set to? 480P, 720P, 1080i?

#7 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 03:50 PM

I have yet to see a HD program that does not do this with fast action. You pretty much notice it only on sports. I think maybe the live broadcast nature of the sports programs makes it tough (has to be encoded on the fly).

What on Discovery HD would have fast action, like a basketball game would?
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#8 OFFLINE   ragman757

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 04:11 PM

i have a tv its native resoltion is 768 p. so i set the vip 622 to 720 p .but i think i tryied 1080i to. also i never got that software update to 401 but i assume i wont get it then

#9 OFFLINE   whatchel1

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 07:41 PM

Pixelation and fast action HD are not synonymous. There are many variables that go into it, but i have watched many, many HD programs that are fast action and do not have issues.

Some of those variables are the quality of feed. In my area, Kansas City, Fox has an excellent quality signal where as CBS had a horrible feed all tournament.

Discovery HD is by far the best in terms of quality. I rarely see pixelation of any kind, unless weather related and it is by far the cleanest and clearest HD feed I have seen on Dish.

My local NBC channels do not seem to have the correct equipment for broadcasting or rebroadcasting their High def signal as I constantly get pixelation and terrible SD/HD changeovers during commercial breaks. My sister, who also lives in KC has the exact same problems with her 622.

I get the same problem w/ the KC NBC that you do. I have emailed the news dept of the station. Reason for email to news dept is that the is no email address for both the engineering dept or the GM of the station. So I'm damn near going to spam them until the news dept tells the engs about my emails. I getting really tired of the pixelation for several minutes at a time. BTW my system is 1080i w/ a Panny 32" HD CRT. The setting of the monitor 720 or 1080 has nothing to do w/ the problem here. I have seen the problem with a talking head on the nightly news.

#10 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 02 April 2007 - 08:58 PM

the setting of the monitor does not affect the broadcast stream. If it's pixelated, it's likely that way in the source material (that is, the data stream before it gets into your antenna) and not caused by your receiver or TV.

I think the reason it's such a problem with sports is that they have to encode it live, on the fly. While with a movie or another program, it may be encoded to MPEG-2 with a slower, less lossy procedure that cannot be done in real time.
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#11 OFFLINE   johnsbin

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 07:44 AM

Digital displays are susceptible to motion blur. The more expensive digital displays are able to make some compensation for this problem but the low cost panels will display this problem the most.

Then if you add signal compression on top of this and you are bound to see some digital artifacts in your picture, to include pixelation and motion blur.
ViP622, Optoma HD70, 90" screen

#12 OFFLINE   rice0209

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:20 AM

Discovery HD runs all sorts of programming with fast action. I have watched all sorts of auto racing documentaries as well as other types of programs. The blue Angels documentary also comes to mind.

I also have watched baseball on my local fox channel and not noticed any pixelation of the image. To me, this has more to do with which channel is doing the broadcast and processing of the signal.

My question relating to his display was whether he was in 1080i or 720p. Some people commonly associate pixelation with the ghosting or blurring of images created by using an interlaced signal. As Johnsbin said, more expensive TV's have beeter processing of the signal and can overcome this, but more inexpensive units have difficulties translating the image correctly into the digital panel.

I run the 622 with HDMI to my 720P Hitachi projector which is a 3 LCD unit. I occasionally get pixelation, but it happens on fast or slow action shows. I think the general statement of "welcome to HDTV aka "high definition except fast motion" is completely false and you were misleading Ragman to believe that he will never get a good quality picture from his new hd set.

Besides, many have had problems with pixelation on the 622. Pixelation can occur from a loss of data in the satellite transmission or pre and post processing in the studios, production semis, or even in the 622 or your monitor. There is a lot of processing going on and any one of these steps could be the culprit.

#13 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 08:28 AM

alright nevermind. if you have pixelation, you must have junk equipment, you're watching the wrong channel, it's in your head.

I'm sure I must be imagining things that every single HD basketball game I have ever seen that is not on ESPN is heavily pixelated on fast motion. Since that's like 95% of what I watch in HD, it's not really surprising that this is where I see it most. Maybe I need a Monster cable somewhere to fix it. :rolleyes:
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#14 OFFLINE   johnsbin

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 10:29 AM

Pixelation and motion blur are not in your head (technically since eyesight is rendered by the brain, it IS in your head) they are real digital display artifacts and they occur for several reasons to include the signal, the signal provider, the signal reception equipment, and the display equipment. We all experience these artifacts but if you are experiencing a lot of it, there are several problems you have to eliminate.

Cheap equipment does frequently contribute to degraded signal quality, but buying Monster brand overpriced products is not the only solution!
ViP622, Optoma HD70, 90" screen

#15 OFFLINE   johnsbin

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 10:45 AM

To add an additional note here:

One source of pixelation is when a display must scale an HD signal to its native resolution. Scaling from 1080i to 720p will introduce pixelation to HD content, especially fast moving content. This is why ESPN captures and broadcasts in 720p, since the vast majority of HD displays were 720p devices. 1080i/p devices have started to make a dent in that but ESPN still runs at 720p.

This signal is encoded in mpeg2 or mpeg4, which can also introduce digital artifacts like pixelation. mpeg4 is better about that than mpeg2.

So, if you are receiving 720p mpeg4 and you run it natively to a 720p device, you stand a good chance of having a great picture! The only problem you now face is the refresh rate of your display device. Cheaper LCDs might not have a fast refresh rate and could exhibit some motion blur, otherwise known as video delay.

This explains why Mr.72 has a great picture with ESPN, not so much elsewhere running 1080i.
ViP622, Optoma HD70, 90" screen

#16 OFFLINE   rustamust

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 11:02 AM

I watched the entire final BB game last night on CBS OTA and did not have any pixilation on my Mits. 55" and its over 5 years old. 622 is one month new.

#17 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:21 PM

Which TVs are "native" 720p?

I don't know of one. LCD & Plasma are generally 1366x768 progressive and require scaling no matter what the source. Some newer ones are 1920x1080 progressive and don't require any scaling of 1080i. CRTs do not really have a native resolution like this.
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi

#18 OFFLINE   ragman757

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:42 PM

i find my diplay is not the probelm im not sure but id say no since hell i watched moviesd on old lcd monitors that had like a 32 ns refreashrate and never noticed it.id say its content

#19 OFFLINE   johnsbin

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 12:46 PM

Stretching to 1366 X 768 is not the same as scaling from 1080i.

Rustamust: What res output is your 622 set for? Is your Mits CRT RPTV? CRTs are a completely different animal.
ViP622, Optoma HD70, 90" screen

#20 OFFLINE   Mr.72

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Posted 03 April 2007 - 01:07 PM

scaling down is easy. There's nothing to make up to fill in the gaps. Scaling up is what's much more difficult.

But anyway .... motion blur is not the same thing as pixelating. The pixelating is very clear and also very clearly not the display when you can pause the recording and play it frame by frame and clearly see the macro block construction. It's obviously present in the data stream that has been recorded in the 622 whether it is from OTA or from sat input. Doesn't really matter. But this definitely rules out the display as any part of the problem.

I think most LCDs are sub-16ms response time these days (who can be sure, there are like 200 brands). That's fast enough to handle 720p60 without any artifact and over 2x the rate needed for 1080i.

I guess you are not open to consider the idea that the source encoding can be 100% of the cause of pixelation?

Anyway, to the original poster, IN MY OPINION and IN MY EXPERIENCE pixelation is a common issue that occurs in nearly every HD program with fast motion, particularly sports that are encoded on the fly in 1080i.
Sling-enabled Hopper, Joey, RokuXD, coupla HDTVs, a real old DD5.1 receiver and a 1963 Fisher tube hifi




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