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Difficult Install/LOS Issues (Renamed -A sad day...)


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#21 OFFLINE   flatus

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 07:52 AM

Maybe. That's what I'm hoping the technician will tell me next week. The big trees are within about 20-30 feet of the house, so there is a clear sight-line in the northwest and southwest corners of the back yard, but I'm worried that they might be too far from the house, and also I don't know where the coax cables would go... would they bury them?


I am in a similar situation. There is only one spot on my entire property where i could get a clean shot at 119 and 110. That spot happens to be almost dead center of my front yard.

So I pole mounted my dish and planted hollies and leyland cypress (?? both evergreen) around it so it isn't visible from the street.

For 3 years I had cheap rg6 buried about 2 inches in the ground from the dish to the house. I finally had a chance to dig a proper trench and put quality rg6 in conduit, but there is no reason you cant bury it.

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#22 OFFLINE   Jeff P

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 07:52 AM

Thanks for all of the responses, guys... you're giving me hope! I actually went in the back yard last night and looked around. I have a real hope that a pole-mounted dish in the southwest corner of the backyard will work.

At that point there is a completely clear sight-line to the south and south-southwest.

A few responses...

My dish and receiver are 75 ft apart. Coax is just strung through the air. Is there a reason why yours would have to be undergound?


The reason I would want to bury it is aesthetics. It's one thing to have cables (phone, power, etc.) running from a 50-foot utility pole to my house... it's another to have one running from a pole-mounted dish on the other side of the yard.

Good luck with that. BTW, I miss Tulsa. What part of town are you in with all those trees?


Midtown, near 41st and Lewis.

I had a problem when a neighbor's trees grew too high. Moved the dish from the side of the house to a pole 50 ft behind the house in 2000 and have had no problems since then. If the wife complains about the dish in the middle of the yard, plant some flowers around it for her.


That sounds good. :) The good thing is that the spot where I think the pole-mounted dish might work is obscured by the aforementioned big trees.

#23 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 08:11 AM

If you have a clear los from the back of your yard, trench a line 3- 4" deep. Before you do, make absolutely sure theres a los, or you'll be like a new guy! "I thought I had a line of sight", 5 hours later!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: Compass skills baby!

#24 OFFLINE   compubit

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Posted 01 June 2007 - 07:31 PM

I've done a pole mount in my back yard. One thing to consider is getting some PVC conduit and running the cable through it. Also, consider running an extra (or two) cables from your pole. I ran 4, just in case, and am glad I did - when I started, I had 2 receivers and a Dish 500 twin. Now with 129 and 148 (and 91... ;) ), I'm using all 4 lines (and wish I had one more...).

When setting up the dishes (and checking LOS on 148) I took a receiver, small TV, and a long extension cable out to where I was setting up the dish before doing the mounting.

Jim

#25 OFFLINE   Michael P

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 07:35 AM

I would not want a tree mounted dish unless the tree was just a dead stump. A live tree grows, in time your dish would need to be realigned, and over time the cable would need to be extended as the dish rises higher (or better yet put a lot of slack at the dish end).
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#26 OFFLINE   Jason Nipp

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:06 AM

...5 hours later!!!:lol: :lol: :lol: Compass skills baby!

Compass skills are nice....but I like to cheat whenever I can and save time. :grin:

I bought this awhile back, some others probably have one, but this is called a SatelLOCK. I picked it up at Skywalker for under $20.

It is a tool that has a Plum/Bob level built into the cap. It is hollowed out so you place it onto the dish mount shaft, from there Plum and level the mount, then remove the cap, underneath is a compass. There is an azimuth scale on the side. Turn the indicator until it aligns with the correct azimuth setting. Then rotate the tool until the compass aligns with that setting. There is a slot on the front and back of the tool. Use a permanent marker in these slots to mark the lines on the mount shaft. These lines are exactly where the dish will be pointing. I just put the clamp on the line in the rear, and it points correctly everytime.

This thing is cheap, and it has saved me hours.... Others opinions may differ.

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#27 OFFLINE   Grandude

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:53 AM

I would not want a tree mounted dish unless the tree was just a dead stump. A live tree grows, in time your dish would need to be realigned, and over time the cable would need to be extended as the dish rises higher (or better yet put a lot of slack at the dish end).

Actually, a tree grows up at the ends of its branches. You can test this by plugging a drip tube for maple syrup in a tree and you won't need a ladder to collect the syrup 10 years from now.

Anything mounted on the tree will remain at the same height but will be moved outward as the tree expands with age. This would affect the dish signal some.

I would be more concerned about a tree swaying in the wind causing dropouts.
I guess I would also worry if this was the tallest tree around and I lived in thunderstorm prone parts of the country.

Brian...reporting from the left coast
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#28 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:39 AM

Compass skills are nice....but I like to cheat whenever I can and save time. :grin:

I bought this awhile back, some others probably have one, but this is called a SatelLOCK. I picked it up at Skywalker for under $20.

It is a tool that has a Plum/Bob level built into the cap. It is hollowed out so you place it onto the dish mount shaft, from there Plum and level the mount, then remove the cap, underneath is a compass. There is an azimuth scale on the side. Turn the indicator until it aligns with the correct azimuth setting. Then rotate the tool until the compass aligns with that setting. There is a slot on the front and back of the tool. Use a permanent marker in these slots to mark the lines on the mount shaft. These lines are exactly where the dish will be pointing. I just put the clamp on the line in the rear, and it points correctly everytime.

This thing is cheap, and it has saved me hours.... Others opinions may differ.


So like how do you use this when the dish has to be up above where you can see this? Compass skills tell me if its a LOS immediately or a job DNS will not do in seconds.

#29 OFFLINE   Jason Nipp

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 10:51 AM

You come off kinda negative.... are you DNSC?

BTW it is an installation tool not a site survey tool.

Please try to be part of the solution, not part of the pessimism. I have heard you give all the reasons it can't be done.... now get creative and brainstorm on ways that could get the job done.

Again, with some $$ and creativity, there is a better chance of obtaining the goal, an immediate yes or no just doesn't meet the end objective.


.

#30 OFFLINE   mkovacs

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 12:57 PM

When I moved into my house in Texas 10 years ago I had the same problem. The tech solved it by mounting the dish on the roof of the house. I walked around the roof until he could get a good LOS to the sats. He stated that if the trees grow to much I might have some problems I but never did.

I have since moved to Vermont and will have a similar problem here with my soon to be constructed new house. I plan take the same approach but am not optimistic it will have good results (very tall trees but house will 30 ft at the peak). But the surprising things I have seen here are the creative locations for the dish. On mail boxs at the front of the house with cable run of 100 feet. Short (10 ft) poles in the middle of the yard with the dish on top and several under feet of cable. I even spotted a pole (not sure of the height) mounted on the roof top to get the dish over the trees.
You will just have to hope the new tech can be a little creative and "think out of the box" so to speak. And if you don't have LOS to the sat maybe you can trim the tree height a little. My brother had Dish in New Jersey and after a few years he had to trim a hole in the trees to get his signal back up to useable levels.
Good Luck
Marty

#31 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 02:43 PM

You come off kinda negative.... are you DNSC?

BTW it is an installation tool not a site survey tool.

Please try to be part of the solution, not part of the pessimism. I have heard you give all the reasons it can't be done.... now get creative and brainstorm on ways that could get the job done.

Again, with some $$ and creativity, there is a better chance of obtaining the goal, an immediate yes or no just doesn't meet the end objective.


.


Dude, it doesn't take much for YOU to cop a tude does it? Basically, I do all I can to 'safely' do a job. If it is not safe to do, I let experts like YOU service them, thats all. Now, if theres a los, do it!

#32 OFFLINE   Jason Nipp

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 02:57 PM

Dude, it doesn't take much for YOU to cop a tude does it? Basically, I do all I can to 'safely' do a job. If it is not safe to do, I let experts like YOU service them, thats all. Now, if theres a los, do it!

Randy... This thread has been filled with people trying to give advice and hope to someone that is having trouble. I see people get turned away all the time by DNSC installers that cop that union like, glass half empty attitude. Most all your responses in this thread have been giving tude over the ideas presented. All I am trying to say is that there is options...and even if DNSC can't provide one, perhaps a retailer or someone else can.

In most cases there's nothing unsafe about mounting to a rooftop or an antenna mast, provided it's done correctly. Heck, one could even go the extra mile to observe extra safety precautions while climbing the Antenna or ladder....correct? Now I understand DNSC has some rules and limitations, but look beyond the DNSC labor pool and make an alternate servicer suggestion to the person being told no. Yes it may cost him some $$, but someone who really wants to be a customer shouldn't be turned away simply cause the work is out of the scope of normal DNSC work....

If all fails and LOS is still unobtainable, at least all options were presented... and it is about helping this guy right?

Peace,
Jason

.

#33 OFFLINE   585960

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:03 PM

:icon_peac First and formost, I am not here for riling anyone up. My bottom line approach has nothing to do with DNSC although I absolutely will follow their guidelines when it comes to safety. As to putting dishes up in trees, atop of 20 - 30' antenna towers, I can't reccomend that to anybody with safety in mind. But if it takes a tree farm to get up to 4 satellites going, then so be it. Miracle workers we are not, but hard workers we are, and if theres a safe and gauranteed LOS for a customer I always try my best. All I can say on this one is, the further back and away from the trees you are, the better to shoot over.

#34 OFFLINE   Richard King

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 04:42 PM

Back in the old days, when I was a satellite dealer doing big dish installs, I did MANY installations that other dealers said couldn't be done. It sometimes took some creative thinking, it sometimes took guts, but I and my partners got the job done. Here's a sample of creative thinking: http://www.pbase.com.../image/74405425 Remember, these dishes had to cover a very large swath of the sky, not like the simple installations of today. You can see a bunch of "creative thinking" installtions here: http://www.pbase.com...stalls&page=all That's a 10' diameter dish sitting on the pole in the first picture.
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#35 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 06:24 PM

I'd rather have a qualified and experienced installer tell me what is "safe" than a insurance company's lawyer. If Charlie Ergen were writing DNSC's safety rules they would likely allow for more creativity than his company's lawyers will allow. :)

I have a really creative dish installing friend that has not lost any fingers, limbs or cash to his creative installs. Just making customers happy! :D

#36 OFFLINE   BNUMM

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 09:18 PM

There are many people putting restrictions on what can be done. OSHA and Liability Insurance companies are just two.

#37 OFFLINE   HDTVFanAtic

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Posted 02 June 2007 - 11:26 PM

Thanks for all of the responses, guys... you're giving me hope! I actually went in the back yard last night and looked around. I have a real hope that a pole-mounted dish in the southwest corner of the backyard will work.

At that point there is a completely clear sight-line to the south and south-southwest.


You have some decent elevation on the key birds - so what really matters is how far back you are from the trees to be able to get a shot over them. With the 22.5 degree offset, it might look as though the dish is pointed right at the trees, but the signal can come in over top of them. Again, its really a matter of the distance you can put between the dish and the top of the trees.

                         Tulsa, OK 74146
           Latitude 36° 6.558'N Longitude 95° 51.036'W

                         Sat Name Sat Lng Az(t) Az(m)   El  Skew
----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> NOTE: Calculate Skew values from 90 degrees West <<<<<<<
>>>>>>> Remember most DBS Dishes have 22.5 Degree offset <<<<<<<
                                 
                                 
                                
             EchoStar 3/Rainbow 1   61.5W 130.8 126.6 34.7 -37.7
                  EchoStar 6/8/10  110.0W 203.2 199.0 45.5  18.5
                 DISH 500 110/119  114.5W 209.8 205.6 43.7  23.7
                    EchoStar 7/7S  119.0W 216.0 211.8 41.5  28.3
                        DISH 1000  119.5W 216.6 212.4 41.2  28.8
                       EchoStar 9  121.0W 218.5 214.4 40.4  30.2
                 DISH 500 119/129  124.0W 222.2 218.1 38.6  32.9
                       EchoStar 5  129.0W 227.9 223.8 35.5  36.9
            EchoStar 1/EchoStar 2  148.0W 245.4 241.2 21.6  47.3
                       EchoStar 4  157.0W 252.0 247.8 14.5  50.2
                                 


#38 OFFLINE   Richard King

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 05:42 AM

With those elevations I really can't believe there isn't a spot in the yard or on the house where it will work unless the whole yard is literally covered by trees. I bet the guy coming out Tuesday finds a good spot. Remember that with a 40' tree and an elevation of 45 degrees you only need to be 40' away from the tree, on the ground, to clear the tree. If you find a spot 20' up in the air (on the roof?) you can cut that distance to 20'.
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#39 OFFLINE   Mike500

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 07:19 AM

In very very difficult line of sight situations, nothing beats a surveyor's transit. They are much more accurate in finding clearance between trees and assure that the dish will be aimed into the center of the opening.

A hand held compass works, but even the steadiest hand sighting can be off by several degrees. Moving from azimuth to altitude also results in errors. A transit locked onto a tripod allows the user to actually see the satellite position in the sky for a particular point on the ground.

It has been years since I did land surveying, but I can still do accurate azimuth and altitude sightings.

I recently acquired this Craftsman electronic clinometer and laser level from Sears.

http://www.sears.com...UseBVCookie=Yes


At $29.99 with the Carftsman Club card, it is by far, the best I've used yet. I've mounted it on a camera tripod and used it to precisely sight elevation. A Silva compass placed on another place on the tripod away from iron or steel allows you to find azmuth.

If you use this tool at night, obstructions of the line of sight will show up on the obstruction with a red dot from the laser. Swing the tripod horizontally will allow you to determine the clearance of the open line of sight from the obstruction.

#40 OFFLINE   Richard King

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Posted 03 June 2007 - 09:04 AM

I like that Sears tool. I used to use one of these: http://www.gourmet-e...ts/sat_ext.html to site in the whole arc for c/ku band installs. Ir worked very well for it's intended purposes. Each is made for an area of about 100 mile radius.
The Pump Don't Work 'cause the Vandals Took the Handles.




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