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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Please fix CIR (Rant!)


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97 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:31 AM

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2
(EDIT: I updated to include bonscott's corrected wording. Thank you, Scott!)

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

My Channels defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the My Channels no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to My Channels. Click it off if you want. So you don't miss an HBO freeview. At the end of the weekend, the HBO channels come right back out.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.c...rGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?

- Craig

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#42 OFFLINE   DaHound

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:50 AM

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedi...om/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling
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#43 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:51 AM

So CIR, would basically be a third favorite list...

On the HR10-250, when you pull something out of the Channels I Receive... it basically "removes" it from the system... all favorites, and you can not schedule recordings on it, until you put it back in.... (Basically the channel does not exist to the DVR functions... but you can key in the channel and watch it live, and use the buffer)


This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!

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#44 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:57 AM

I suspect CIR is slow to be put through because it takes channels that you don't currently pay for out of sight altogether. There's a loss of marketing when that's done.
In the eyes of marketing, you can't want what you don't know about. But if you're looking through the guide and you see a program listed on an unsubscribed channel, then you may want to order that channel. And that my firends is a SALE!


This doesn't hold up because like most people, I edit my favorites list, and get rid of all the channels I don't get or want. So when I bring up the guide, I have no idea what is on Logo that I might be missing. I never see what movie HBO HD has to offer. It only shows up when I schedule a autorecord, and get something I don't have access to, resulting is a black screen, and enough anger that I would never even consider ADDING channels to my package when I get a partially functional DVR right now. Why pay more for more channels I can't reliably record?

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#45 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 11:58 AM

Sony solved the Channels I Receive issues back in 2001 with the SAT-T60 DVR.

You get four options under Favorite Channels:
+ All Channels
+ Channels I Receive
+ Custom 1
+ Custom 2

Of course, only D* can change the "All Channels" list.

Channels I Receive defaults to include every channel. You can turn off shopping channels, etc. as you like.

The search results are based on the Channels I Receive no matter what filter you are actually using at the time. Otherwise an Autorecord could miss a program just because you had a filter selected.

If a new channel becomes available, it is automatically added to the Channels I Receive. Click it off if you want.

The HR20 manual was first released on May 8, 2006. It has been revised twice. We are now at the -b version which you can download here:

http://www.directv.c...rGuidev1_0b.pdf

The manual states that you can search for "just what you want to watch" (page 31).

Now you could.

We would no longer be waiting for the millions of other receivers to be fixed.

And for me, this is actually a better solution.

What do you think?

Works for me. /steve

#46 OFFLINE   oakwcj

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:12 PM

We need a more phlegmatical approach to this problem.

http://www.thefreedi...om/phlegmatical

Sorry, I couldn't resist: !rolling


Don't start making fun of the Phlegmish. You wouldn't want to have them spitting that stuff on you.

Actually, D*'s approach to this problem has been phlegmatic in the extreme. One might even say flaccid. We need less phlegm and more phlair.

#47 ONLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 12:27 PM

So fostering a discussion, that makes people look outside their personal implementation wants... EQUALS being an apologist? :mad:


There's nothing wrong with being an apologist :).

That being said, my personal opinion is that you are more a pragmatist than an apologist. I'm on board with that myself.

pragmatist
–noun
1. a person who is oriented toward the success or failure of a particular line of action, thought, etc.; a practical person.


It's not so much that DirecTV is right or wrong .. It's more that we all have a discussion that results in the right answer. I believe that Earl is trying to look at things from both the consumer side as well as the manufacturer/producer side. Sometimes the best solution is not a one-size-fits-all solution. DirecTV does have to pick and choose what they work on. I look forward to the day when CIR does work properly, but there may be things that we haven't considered that make it more difficult to implement.
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#48 OFFLINE   bonscott87

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:14 PM

This is EXACTLY what I want. I need to be able to tell the system that I don't get the channels in the 600's (well most of them). Otherwise, the system happily attempts to record Islanders games on FNSY, which I don't get. I have a large list of channels that I need to get gone!


Very true. I didn't even think about this. I have the Premier pack but could care less for the Sports Pack channels (it's just cheaper to get Premier). So the only channel in the 600s I care about is 636. But the Wings will show up on 636 AND one of the other channels (say Comcast Chicago on 640). I don't want the search to even know 640 exists let alone try to record a 3 hour block of blackness since that feed would be blacked out to me anyway.

Posted above is how the Sat T-60 did it and that is what the HR20 should be doing:

* All Channels (CIR in HR20 speak)
* My Channels (editable list of CIR and this is what searches would use)
* Fav 1
* Fav 2

But if all the searching goes off of is CIR then it will still pick up channels I don't care about and can and will record sports on the wrong channels that are blacked out. UNLESS I can also give the search a channel number.

Example: Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From Channel 636.
Thus it will record anyting Red Wings but only off channel 636.

Or even more flexible do it this way:
Keyword "Red Wings" | Sports | Hockey | From [CIR-My Channels-Fav List-Channel #]

That way I can restrict my search as wide or as narrow as I want.

#49 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 01:56 PM

bonscott87,

Not only did you play rippin' guitar for AC/DC, you have an even better solution here for the HR20's CIR bug!

The HR20 can already filter based on Sport, HD/SD, Rating, etc.

Why can't they filter on Favorites lists?

As a programmer, to filter on HD, First Run, etc., you have to dig into every one of thousands of Guide entries. That is way more tedious.

The favorites lists are already there.

They already know how to do filters.

Why can't those two go together?

Now ideally, I would still love my functionallity of having a My Channels as a thrid option.

Good thinking!

- Craig

Scott, I hope it is OK but I am going to put your corrections and updates in my post above. - c

#50 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:05 PM

No, fostering a discussion is terrific, but defending the indefensible isn't. I always read electronics manuals online before I make a buying decision. Rewriting the manual after the fact is Orwellian. When a company says our product can do X, I expect it to do X. Back when I taught consumer protection law, making material false representations was an important element in proving a fraud case.

I'm not going to get caught up in a technical discussion of how to implement a function that was promised to me before I bought the HR20, because I don't have access to any source code. However, the favorites data is obviously stored on the hard drive. I should be able to select which of my favorites to use in a keyword search. Why should this be such a big deal to implement?


The electronic manual that was available for the HR20 (and the same one today)... Is simply not valid for the vast majority of advanced features.

And frankly, IMHO... the manual should be nothing more then a setup guide... and then have online resources (on the HR20, or else where), for the rest of it. As specifically with this system, things are changing significantly over time.

We knew the day I released the review thread, the manual was wrong.
We knew when that "pre-version" started to float around, their where things wrong.

But that is besides the point... This is not the first, and won't be the last online manual that doesn't match it's product. Manuals (IMHO), are at the bottom of the list for a lot of products now adays.

-----------------------

Selecting "which one" of your favorites to do searches on... Sure.. that is a good feature to have, and one that I can see they may add... But as for when?
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#51 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:11 PM

You could call it that. No reason to see channels you don't receive or never want to see (like shopping channels, in my case). Or folks could just leave it alone, if they didn't want to edit it.

Actually, in the example you cited:

someone that doesn't want the OTA channels to be listed in their guide (which Favorite filters), but does want them to be included in Search results?

If folks wanted to be able to record a channel, I don't know why they wouldn't want to also see those channels in their guide. Probably a very rare case that doesn't need to be accounted for.

Just my $.02. /steve


Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.
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#52 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:32 PM

Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.



Sounds like you want a favorites-based search, then, with multiple favorites lists to choose from. Seems perfectly doable. If we went the Sat-T60 way with either All, CIR, Fav 1 or Fav 2, and each was search or guide selectable, you could just about cover any situation.

I'd just call them Fav 1, Fav 2, Fav 3 and Fav 4 to avoid confusion.

/steve

#53 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:41 PM

Sounds like you want a favorites-based search, then, with multiple favorites lists to choose from. Seems perfectly doable. If we went the Sat-T60 way with either All, CIR, Fav 1 or Fav 2, and each was search or guide selectable, you could just about cover any situation.

I'd just call them Fav 1, Fav 2, Fav 3 and Fav 4 to avoid confusion.

/steve


Yes...exactly... but how do you then configure which Favorite to use in the search? Do you add an extra step to the Search criteria screen? Or do you force to use the current loaded favorites...

How do you handle Auto-Records? Do you use the Favorite list used at the time of the search (and then setup of the record)..... Do you have to have any extra handling if that Favorite list is changed (and there is an Auto record tied to it).

And again... I am agreement with that a feature should be included to allow some sort of filtering on the Searches, as I too don't like to see 6 hits for NBC in my Search results...

I am simply putting out there, that it is not just as simple as "let's add a filter"... you have to consider all the factors that go into it (that includes the GUI aspect, and how changes to that search code, may effect other processes that uses the same search code).
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#54 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 02:53 PM

Yes...exactly... but how do you then configure which Favorite to use in the search? Do you add an extra step to the Search criteria screen? Or do you force to use the current loaded favorites...

How do you handle Auto-Records? Do you use the Favorite list used at the time of the search (and then setup of the record)..... Do you have to have any extra handling if that Favorite list is changed (and there is an Auto record tied to it).

And again... I am agreement with that a feature should be included to allow some sort of filtering on the Searches, as I too don't like to see 6 hits for NBC in my Search results...

I am simply putting out there, that it is not just as simple as "let's add a filter"... you have to consider all the factors that go into it (that includes the GUI aspect, and how changes to that search code, may effect other processes that uses the same search code).


Yup. I'm saying they could add a new pull-down "Favorites" field to the guide, to search, to autosearch and anywhere else it's appropriate to choose which Favorites list to use for that function.

I think the wish list item to filter final results by network and channel selected in the first search is a separate issue, equally important tho! :)

/steve

#55 OFFLINE   Chaos

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:00 PM

It seems to me that the HR10-250 had the (almost) perfect answer:

1. Adjustable "Channels I Receive" (Hopefully automatic on the HR20)
2. The ability to see and therefore "All Channels" (Even the ones that I removed from CIR)
3. Favorites for the guide.

I never understood the need for multiple favorites lists.

#56 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:03 PM

It seems to me that the HR10-250 had the (almost) perfect answer:

1. Adjustable "Channels I Receive" (Hopefully automatic on the HR20)
2. The ability to see and therefore "All Channels" (Even the ones that I removed from CIR)
3. Favorites for the guide.

I never understood the need for multiple favorites lists.


One problem with the TiVo implementation... Once you removed it from your Channels I Receive list... You could not record on it... By any method (Series Link, Search, Individual, ect)

The channel HAD to be in your CIR in order to record anything from it.

As for the need for Multiple Favorites... I do wish the HR20 had more then two:

Right now; I have one set for just HD stations (that I am intrested in monitoring)
The other, to our "core" channels (About 40).

I would easily have another one for my Son's "core" channels; One for just the locals, when I am setting up the new seasons worth of programs...
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#57 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:08 PM

Here in Chicago we have a good number of sub-channels... some that specialize in re-runs... I would want the searchs to exclude those subchannels (especially for Auto-Records, which are nothing more then a SERACH that records what it finds)... But would still want them on my guide, for those times I am just looking for something to watch.

There are also times, that I would want to filter the "west" coast versions of the channels, so they don't hit in searches (thus doubling up the results)... but when going through the guide... I would want to see them.

Early, following up on what Craig wrote, you can get what you want! :)

First, there need to be a minimum of three channel lists:

All Channels - This would be every channel DirecTV provides, whether or not you subscribe to it, and it wouls also be ALL OTA channels you receive.

My Channels/Channels I Receive - This is a subset of All Channels and is user configurable. Any channel NOT in his list can not be used in searchs (and autorecords). In addition, you can not add to your favorites any channel that is NOT also in your CIR list.

Favorites 1 [...2][...] - A subset of your CIR list. If you want to make a channel a Favorite, it first has to be in your CIR list.


SEARCHES and AUTORECORDS
are automatically limited to your CIR list, so if you edit your CIR list properly, you exclude any channels you don't subscribe to or can't receive (ex: OTA)

The GUIDE allows you to view (1) All Channels, (2) CIR, or (3) Your Favorites.

For your specific example, you would exclude those re-run subchannels in Chicago from your CIR list, so they're excluded form the searches, but when you want to see those subchannels in the guide, simply flip to the ALL CHANNELS view.


To me, this is a very simple solution, and it indeed closely mirrors TiVo's implementation, so it is already a tried-and-true process.

#58 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:11 PM

One problem with the TiVo implementation... Once you removed it from your Channels I Receive list... You could not record on it... By any method (Series Link, Search, Individual, ect)

The channel HAD to be in your CIR in order to record anything from it.

I don't see that as a problem at all. If you want to record form it, you leave the channel in your CIR list. If you don't want to record from it, remove it from the list.

Conversely, if you remove a channel from the list, be aware you can't record from it.

As long as the CIR screen includes simple instructions for how the channel list is used, the end user knows what they're getting by adding or dropping a channel from the CIR list. To quote a coworker of mine, it's not rocket surgery! :)

#59 OFFLINE   hambonewd

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 03:16 PM

circus--ha ha ha

directv should hire google to do design the UI and functionality features. google seems to be the king of all kings when it comes to usability. i use google for everything now. replaced yahoo email with gmail. no longer waste my time with mapquest--google maps is far superior, google calendar is awesome too. google seems to be the best at everything they do. would be awesome if directv partnered with them.

ok ill wake up now.

#60 OFFLINE   Jeremy W

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Posted 16 April 2007 - 04:16 PM

directv should hire google to do design the UI and functionality features.

Yeah, hire a company with zero experience in the field of TV UI design to work on their UI. Brilliant! :rolleyes:

<rant>
The constant Google love-fest going on these days really makes me sick. Google would be a terrible company to hire to design a UI for DirecTV's receivers, but the almighty Google can do anything! Microsoft would be a much better candidate for the job, considering the fact that they have considerable experience and they have tended to do an excellent job in the past. But you'd never hear anybody say that DirecTV should get Microsoft to design their UI. It'll always be Google or Apple.
</rant>




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