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Guest Message by DevFuse

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New Tact: HD Programmers Stop Movement!


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26 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:02 PM

Since it has become very obvious that DirecTV is using compression that just can't seem to deliver a quality picture when the cameraperson has the audacity to move his/her camera, I suggest...

All camera movement during sporting events be banned.

I know this is drastic...but D is obviously incapable of HD without this rule.

Actually, let's make it real easy on them. All movement of any sort should be stopped.

Thanks.

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#2 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:04 PM

You see the same thing in OTA-HD MPEG-2... (watch a NBC Sporting event via OTA)
You see the same thing in MPEG-2 DVD's at time... (it has gotten a lot better over the years, but some of the first DVD's where just terrible)

Fast movement and compression schemes... simply don't play nicely together.

Most compression schemes are done via keeping track of the changes (instead of the full picture image), so when you have a LOT of changes frame to frame...
The compression suffers (either you have to relax it, or you lose something)...
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#3 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:25 PM

Earl,
There's a difference. I don't pay for OTA-HD :)
I'm watching the Yankees/Red Sox game and any time a runner jogs to the dugout or lord forbid a runner scores...the picture becomes horrid.

So...they just need to stop movement....or do it off camera.

Obviously D believes the product they're showing to be acceptable.

#4 OFFLINE   gregchak

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:30 PM

I'm in agreement on this one. I don't notice it very much but the broadcast of the Sox/Yankees game this evening is not very good. Even the still shots don't look as good as they should or have in the past.

#5 OFFLINE   richiephx

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 07:36 PM

If they would allocate sufficient bandwidth, the macroblocking would be minimized.

#6 OFFLINE   Drew2k

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:28 PM

Earl,
There's a difference. I don't pay for OTA-HD :)
I'm watching the Yankees/Red Sox game and any time a runner jogs to the dugout or lord forbid a runner scores...the picture becomes horrid.

So...they just need to stop movement....or do it off camera.

Obviously D believes the product they're showing to be acceptable.

What channel are you watching on? Here in NY it's only on channel 9 tonight, which is only available as an SD channel from DirecTV.

#7 OFFLINE   Earl Bonovich

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 09:39 PM

Earl,
There's a difference. I don't pay for OTA-HD :)
I'm watching the Yankees/Red Sox game and any time a runner jogs to the dugout or lord forbid a runner scores...the picture becomes horrid.

So...they just need to stop movement....or do it off camera.

Obviously D believes the product they're showing to be acceptable.


Hmm... When I was watching the Bulls last week in HD... guess those fast passes, and court shots... that I could see without a blur...

I guess I need to get my eyes checked.
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#8 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 22 May 2007 - 11:53 PM

Earl,
There's a difference. I don't pay for OTA-HD :)
I'm watching the Yankees/Red Sox game and any time a runner jogs to the dugout or lord forbid a runner scores...the picture becomes horrid.

So...they just need to stop movement....or do it off camera.

Obviously D believes the product they're showing to be acceptable.


? So you think DIRECTV should take a lousy, lossy original signal and compress it better? :) This would be cool magic.

I've seen some horrible stuff come across the OTA feeds until the locals realized they can't steal bits for subchannels.

Cheers,
Tom

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#9 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 06:26 AM

? So you think DIRECTV should take a lousy, lossy original signal and compress it better? :) This would be cool magic.

I've seen some horrible stuff come across the OTA feeds until the locals realized they can't steal bits for subchannels.

Cheers,
Tom


So the bad PQ is NESN's fault? Ahh...I knew it couldn't be DirecTV's issue. That would be insane.

#10 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 06:27 AM

What channel are you watching on? Here in NY it's only on channel 9 tonight, which is only available as an SD channel from DirecTV.


731 I think

#11 OFFLINE   STEVED21

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 06:33 AM

I watched two hockey games on NBC-E last weekend. There is no sport with more constant movement on TV and there was nothing wrong with the picture. Except, of course the two second loss of picture typical with NBC HD. But the motion had nothing to do with that.

#12 OFFLINE   noneroy

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:12 AM

I propose no sports be shown on NBC for any reason.

That would eliminate my complains about macroblocking. Everything looks fine on ESPN/ABC/CBS....but NBC can't seem to get it right to save their lives....

#13 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:14 AM

NBC was something another poster brought up. My posts were concerning the Yankees/Red Sox game on channel 131 which was broadcast by NESN and part of the Extra Innings package with the HD extra service.

#14 OFFLINE   Steve Robertson

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:24 AM

NESN here in Boston looked very good for the most part not as bad as you are describing

#15 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:54 AM

Steve,

Wasn't just me...and if you weren't watching the game closely you would miss the parts where it got horrid. The basic CF in camera during pitches were fine. It's when they switched to a camera following a guy around third...or someone jogging to the dugout.

I'm not a PQ snob by any means. When I complain about HD it's generally because the picture looks like something I watched pre cable with my mother running the vacuum cleaner.

#16 OFFLINE   wilbur_the_goose

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 09:09 AM

patience - once it goes to MPEG-4 on the new bird, it'll be much better. We're in a transition period now, just like earlier when the locals were on CONUS. It's gonna get better.

DirecTV customer since 1996


#17 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 09:47 AM

Wilbur...umm that won't be until the baseball season is just about over (at the earliest). I'd have more patience if we weren't tagged for extra money for this quality HD on the baseball package.

#18 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 10:16 AM

I watched two hockey games on NBC-E last weekend. There is no sport with more constant movement on TV and there was nothing wrong with the picture. Except, of course the two second loss of picture typical with NBC HD. But the motion had nothing to do with that.


I was about to add that the Vs HD on 94/95 are great (NHL), but the NBC feed is awful. Pixelation all the time, it looks like a mosaic, but then, I'm just happy that KRNV has finally aired a HD game in HD! In the past, most of the NHL games on NBC have been in SD on KRNV HD channel.

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#19 OFFLINE   Indiana627

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 10:57 AM

Hockey HD on NBC OTA was much, much better than hockey HD on VS HD channel 94/95 on Directv. So there is definitely more compression with D*.

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#20 OFFLINE   PlanetBill

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:13 AM

Where the problem is most noticable for me is on a zoomed in camera shot on a player moving, all the background image is really bad (TNT HD Basketball) but the player is focused. somewhere down the line the bit rate is being reduced. I think the national HD's are the worst for this.
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#21 OFFLINE   Jon D

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 11:19 AM

Hmm... When I was watching the Bulls last week in HD... guess those fast passes, and court shots... that I could see without a blur...

I guess I need to get my eyes checked.


Your eyes are fine. I was actually kind of surprised how well the playoffs looked on TNTHD. The ones ESPN did were almost as good. I've noticed that CBS doesn't look as good. And FOX is usually excellent. Clearly, to say that it is all DirecTV's fault is plain ignorance. He just doesn't understand how this stuff works. In some cases I think DirecTV could do a better job, but to put HD picture issues wholey on them is not fair. And making rediculous sarcastic comments about banning all camera motion is just childish silliness. I think there are better ways to make points.

#22 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 12:55 PM

Your eyes are fine. I was actually kind of surprised how well the playoffs looked on TNTHD. The ones ESPN did were almost as good. I've noticed that CBS doesn't look as good. And FOX is usually excellent. Clearly, to say that it is all DirecTV's fault is plain ignorance. He just doesn't understand how this stuff works. In some cases I think DirecTV could do a better job, but to put HD picture issues wholey on them is not fair. And making rediculous sarcastic comments about banning all camera motion is just childish silliness. I think there are better ways to make points.


Jon,

I'm glad you're okay with making personal attacks. That's certainly a more acceptable method of making a point.

As for my knowledge of compression. You're wrong.

Actually, that seems to be a standard around here. If you say something some D supporter will exaggerate your comment (I never said the problem was purely D in this case) and then claim that you don't know about the technical aspects and can't possibly know what you're talking about.

At no time did you address the show I was talking about. I'm glad that the NBA playoffs were fine. It's a shame that NBC's picture wasn't that great. But...in this case it was the Yankees/Red Sox game broadcast on channel 131 from NESN that was horrible? Did you see the game? My guess is no...so you chose to attack me.

#23 OFFLINE   islesfan

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 01:31 PM

Hockey HD on NBC OTA was much, much better than hockey HD on VS HD channel 94/95 on Directv. So there is definitely more compression with D*.


Unfortunately, I don't have access to OTA, so I can only go by the D* version. In our area, NBC is completely awful. CBS is the best, followed closely by FOX. ABC is behind only because they are not in 5.1. NBC is the worst due to blurriness, pixelation, no 5.1, and often they forget to switch on the HD feed, so we get a SD feed on the HD channel.

By the way, I don't blame D* for any of this. I have confirmed that the sound issues are both with the stations. The picture issue has been consistently bad with KRNV (NBC).

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#24 OFFLINE   Ken S

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 01:56 PM

Isles,

While it's almost impossible for D to make a transmission better quality that what they receive ... especially if it's live.

It's very easy for their increased compression to make it worse. This is happening on some channels and with some content.

There are certain instances where certain types and degrees of those types of compression are going to do very poorly. In those cases D should consider making changes to bring the quality up by either using a different compression method.

Last night's game was an example of a very poor HD broadcast. I've also seen huge problems with some movies on HBOH and TNTHD. I'm not talking about the occasional macro pixel...I'm talking total pixelation or large amounts of blur.

I tossed my initial post up there a bit tongue in cheek (obviously).

#25 OFFLINE   STEVED21

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 02:06 PM

Steve,

Wasn't just me...and if you weren't watching the game closely you would miss the parts where it got horrid. The basic CF in camera during pitches were fine. It's when they switched to a camera following a guy around third...or someone jogging to the dugout.

I'm not a PQ snob by any means. When I complain about HD it's generally because the picture looks like something I watched pre cable with my mother running the vacuum cleaner.


My point was that the PQ of the hockey with a lot of motion had none of the effects that you described as being a problem with the Yankee game last night. We did not get that feed here in NY so I can't make a true comparison. NBC has other problems we deal with as far as pixelation.




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