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Sky Angel will NOT honor lifetime for IPTV


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#21 OFFLINE   sansha

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 08:47 AM

There are lifetime subs that have looked at the big picture ... they paid X dollars and got Y years of service ... and X divided by Y was a bargain. SkyAngel stopped selling the "lifetime" subscriptions a few years ago ... only the final signups would be possibly have paid more for "lifetime" than if they just bought and renewed an annual subscription.

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post and image of the contract.

E3 is at end of life ... at last report it was 60% disabled and able to cover only 79% of it's assignment. It is on it's deathbed. At least SkyAngel didn't wait until it died to make other plans.




You say "lifetime" as if it were some questionable term the subscribers are trying to twist. The subscribers didn't make that term. SkyAngel did. If they didn't want to characterize it as lifetime, or for the customer to take it as that, they should not have called it that.

As for whether the subscribers got their $$ worth if they had paid regular rates, some did, some didn't. But that's not the point. Subscribers paid up front, (and when I joined it was i think $5 a month) so that Sky Angel could use our $$ to build their DBS distribution system.

Sky Angel isn't going out of business. Nor is the satellite dead. They are just selling the transponders to get into the IPTV business here in the US. And leaving the customer base high and dry who supported them to deliver by DBS.

They ought to at the very least sign up the lifetime subbers to IPTV AS LONG AS E3 is functioning for E*. IMHO, they ought to sign them up permanently, but the the former would be the minimum they ought to do. Even that wouldn't do much good for most people, but it would at least be an attempt to make some kind of restitution for what they were contractually supposed to provide by DBS.

As for Skyangel not waiting till E3 died, for those people who have no ability to get broadband, or find it too expensive, or who are lifetime subbers who Sky angel is apparently dumping, it would have been far better for all those people -- I'm suspecting the majority of their subscribers -- if they had waited till E3 had died. At least the customers would have received their contracted service until that point. And at least Sky angel would have fulfilled the terms of that contract. The reason Sky angel is not doing that is that presumably they want the money from the transponder sale. Interesting that to Skyangel E3 is always dead when they talk to their customers, but not dead when they sell the transponders to E* or talk to the FCC.

Truthfully it sounds damn immoral to me, to take money on a contract to deliver one thing, and then dump those people and what they funded and sell it and take those funds to fund another project. When you raise money, you're supposed to spend it on what it was solicited for. When you sell a service, you are supposed to provide it, not say, oh, I think I can make more $$ here, so let me sell that and buy something else and charge you again for what you already bought.

Whether that is illegal or not is for lawyers to decide,and the customer never wins in those things. But for the ordinary person, who was sold a lifetime sub for a satellite as long as the satellite was up there and Sky angel was in business, that customer has a right to feel taken. There is no more DBS service not because E3 is dead but only because Sky angel CHOSE NOT TO PROVIDE IT. Because they chose to welch on their contracts, sell what was needed to deliver on them, take the money and run to set up another venue. Not because E3 is dead or they are out of business.

It seems from your email you are trying to paint the *subscriber* as greedy, trying to get more than their subscription was supposed to pay for and sky angel as being honorable in trying to find other alternatives. It's bad enough to be welched on by sky angel -- and even worse that they haven't even told their customers yet. If Sky Angel execs are lurking on the board, it's disgraceful they haven't spoken up to answer some of the questions and concerns posted here by customers whose funds help build their company and pay their salaries. And if customers are upset, and sky angel execs were treated badly here in the past, perhaps the blame should be put squarely where it belongs and the execs deserved it.

Trying to turn the blame and the guilt on the wronged consumer, trying to paint the lifetime subscriber as greedy, rather than the company that is selling Peter to buy Paul, may work on some, but it just doesn't work on me.

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#22 OFFLINE   sansha

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 09:45 AM

That is the second time you have posted that address and contact info and that is enough. We don't run campaigns against companies here at DBSTalk. We can openly discuss their shortcomings, but please ... no causes!

As far as Ms. Christopher, her login has been used to visit DBSTalk within the past month ... she is welcome to answer any questions in any thread that she wishes to participate in ... considering the response to her last posts (in 2004) I do not expect a reply.

Anyone who can provide a clean copy of the "lifetime" agreement is encouraged to post it.


Gee, how many times have I seen ceo@echostar.com posted as an email to send with questions or complaints, without anyone's fingers ever getting rapped for doing it. You seem awfully protective of SkyAngel. Why are they regarded as -- dare I say it -- sacrosanct?

So sorry that Ms. Christopher is content to lurk and unwilling to address her subscriber's concerns. She doesn't have to address them here, but they ought to be addressed somewhere. I posted a question on their website weeks ago without any reply. As for the alleged drubbing she supposedly got in 2004, she is an adult, presumably a corp exec, and ought to be able to handle the heat her company has created for itself.

#23 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 27 June 2007 - 03:24 PM

Interesting that to Skyangel E3 is always dead when they talk to their customers, but not dead when they sell the transponders to E* or talk to the FCC.

SkyAngel is not selling E3 or transponders on E3. They can't. SkyAngel owns no transponders to sell ... so they have made NO SUCH REPRESENTATION to the FCC. The request of the FCC is not to transfer ownership of E3, it is for the transfer of the LICENSES SkyAngel owns at 61.5°. Licenses that are useless unless one has a working satellite to broadcast on.

Trying to turn the blame and the guilt on the wronged consumer, trying to paint the lifetime subscriber as greedy, rather than the company that is selling Peter to buy Paul, may work on some, but it just doesn't work on me.

That is not my intent (although I still would like to see the contract instead of representations of what people believe it said). I don't see "lifetime" (as a defined category) subscribers as greedy ... I was just point out that MANY feel that their money was well spent.

As far as personal feelings toward SkyAngel for whether or not those subscribers got ripped off or not, I believe those who are less annoyed saw their "lifetime" subscriptions as a gift for the ministry's benefit and those who remain annoyed saw their subscription as buying something for their own benefit.

Gee, how many times have I seen ceo@echostar.com posted as an email to send with questions or complaints, without anyone's fingers ever getting rapped for doing it. You seem awfully protective of SkyAngel. Why are they regarded as -- dare I say it -- sacrosanct?

The ceo address is not anyone's personal address. It is a department within the company that handles complaints.

It is the personal addresses and internal phone numbers that are delt with ... in all forums. No special protection of SkyAngel. Just forum policy.
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#24 OFFLINE   sansha

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 06:47 AM

SkyAngel is not selling E3 or transponders on E3. They can't. SkyAngel owns no transponders to sell ... so they have made NO SUCH REPRESENTATION to the FCC. The request of the FCC is not to transfer ownership of E3, it is for the transfer of the LICENSES SkyAngel owns at 61.5°. Licenses that are useless unless one has a working satellite to broadcast on.

That is not my intent (although I still would like to see the contract instead of representations of what people believe it said). I don't see "lifetime" (as a defined category) subscribers as greedy ... I was just point out that MANY feel that their money was well spent.

As far as personal feelings toward SkyAngel for whether or not those subscribers got ripped off or not, I believe those who are less annoyed saw their "lifetime" subscriptions as a gift for the ministry's benefit and those who remain annoyed saw their subscription as buying something for their own benefit.

The ceo address is not anyone's personal address. It is a department within the company that handles complaints.

It is the personal addresses and internal phone numbers that are delt with ... in all forums. No special protection of SkyAngel. Just forum policy.



So you're saying that Sky Angel is letting E* acquire the transponder licenses for free? I doubt that. That's the point, not splitting hairs over whether I used the sbortcut transponder or the full transponder license in a post. And E3 is still working. I'm so tired of hearing sky angel claim that E3 isn't working. I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise skyangel would have nothing to sell back to e*. Yes it is getting some age on it and will eventually fail. But in fact when I got the lifetime membership Sky Angel said E3 had a lifetime of 12-14 years and had transponders reserved for backups. And that they also would be transferring their DBS business to a new satellite before the end of E3's working life. Nothing about the lifetime subscriptions ending with E3 or before E3. The deal was that the subscription was a lifetime one.

Interesting how you want to split hairs on everything else but when it comes down to what Sky angel was contracted to deliver, when the hair splitting doesn't work, you say the subscription should now be regarded as a gift and not a fee for services due.

The email address previously listed was not a personal/home email -- it was a sky angel business address. I don't see where the stricture applies.

I don't care all that much about sky angel. I'm waiting for the coolsat 8100 before I get an FTA setup. But I just find this whole situation of Sky angel dumping their lifetime subbers reprehensible. And even more disgusting the wordsmithing trying to parse out some moral high ground for them to justify it. The honorable thing to do is to meet their existing commitments however they can, instead of welching on them, selling everythign they can, taking the funds and running to set up a new production company.

#25 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 09:20 AM

So you're saying that Sky Angel is letting E* acquire the transponder licenses for free?

No. I'm saying that your claim that SkyAngel is selling transponders on E3 is false. I'm saying that your claim that SkyAngel has made different representations to the public and the FCC is false.

Financial details were not disclosed on how much or even IF SkyAngel is being paid for the licenses.

And E3 is still working. I'm so tired of hearing sky angel claim that E3 isn't working.

E3 is working for the moment. It will not be working much longer - a couple of years but it honestly is NOT at full strength and if it were not for E*'s purchase of R1 E* would be in more serious trouble.

I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise skyangel would have nothing to sell back to e*.

The HD package at 61.5 is not on E3. Want to try that statement again?

Yes it is getting some age on it and will eventually fail. But in fact when I got the lifetime membership Sky Angel said E3 had a lifetime of 12-14 years and had transponders reserved for backups.

Was that in 1996? 1997? The situation has changed. HALF of the transponders on E3 died before 2006. E3 started out with 44 and lost 22 prior to 2006. With the additional failures in 2006 E3 is down to 40% --- Thanks to the redundancy and R1/E12 E3 can cover 79% of it's assignment with only 40% of it's initial capacity. E3 is failing.

And that they also would be transferring their DBS business to a new satellite before the end of E3's working life. Nothing about the lifetime subscriptions ending with E3 or before E3. The deal was that the subscription was a lifetime one.

Got that in print? I've asked too many times to ask again.

The email address previously listed was not a personal/home email -- it was a sky angel business address. I don't see where the stricture applies.

Personal addresses at work are normally not permitted. If you have nay more questions send a PM ... that is forum business and I'm not here to debate that in public. I've already explained it enough.
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#26 ONLINE   Michael P

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 03:36 PM

I get the HD package on 61.5 as well as many public interest channels on 61.5 and E3 is still working just fine -- otherwise sky angel would have nothing to sell back to e*.

You don't understand the concept of a license? You can have a valid driver's license but not own a car. Someone in that circumstance could lease or rent a car, and that's just what Sky Angel is doing. If E3 fell out of the sky tomorrow, Sky Angel's licenses at 61.5 would still be worth the same as they are today. The licenses at 61.5 could be used on the former Rainbow satellite by E*, but not by SA unless SA and E* come to a new agreement. The current agreement between SA and E* ends when E3 dies. At that time all SA will have are the licenses but no satellite to use them.
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#27 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 09:27 PM

Sky Angel is picking and choosing which parts of the LIFETIME agreement they want to honor. for example they frequently quote "LlIFETIME of SATELLITE" while they IGNORE several key points such as LAUNCHING satellite in 2002, SUBSCRIBER/SPOUSE lifetime etc. I agree with you, the ministry would hav been better served by either launching a new satellite as promised or at least continuing to broadcast on DBS for the REAL life of the satellite (it is still working!)

if you go back through old press releases you find lots of tidbits of info!


The following brings up a point that may have a more wide spread affect. what happens to these ministries? the prisons, hospitals etc who now get DBS?

This lifted from an SA news release in 2004, note that lifetime subscribers are not mentioned they may indeed have came as a surprise to Rob.


---Quote---
Dominion appreciates the wide support from within the Christian community during this extremely trying time. The mission and purpose of Sky Angel is to develop a worldwide multi-channel, high-power direct broadcast satellite broadcasting system for spreading the Gospel free of secular control, as distinct from every other commercial-secular cable or satellite system. Because Sky Angel exists, families can receive wholesome, Christ-centered programming without being forced to receive in their homes or to support television programming that is hostile to or in conflict with their Christian values. Sky Angel also serves as a valuable evangelistic tool with the multi-channel service being delivered, in some cases at no charge, into prisons, homeless shelters, substance abuse facilities, hospitals, nursing homes, colleges and more; Sky Angel’s Angel One channel, with a special emphasis on carrying a variety of ministries, large and small, that are focused on evangelizing and ministering to lost and hurting people, is also available free of charge on the DISH Network.

As the only Christian organization in the world licensed by any government to operate a high-power satellite system, Sky Angel is a valuable tool for the Church to move in unity, to evangelize the lost, and to equip the body of Christ to fulfill the Great Commission, so it is essential to defend and protect the vision given for Sky Angel by holding accountable those who try to bring harm to this ministry.

Dominion will continue to press forward with its plans to provide the Gospel to every nation in the world through a Christian-owned and -controlled satellite television delivery system in obedience to the vision the Lord gave for the Sky Angel ministry 24 years ago.

SKY ANGEL MISSION AND PURPOSE
From the very beginning, 24 years ago, when God placed a call on Robert W. Johnson Sr.'s life to create what today remains the world's only Christian Direct Broadcast Satellite “DBS” platform, our mission has never changed. Through the Lord's revelation, we knew then as we know today that the only method of assuring that the Gospel could be spread to the entire world — uninterrupted and unimpeded by geographic barriers, land lines and cables, and ever-changing, often hostile political boundaries — was via high-powered, wireless deep-space satellites owned and controlled by Christians totally committed to exclusively using this technology as a true instrument of helping to fulfill the "Great Commission." The satellite itself is then the platform — the "Angel in the Sky" — for the ministers, preachers and teachers of our age to first reach and disciple America and then to reach the most unreachable of God's lost children in the world.

There are only four DBS satellite services in America today: Sky Angel, DirecTV, DISH Network, and Voom Network. Sky Angel is the only one devoted exclusively to airing Christian and wholesome family television and radio programming. As the only Christian-owned and -controlled satellite television and radio platform licensed by the government in the world, we are able today to beam 20 television channels and 16 radio channels of Christian programming 24 hours a day across North America.

We do this all for our programmers by providing no-cost DBS airtime and for the body of Christ where individual homes, churches, businesses and more pay a modest monthly or annual subscription fee to help support, strengthen and grow the Sky Angel system. When we go international, many Sky Angel's radio and television signals will be "free-to-air" overseas utilizing a very low-cost DBS receiving system and small dish so that those who have never had the benefit of receiving Christ-centered TV or radio programming will be able to in even the most unreachable areas of the world.

Presently, Sky Angel's powerful television and radio signals are capable of being received virtually anywhere in North America. It would be impossible today for any Christian ministry to acquire enough television stations or cable systems capable of reaching the entire U.S. population. This impossibility has been overcome by Sky Angel's multi-channel television and radio channel signals that now cover virtually all of North America.

We're excited! We're humbled by the opportunity ahead. And we rejoice in being able to share this great endeavor with those who have been called and anointed to spread God's Word and use this remarkable technology that He has placed in our hands.

Therefore, protecting this God-ordained project from those who may be blinded to God's ordained scope, mission and purpose for Sky Angel, and who would bring it harm willingly or unwillingly, is the only reason this lawsuit was filed against EchoStar.
---End Quote---


#28 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 28 June 2007 - 10:49 PM

Probably not fair to go too far back (they are all labeled "ARCHIVED PRESS RELEASE. THIS PRESS RELEASE MAY CONTAIN DATED INFORMATION THAT IS NO LONGER ACCURATE OR CURRENT.") but anyways:

June 1, 2002
Because the Lord has established SKY ANGEL, Christian religious broadcasters will always have a satellite communications platform just for their programming that virtually any home, business, church, or school in the U.S. can access with just a small 18-inch satellite dish. Also, the 33 Christ-centered television and radio channel programmers that Sky Angel carries all receive no-cost air time on SKY ANGEL, allowing them to put the tithes and offerings given to them into producing more targeted programs that will reach larger audiences with the Gospel.

source

What the Lord giveth, Jr giveth away?

August 14, 2003
Dominion Video Satellite, Inc., owner and operator of the Sky Angel nationwide direct-to-home Christ-centered satellite television service, has officially taken ownership of 23 acres off Interstate 75, northeast of the intersection of CR 951 and Davis Blvd. in Collier County, Florida, where it plans to construct its permanent uplink facility and international headquarter offices.

The project will be constructed in three phases. Construction of Phase I, which will comprise the company’s 47,000-square-foot technical center and transmission and receiving satellite dish antennas, is scheduled to commence the first half of 2004. Phase II will consist of two 15,000-square-foot studios, a 20,000-square-foot reception facility and 125,000 square feet of administrative offices. Phase III will comprise a 50,000-square-foot international programmer lodging facility and a 30,000-square-foot convention center.

source

Plans that have not quite made it to reality. I don't see an uplink center there ... Arial Photo

Life changes. They did start construction on an uplink, but it is in Cleveland, TN (probably better weather there).
http://www.skyangel....-54FFCF0&id=119
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#29 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 29 June 2007 - 10:45 PM

June 1, 2002
Because the Lord has established SKY ANGEL, Christian religious broadcasters will always have a satellite communications platform just for their programming that virtually any home, business, church, or school in the U.S. can access with just a small 18-inch satellite dish.


so what, did the LORD change his mind here or is sky angel no longer following the Lords leading?

#30 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 30 June 2007 - 11:23 AM

There should have been a big caveat on that "virtually every home" statement ... since 61.5° is not easy to get from the west coast and many homes (such as apartments and city folk) have a hard time seeing satellite signals at all.

When I see statements like that I imagine God saying "why are you dragging me into this?" Robert W. Johnson established Sky Angel, and Jr is unestablishing it (as a satellite service). God seems to have had a minor role as a marketing tool and occasional subject matter for the channels.

If the Lord established Sky Angel why didn't He provide them with an angel in the sky ... a satellite of their own ... and enough funds that they could operate like Glorystar --- Free-to-air delivery to everyone who could see the satellite instead of a paid service to "customers" within the US. DBS was a good choice for signal strength and dish size issues, but "by subscription" is not the way to spread the gospel. It is like taking the offering at the front door of the church and turning away those who don't make a donation.

So the Lord establishing Sky Angel is just so much "Lord speak" ... where those who call themselves Christians (as opposed to those who are called Christians by others) invoke God to make their efforts appear to be more important than they are.

#31 OFFLINE   abesbirthday

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 01:44 PM

The "lifetime" contract allows you to use the SkyAngel DBS service for the rest of your life or the life of the surviving spouse. Within the next year there will be no more SkyAngel DBS service. If you can find in the contract where they agreed to provide channels beyond the life of the satellite feel free to scan and post an image of the contract.


This is my first post so I'm not familiar with all that's been being said about SA. What I have to say may be irrelevant and if so, sorry about that. What I'd like to say is that I called SA earlier this week and asked if as a Lifetime subscriber, would my subscription be valid with the upcoming new method of Internet delivery. Of course I was told it would not. I then asked if SA would send me a copy of my contract. The lady said she couldn't promise SA could do that but she did take down my name and address....although I'm not holding my breath until I get it because it didn't sound real hopeful that I'd be getting a copy.
Well, guess what? Later that evening I happened to be looking through an old folder in my desk and found the "terms and conditions of the lifetime subscription" and as best as I can tell it does NOT say for the lifetime of the satellite itself, but for the lifetime of Dominion Sky Angel. Unless SA goes out of business and/or changes their name, it seems as though my lifetime subscription should be valid regardless of how I receive SA programming. I'm attaching a copy of the "Terms & Conditions" as a pdf file. Am I mistaken in my interpretation?

Attached Files



#32 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 02:48 PM

You may have just hit the jackpot for yourself and other lifetime members. the problem has been that most lifetime members do not even have a copy of the agreement. If they signed up on the phone SA never sent them. also there are several different versions floating around. I don't think sky angel has copies of who signed what. I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............

Of course, skyangel will probably get around this as well by a name change or something :( thanks for posting the info!

#33 OFFLINE   abesbirthday

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 04:08 PM

I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............


It's hard to imagine why in the world SA is treating their base of support in the manner they are? Seems like the cost of ill-will and hard feelings would be much more costly to SA in the long run rather than to just go ahead and switch over the lifetimers to IPTV.
I've been a huge proponent of SA for a decade and I want it to succeed; however, with the amount of hard feelings this switch over seems to be generating, I'm concerned it may not. Frankly, I think the best thing SA could do is to send their lifetimers a letter saying their initial decision to end the agreement with lifetimers was not well thought out, and with further thought, the lifetime subscriptions would be brought over to IPTV when the switch is made.
How hard would that be to do?
I wish Sky Angel well but they're sure making it hard.

#34 OFFLINE   Jashobeam

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Posted 08 December 2007 - 04:18 PM

You may have just hit the jackpot for yourself and other lifetime members. the problem has been that most lifetime members do not even have a copy of the agreement. If they signed up on the phone SA never sent them. also there are several different versions floating around. I don't think sky angel has copies of who signed what. I went all the way to the VP and asked for a copy of my agreement which she refused to send. Instead she told me to send her what I had............

Of course, skyangel will probably get around this as well by a name change or something :( thanks for posting the info!



Check #7 on that terms and conditions sheet. It says the agreement can be changed at any time w/out notice.

#35 OFFLINE   BusyMommyof8

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 06:04 AM

The contract I have is an earlier version of the one posted by Abesbirthday and states the same but in greater detail and also adds the provision "for the life of the satelites" with an added assurance that they are in the process of adding additional satellite capabilities. Last I heard the satellites were still in the air but Sky Angel gave/sold/traded them to Dish.
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#36 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 10:25 AM

thats been the argument of some. sky angel violated the contract when they did not fuflfill their end to launch the new satellite. 2nd of all the satellite is still working dspite their allegations that it is "dying"
If you can post it as an attachment it would be good to have another to compare

#37 OFFLINE   daddy3may2005

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 12:26 AM

Either way, not sure if anyone has noticed, however Dominion Sky Angel is the "Satellite" side of their business. If you look at the IPTV side, they go by Sky Angel LLC.

Just an observation :)

#38 OFFLINE   Jashobeam

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:33 PM

Their production company is also LLC.

#39 OFFLINE   quiverof8

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:42 PM

If I am not mistaken earlier pamphlets from skyangel had advertised as Dominion. had predicted at that time a name change to avoid potential lawsuits. they might legally get away with this but morally its wrong to change the name in order to get out of ts lifetime contracts!

#40 OFFLINE   James Long

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Posted 30 December 2007 - 04:47 PM

On a moral level, the most we can do is refuse to do business with them.
It is up to higher powers to judge them and punish them on a higher level.




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