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Dish not grounded.


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99 replies to this topic

#81 OFFLINE   Rick Barton

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:54 AM

If the dish is struck by lightning having it properly grounded 17 awg to 10 awg to # 6 bare copper provides a safe path for the strike into the ground and away from your FAMILY. You can replace all the equipment!!!

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#82 OFFLINE   CobraGuy

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:03 AM

I've been inside a house that was hit by lightning...and this house was set up for lightning protection. It was amazing. There is no way your satellite equipment will survive that...grounded or not. However, proper grounding will protect against many other maladies that may crop up. One thing I noticed was during wind. The installer didn't install a single ground wire. During wind, I noticed an occasional "pop" in my video. Since I've properly grounded it, I have never seen that happen. I believe static electricity from wind can be a huge problem.

And quite honestly, you're a fool not to have a properly grounded system. Like was mentioned...would you cancel your fire insurance just because you've never had a fire?? Great analogy.

#83 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:24 AM

I've been inside a house that was hit by lightning...and this house was set up for lightning protection. It was amazing. There is no way your satellite equipment will survive that...grounded or not. However, proper grounding will protect against many other maladies that may crop up. One thing I noticed was during wind. The installer didn't install a single ground wire. During wind, I noticed an occasional "pop" in my video. Since I've properly grounded it, I have never seen that happen. I believe static electricity from wind can be a huge problem.

And quite honestly, you're a fool not to have a properly grounded system. Like was mentioned...would you cancel your fire insurance just because you've never had a fire?? Great analogy.

Would you or anyone else with this sort of direct experience please also make a post under this thread:

HR20 Satellite Dish Antenna Grounding Requirements

Not grounding your satellite dish is asking to be a new chapter in Murphy's Law.

- Craig

#84 OFFLINE   guzmania

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:48 AM

Regardless of what you might have read, you do need to ground your satellite dish.

Click this link to see if your dish is properly grounded.

You will also see details on the five main reason why your dish needs to be grounded:
1. Safety
2. Manufacturer’s Warranty
3. Local Code and Ordinance.
4. Insurability
5. Proper Operation of Electronics

A group of us carefully researched these points to try to make sure that you had good information. Please take a look.

Craig
EE


I'd agree with everything in your list with the caveat that a "ground" point that isn't at the exact potential as the "ground" the electronics are seeing can cause many problems. Just attaching wires to places that look "groundish" can be detrimental to stable ops. There should be as little ressistance as possible (i.e. as close to a direct connection) between the dish ground point and the receivers electronic ground. The resistance between these two points is what the voltage of a ground loop is developed across. A ground loop makes a nice flat digital signal wiggle like an AC sine wave because that developed voltage is summed with the digital signal.

In SoCal we don't have many thunderstorms so I am not qualified to talk lightning strike. But in New Orleans once I was doing a Saints game and the Satellite truck took a hit. The 4ot ground wire did not save the electronics.

#85 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:16 PM

If the dish is struck by lightning having it properly grounded 17 awg to 10 awg to # 6 bare copper provides a safe path for the strike into the ground and away from your FAMILY. You can replace all the equipment!!!


Doing a good ground for the dish is an excellent idea. That, of course is a safety ground.

Anyone who thinks that a #17 wire or #10 wire to #6 wire to.....what...this post doesn't say? is sadly mistaken. PLEASE NO ONE FOLLOW WHAT IS SUGGESTED IN THIS POST, thinking it provides any safety from a direct hit from lightning. It could be more wrong, but not much. There is NOTHING in this post that would assure safety from a direct hit for either you or your equipment.

Grounding for lightning protection is a VERY, VERY DEMANDING discipline, and the "suggestions" in this post are nowhere near close to meeting that requirement.

Anyone who has interest in increasing the liklyhood of personal survival and equipment survival in the face of a direct hit of home electronics needs to go to polyphaser.com and read their excellent documentation on the issue of ground protection. Pay special attention to the concept described as a "single point ground".

Running a single thin wire from a dish to a single ground rod is NO PROTECTION WHATSOEVER, FOR YOUR FAMILY OR YOUR EQUIPMENT from damage as a result of a direct hit.

Dishes need to be grounded, period. Lightning mitigation is an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ISSUE. The ground requirement on dishes is a SAFETY GROUND protecting against GROUND FAULT conditions (local shock hazards). This has absolutely nothing to do with lightning protection.

I wouldn't have posted things in caps ...but the advice in this post is so ill-advised and so ill-informed, that it needed to be refuted before some poor soul gets killed trying to follow it....and T-Boomer season is upon us.

...hasan, N0AN

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#86 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:28 PM

Think of the 17 [BTW gauge is always even so..16 or 18] gauge wire as a fuse that will blow in the first instant of the lighting strike, leaving no protection [wrong word GROUND] to do anything.
Grounding is good, but lighting is a trillion amps & a "gazillion" volts. There isn't anything on God's green earth that will stand up to it. Maybe the "polyphasors", but I'm not ready to bet my life on them.
If you get hit & live, you're lucky. Grounding the dish is a good thing to do, but lightening is in a class by itself & no 6 gauge wire will save your a$$.
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#87 OFFLINE   n3ntj

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:28 PM

Guys, I don't think anyone on here has claimed that proper grounding will save life or equipment in the event of a direct strike. We all know that isn't possible.

I believe the purpose of the thread and document is to help protect from nearby lightning strikes and minimize damage, plus discuss what the NEC requires (and D* claims is performed as part of professional installation).
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#88 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 05:35 PM

I believe the purpose of the thread and document is to help protect from nearby lightning strikes and minimize damage, plus discuss what the NEC requires (and D* claims is performed as part of professional installation).

Let's get "lightening" completely out of the discussion. If it hits near by then it found its own ground & [again] the dish has nothing to do with it.
Grounding the dish is a good thing.
The bigger the wire used the better.
No more "lightening" references as there isn't a chance of any of this doing any good for it.
A.K.A VOS

#89 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 06:51 PM

Guys, I don't think anyone on here has claimed that proper grounding will save life or equipment in the event of a direct strike. We all know that isn't possible.

I believe the purpose of the thread and document is to help protect from nearby lightning strikes and minimize damage, plus discuss what the NEC requires (and D* claims is performed as part of professional installation).


That is EXACTLY what the poster claimed, that I so strongly took issue with:

"If the dish is struck by lightning having it properly grounded 17 awg to 10 awg to # 6 bare copper provides a safe path for the strike into the ground and away from your FAMILY. You can replace all the equipment!!!"


So, yes, someone claimed that what is contained within the quotes above would "provide a safe path for the strike....".....absolutely WRONG, and dangerously wrong.

That is why I was so "firm" in my remarks. Claims for safety were being made that were ....well....rubbish.

I couldn't let it go. I should also have spelled polyphaser correctly (I had it ending in "or", the correct link is polyphaser.com)

As VOS has noted, grounding the dish is an NEC requirement to prevent shock hazards (ground fault conditions). It has NOTHING to do with lightning protection, specifically if done as suggested in most consumer electronic manuals.

If I hadn't seen the claim that there was safety from lightning in the method the poster described, I'd have kept my yapp shut. I'll crawl back under my rock now.:)

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#90 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:14 PM

IIRC from my college days, you'd need a ground wire the size of a telephone pole to carry that lightning bolt. What would that be? Size 00000000000000000000 wire? :confused: :eek2:

The whole point is to dissipate static build up, thus reducing the chance of a direct hit, and to provide shock protection in the event of contact with a live electric feed.
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#91 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:26 PM

IIRC from my college days, you'd need a ground wire the size of a telephone pole to carry that lightning bolt. What would that be? Size 00000000000000000000 wire? :confused: :eek2:

The whole point is to dissipate static build up, thus reducing the chance of a direct hit, and to provide shock protection in the event of contact with a live electric feed.

+1 :D
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#92 OFFLINE   dave1234

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:27 PM

From page iii of the HR20 manual.

This reminder is provided to call your attention to articles 810 and 820 of the 2002 National Electrical Code. Refer to article 810, in particular 810-1 and 810-15, for required grounding of the metal structure of the dish antenna. Refer also to the 810-2 which, by reference to article 820, requires that the satellite dish coaxial cable shield be connected to the grounding system of the building as close to the point of cable entry as practical.

Note the text does not say "suggested" it says "required".

I know of no AHJ's in this country that don't require grounding as per NEC810.

#93 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 07:59 PM

IIRC from my college days, you'd need a ground wire the size of a telephone pole to carry that lightning bolt. What would that be? Size 00000000000000000000 wire? :confused: :eek2:

The whole point is to dissipate static build up, thus reducing the chance of a direct hit, and to provide shock protection in the event of contact with a live electric feed.


Again, I recommend reading polyphaser's material, as they are the industry's experts in the field. Static build up (setting up corona discharge) is a much greater concern for point sources, high in the air, unshielded by higher objects in the same area. (somewhat atypical of most dish setups)

As you noted, direct hits are a much bigger issue. Induced surges ARE a VERY big concern, and a small wire from a dish to a single ground rod will not help one iota. The ONLY solution is a properly installed single point ground. This task is NOT a trivial matter, nor is it inexpensive, but it is a far cry from the aforementioned NEC "ground".

I agree with VOS's suggestion....we stay far away from lightning mitigation discussions. They are no small matter, and not really on topic for the HR20. Grounding the Dish IS important. Thinking there is any significant connection between the grounding of the dish and mitigating lightning strikes and/or surges is pure folly.

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#94 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:29 PM

anybody here order a pizza? The pizza guys knocking on my door, and I didn't order one. Now he's calling and I see his phone number on my tv screen. Who ordered Papa Johns?

#95 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 08:48 PM

anybody here order a pizza? The pizza guys knocking on my door, and I didn't order one. Now he's calling and I see his phone number on my tv screen. Who ordered Papa Johns?


See if you can keep it at a discount, saving him a complete loss (unless he looks particularly hungry):D

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#96 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 09:10 PM

See if you can keep it at a discount, saving him a complete loss (unless he looks particularly hungry):D


I would if I could, but my girl brought over $5O worth of sushi!!!:hurah: :grin:

#97 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 11 May 2007 - 10:15 PM

I would if I could, but my girl brought over $5O worth of sushi!!!:hurah: :grin:

That will go on the grill quite well.
A.K.A VOS

#98 OFFLINE   CobraGuy

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 08:10 AM

hasan, I love your input. It's what I've tried to say all along. There's not much that will protect you in case of a direct hit. When I was a kid, I moved pipe during the summers. (any old farmers out there that remember having to manually move your sprinkler pipe??) You carried a 40' section of 4" aluminum pipe to the next station...a quarter of a mile's worth of pipe per line. One evening, my buddy was hit by lightning with a section of pipe in his hands. It was unbelievable what it did to him. There is no way in God's green earth you can protect yourself from that kind of power and devastation.

What grounding your dish and cables does (IMO) is protect you from static electricity and weird voltage differences that can tend to float around. I'm not an electrical engineer...but I've been around this stuff forever and have a good grasp of what it takes to make some strange electrical issues disappear. This is one MUST do in my opinion.

#99 OFFLINE   RobertE

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Posted 12 May 2007 - 11:22 AM

hasan, I love your input. It's what I've tried to say all along. There's not much that will protect you in case of a direct hit. When I was a kid, I moved pipe during the summers. (any old farmers out there that remember having to manually move your sprinkler pipe??) You carried a 40' section of 4" aluminum pipe to the next station...a quarter of a mile's worth of pipe per line. One evening, my buddy was hit by lightning with a section of pipe in his hands. It was unbelievable what it did to him. There is no way in God's green earth you can protect yourself from that kind of power and devastation.

What grounding your dish and cables does (IMO) is protect you from static electricity and weird voltage differences that can tend to float around. I'm not an electrical engineer...but I've been around this stuff forever and have a good grasp of what it takes to make some strange electrical issues disappear. This is one MUST do in my opinion.


Thats basicly what I said in post 90. :rolleyes:
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#100 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 13 May 2007 - 01:42 PM

The final statement in HR20 Satellite Dish Antenna Grounding Requirements is this:

Proper grounding does not prevent all lightning strikes. As NASA states, lightning can be up to 5 times hotter than the sun and up to 300,000 volts.

- Craig




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