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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Please fix CIR (Rant!)


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#26 OFFLINE   tucker301

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 05:43 AM

I was a Dish subscriber for 7 years before recently switching to Directv.
Since most of my experience was with their system, I'll relate how theirs worked.

They had a CIR option that seemed to work well.

If new or free preview channels were added, they were automatically added to the list in my guide. For example, if HBO had a free preview weekend, I'd automatically see HBO in my guide when the preview became active.

If I wanted record something while the preview was active, it would record.
If I set it to record after the preview was off, I'd get an error message that the program was not available.

If new channels became available, and they were part of my current subscription package, then they automatically were addded to the guide.

It was pretty simple stuff and it worked very well.

I suspect CIR is slow to be put through because it takes channels that you don't currently pay for out of sight altogether. There's a loss of marketing when that's done.
In the eyes of marketing, you can't want what you don't know about. But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!

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#27 OFFLINE   BubblePuppy

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:03 AM

But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!


Or another name for it is unwanted clutter.

Besides isn't that what the Message feature is for?
Thanks to Google search, people can appear to be smarter than they really are.

#28 OFFLINE   tucker301

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:30 AM

I didn't say I liked it.
I was merely pointing out one possible reason that it may be slow to be "fixed".

#29 OFFLINE   BubblePuppy

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 06:40 AM

Oh...I didn't mean to imply that you do like it, I'm sure there a very few of us that do.
Thanks to Google search, people can appear to be smarter than they really are.

#30 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 08:22 AM

Great food for thought,Earl.
I now can see how big a project "Channels I recieve" is considering how many different "packages" D* offers plus the various permutations of sport choices.
I think it's obvious that "search" should be based on channels recieved" and not on "favorites". Just because a channel isn't in my favorites doesn't mean I would want the show I'm searching for be ignored.
So I guess "favorites" should not be a factor in the search crieria, only "channels recieved/payed for".

If I understand what you're saying, I'm not sure I agree with you on this one. Since I have an OTA antenna (or even if I didn't), I might want to exclude a channel from being searched (one of my 3 FOX HD's, e.g.). I need a way to do that... either by limiting search to an edited CIR list, or to a Favorites list.

Now if you meant an "edited" CIR list, my bad, and I totally agree! :) /steve

#31 OFFLINE   BubblePuppy

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:01 AM

You are correct,Sir!
I wasn't even thinking about OTA. That is anoher kettle of a different fish.
Yes OTA would need to be treated different.
Good point.
Thanks to Google search, people can appear to be smarter than they really are.

#32 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:03 AM

But how do you propose, someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

Some multi-option setting for each of the several hundred channels in the DirecTV stream? (Include in Search: But not guide; Include in Guide: But not Search; Don't include anywhere, but allow me to tune it... Completely remove it from the system; Don't include in individual searches, but include for auto-tunes, ect.....)

PS: I am playing Devil's advocate here... to throw out there some of the other points that DirecTV has to consider, when building the system for several MILLION users.... they have to evaluate how EVERYONE is going to use it.
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#33 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:09 AM

But how do you propose, someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?
.

Base Search on an editable CIR list, but allow user to select whether guide is displaying All, Favorites, or CIR... like on the HR-10. Wouldn't that do it?/steve

#34 OFFLINE   oakwcj

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:14 AM

I've answered this for some others...


"Toggling" it... It is not as straight forward as you may think.
So sure, the search could be used to favorites... but now you must also consider including programming to handle if no favorites are set... What to do if there are two favorites set (which one do you use?)...




Then... the other solution... allow you to manually tweak the Channels I receive list... Well.. the system flat out is not built for that.



And the continuous quoting of the obviously seriously incorrect manual.
IMHO... they should frankly throw out the old manual, and issue a new one.

More and More of that manual was cut and paste from the R15/D10/D11/H20 manuals, rather then written for the HR20..


I understand that you don't work for D*, Earl, and that you are in no way responsible for this absence of basic functionality which is a big part of what distinguishes a DVR from a glorified VCR. But, I don't understand why you feel compelled to act as an apologist for D*'s failure to live up to the promises it makes in its manuals. I read the manual before I decided not to switch to cable. I specifically noted that the HR20 would be able to to autorecord wishlists in a manner similar to the DirecTiVo. You say that the problem has nothing to do with the HR20's code, and I believe you, but I wan't even aware of the issue when I used the DirecTiVos, because the first thing I always did was to remove the religion, shopping, and gossip channels, along with those I didn't actually receive. Is it some sort of excuse for a big corporation to cut and paste misrepresentations about the capabilities of products from one manual to another? Shouldn't the answer be to provide the capabilites rather than renege on marketing promises that people rely on in making purchasing decisions? At best, this company is guilty of incredible sloppiness in issuing product manuals. At worst, these are material misrepresentations of fact, aka false advertising.

#35 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:15 AM

Base Search on an editable CIR list, but allow user to select whether guide is displaying All, Favorites, or CIR... like on the HR-10. Wouldn't that do it?/steve


So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

On the HR10-250, when you pull something out of the Channels I Receive... it basically "removes" it from the system... all favorites, and you can not schedule recordings on it, until you put it back in.... (Basically the channel does not exist to the DVR functions... but you can key in the channel and watch it live, and use the buffer)
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#36 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:20 AM

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:

You are correct... the manual is very incorrect... never said it wasn't.
All I said, is that it needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY re-written, from page ZERO up.


I understand that you don't work for D*, Earl, and that you are in no way responsible for this absence of basic functionality which is a big part of what distinguishes a DVR from a glorified VCR. But, I don't understand why you feel compelled to act as an apologist for D*'s failure to live up to the promises it makes in its manuals. I read the manual before I decided not to switch to cable. I specifically noted that the HR20 would be able to to autorecord wishlists in a manner similar to the DirecTiVo. You say that the problem has nothing to do with the HR20's code, and I believe you, but I wan't even aware of the issue when I used the DirecTiVos, because the first thing I always did was to remove the religion, shopping, and gossip channels, along with those I didn't actually receive. Is it some sort of excuse for a big corporation to cut and paste misrepresentations about the capabilities of products from one manual to another? Shouldn't the answer be to provide the capabilites rather than renege on marketing promises that people rely on in making purchasing decisions? At best, this company is guilty of incredible sloppiness in issuing product manuals. At worst, these are material misrepresentations of fact, aka false advertising.


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#37 OFFLINE   bonscott87

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 09:25 AM

My concern with it being based on a true "channels I receive" is in cases like locals. I have 3 different versions of locals (SD, MPEG4 HD, OTA HD). In most cases I only care about the OTA HD. For one channel I use MPEG4. I could care less about the SD version.

But then I guess I shouldn't worry about it too much. I could never get autorecord wishlists to work properly for me on the Tivo due to similar issues (game on both ESPN and my RSN, I'd want my RSN to have priority for example). So I guess it really doesn't effect me one way or another.

#38 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:07 AM

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

You could call it that. No reason to see channels you don't receive or never want to see (like shopping channels, in my case). Or folks could just leave it alone, if they didn't want to edit it.

Actually, in the example you cited:

someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

If folks wanted to be able to record a channel, I don't know why they wouldn't want to also see those channels in their guide. Probably a very rare case that doesn't need to be accounted for.

Just my $.02. /steve

#39 OFFLINE   oakwcj

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 10:19 AM

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:

You are correct... the manual is very incorrect... never said it wasn't.
All I said, is that it needs to be SIGNIFICANTLY re-written, from page ZERO up.


No, fostering a discussion is terrific, but defending the indefensible isn't. I always read electronics manuals online before I make a buying decision. Rewriting the manual after the fact is Orwellian. When a company says our product can do X, I expect it to do X. Back when I taught consumer protection law, making material false representations was an important element in proving a fraud case.

I'm not going to get caught up in a technical discussion of how to implement a function that was promised to me before I bought the HR20, because I don't have access to any source code. However, the favorites data is obviously stored on the hard drive. I should be able to select which of my favorites to use in a keyword search. Why should this be such a big deal to implement?

#40 OFFLINE   DaHound

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:27 AM

[quote name='oakwcj']Amen.

I have suggested a couple of times that the problem could be greatly ameliorated ......QUOTE]

And for those who never heard of the word, www.thefreedictionary.com/ameliorated

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#41 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:31 AM

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2
(EDIT: I updated to include bonscott's corrected wording. Thank you, Scott!)

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

My Channels defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the My Channels no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to My Channels. Click it off if you want. So you don't miss an HBO freeview. At the end of the weekend, the HBO channels come right back out.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.c...rGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?

- Craig

#42 OFFLINE   DaHound

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:50 AM

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedi...om/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling
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#43 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:51 AM

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

On the HR10-250, when you pull something out of the Channels I Receive... it basically "removes" it from the system... all favorites, and you can not schedule recordings on it, until you put it back in.... (Basically the channel does not exist to the DVR functions... but you can key in the channel and watch it live, and use the buffer)


This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!

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#44 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:57 AM

I suspect CIR is slow to be put through because it takes channels that you don't currently pay for out of sight altogether. There's a loss of marketing when that's done.
In the eyes of marketing, you can't want what you don't know about. But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!


This doesn't hold up because like most people, I edit my favorites list, and get rid of all the channels I don't get or want. So when I bring up the guide, I have no idea what is on Logo that I might be missing. I never see what movie HBO HD has to offer. It only shows up when I schedule a autorecord, and get something I don't have access to, resulting is a black screen, and enough anger that I would never even consider ADDING channels to my package when I get a partially functional DVR right now. Why pay more for more channels I can't reliably record?

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#45 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:58 AM

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
+ All Channels
+ Channels I Receive
+ Custom 1
+ Custom 2

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

Channels I Receive defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the Channels I Receive no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to the Channels I Receive. Click it off if you want.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.c...rGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?

Works for me. /steve

#46 OFFLINE   oakwcj

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:12 PM

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedi...om/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling


Don't start making fun of the Phlegmish. You wouldn't want to have them spitting that stuff on you.

Actually, D*'s approach to this problem has been phlegmatic in the extreme. One might even say flaccid. We need less phlegm and more phlair.

#47 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:27 PM

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:


There's nothing wrong with being an apologist :).

That being said, my personal opinion is that you are more a pragmatist than an apologist. I'm on board with that myself.

pragmatist
–noun
1. a person who is oriented toward the success or failure of a particular line of action, thought, etc.; a practical person.


It's not so much that DirecTV is right or wrong .. It's more that we all have a discussion that results in the right answer. I believe that Earl is trying to look at things from both the consumer side as well as the manufacturer/producer side. Sometimes the best solution is not a one-size-fits-all solution. DirecTV does have to pick and choose what they work on. I look forward to the day when CIR does work properly, but there may be things that we haven't considered that make it more difficult to implement.
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#48 OFFLINE   bonscott87

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:14 PM

This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!


Very true. I didn't even think about this. I have the Premier pack but could care less for the Sports Pack channels (it's just cheaper to get Premier). So the only channel in the 600s I care about is 636. But the Wings will show up on 636 AND one of the other channels (say Comcast Chicago on 640). I don't want the search to even know 640 exists let alone try to record a 3 hour block of blackness since that feed would be blacked out to me anyway.

Posted above is how the Sat T-60 did it and that is what the HR20 should be doing:

* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2

But if all the searching goes off of is CIR then it will still pick up channels I don't care about and can and will record sports on the wrong channels that are blacked out. UNLESS I can also give the search a channel number.

Example: Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From Channel 636.
Thus it will record anyting Red Wings but only off channel 636.

Or even more flexible do it this way:
Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From [CIR-My Channels-Fav List-Channel #]

That way I can restrict my search as wide or as narrow as I want.

#49 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:56 PM

bonscott87,

Not only did you play rippin' guitar for AC/DC, you have an even better solution here for the HR20's CIR bug!

The HR20 can already filter based on Sport, HD/SD, Rating, etc.

Why can't they filter on Favorites lists?

As a programmer, to filter on HD, First Run, etc., you have to dig into every one of thousands of Guide entries. That is way more tedious.

The favorites lists are already there.

They already know how to do filters.

Why can't those two go together?

Now ideally, I would still love my functionallity of having a My Channels as a thrid option.

Good thinking!

- Craig

Scott, I hope it is OK but I am going to put your corrections and updates in my post above. - c

#50 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:05 PM

No, fostering a discussion is terrific, but defending the indefensible isn't. I always read electronics manuals online before I make a buying decision. Rewriting the manual after the fact is Orwellian. When a company says our product can do X, I expect it to do X. Back when I taught consumer protection law, making material false representations was an important element in proving a fraud case.

I'm not going to get caught up in a technical discussion of how to implement a function that was promised to me before I bought the HR20, because I don't have access to any source code. However, the favorites data is obviously stored on the hard drive. I should be able to select which of my favorites to use in a keyword search. Why should this be such a big deal to implement?


The electronic manual that was available for the HR20 (and the same one today)... Is simply not valid for the vast majority of advanced features.

And frankly, IMHO... the manual should be nothing more then a setup guide... and then have online resources (on the HR20, or else where), for the rest of it. As specifically with this system, things are changing significantly over time.

We knew the day I released the review thread, the manual was wrong.
We knew when that "pre-version" started to float around, their where things wrong.

But that is besides the point... This is not the first, and won't be the last online manual that doesn't match it's product. Manuals (IMHO), are at the bottom of the list for a lot of products now adays.

-----------------------

Selecting "which one" of your favorites to do searches on... Sure.. that is a good feature to have, and one that I can see they may add... But as for when?
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