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Proposed DLB Sticky: Dual Live Buffers (DLB) Catch All Thread


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#1 OFFLINE   jaywdetroit

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 10:45 AM

As it's been suggested, I am proposing this thread be used as a catch all for all of our DLB rants.

First off a definition for those of you who do not know what DLB is referring too.

Dual Live Buffers (DLB): The ability to change back and forth between two live TV buffers. On TIVO, this was accomplished by pressing the Live TV button or the channel change button from the INFO screen. Currently, the HR20 does not have this feature despite the fact that it does have DUAL TUNERS. This feature is especially popular with Sports enthusiasts, who like to pause one game, and flip the tuner over to the other game. Pause that game, and flip back.

According to Que's Poll: http://www.dbstalk.c...ead.php?t=62118
75% of DBSTalk readers want this feature included on the HR20.

So many people are passionate about this topic, that this sticky thread has been created to give everyone a place to state their case on DLB.

Some guidelines: D* knows full well that "we" want DLB badly on the HR20. I encourage EVERYONE who wants DLB to post their reasons in this thread. I encourage EVERYONE to avoid creating NEW DLB threads in this forum. If you want to discuss DLB, this thread is the place to do it.

Perhaps we can either Sticky Que's Poll, or merge it, or simply reference it here. But I think having an initial post such as this one, with an explanation of where we are at, and where we have been is important.

If you are new to DBSTalk, welcome! Are you interested in DLB? Welcome!

DLB has been discussed and discussed at length in the HR20 forum. There is a large vocal group of us here, that want D* to include it in the HR20. Over the past 6 months or so, we have come to realize D* doesn't have it in the plans in the short term. And many of us, have stopped creating new threads on the subject as we realize D* knows we want it at this point and screaming about it isn't going to change their thinking on the subject.

So please, if you want to add your story, or 2 cents, or your rant on DLB to the forum, do it here in this thread. All we ask is that you do so in such a way as to not incite a riot. We want to keep this discussion civil and we want to work WITH D* to get the feature added, not against them.

For those of you who continue to show up in the DLB threads to tell us we are beating a dead horse, and to complain about all the threads on the subject, I hope you will welcome this one, single thread on the subject and avoid reading further if this topic does not interest you.
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#2 OFFLINE   waynebtx

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 10:53 AM

Yes Yes Yes, I know a lot want the DLB but there should be one thread . I have never had a dvr before the HR20 so have never used the DLB i dont watch sports ans have never had a reason to want DLB if it comes maybe i will use it maybe not. But one thread to search for information sure would be nice.

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#3 OFFLINE   Michael D'Angelo

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:47 AM

Jayw I agree and would also like to see a MOD make this thread a sticky to cut down on all of the DLB threads. DIRECTV knows that just about everyone would like to have DLB. By not having DLB it has caused some people to leave DIRECTV all together. Some people refuse to get a HR20 because of it and some did get a HR20 but are not happy because of it. So with one thread like this and everyone voicing there opinions about it here maybe it will help. Hopefully we can keep the nasty post out and just have post of the reason's people would really like it added.

As far as myself goes with DLB. I have posted a few times that I did not care about DLB. I was a long time TiVo user and actually did not know it had it or what it was. Dumb me I guess. At the time I had TiVo I did not know about DBStalk and I am not a person who reads manuals. But after reading many threads and post over the last 10 months I now know what it is and I would also like to see DLB added to the HR20 and the R15 if possible. It will not kill me if it never gets added but I would like to see it added. So anyway I just wanted to add my 2 cents even though it does not account for much.

#4 OFFLINE   jheda

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 11:57 AM

Tears are in my eyes....Seriously, this is the best solution IMHO...and whether DLB happens or not, this gives us a voice in the least obtrusive fashion.....

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#5 OFFLINE   vankai

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 12:01 PM

Can we vote for DLB-Echelon members?

#6 OFFLINE   cygnusloop

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 12:41 PM

Great idea, JayW! Please, mods, make this a sticky.

I would like to preempt all those that will suggest that recording two programs is the same thing as DLB. IMHO, it is absolutely not the same thing.

As the leader in sports television, D* should realize how important DLB is to sports fans. Many sporting events are scheduled for several hours, sometimes, as in the case of some MLB EI games, as long as 6 hours.

This is where I think that the "record both" argument breaks down. Say you want to keep up with two baseball games, that is 12 hours that will be wiped from your hard drive the second you press record on both channels. That's 40% of available disk space! To me, that is an unacceptable situation. With DLB, that disk usage would be 0%. My wife's CSI's are still there, and my kids Blues Clues are still there.

I realize that there are easy ways to increase your hard drive space, but I shouldn't have to spend several hundred dollars to enjoy the programming that I am already paying good money to receive.

But, it's not just sports. Take today's broadcast of the Live Earth concerts, which airs for 12 hours (in two blocks) on UHD. I would like to anchor a tuner to keep up with it throughout the day, zipping around the buffer to find some performers I'm interested in, while watching other things. Again, recording this 12 hours of programming is just not a good option.

Recording two programs is a workaround, just a very poor workaround. So, please, D*, whatever your reasons were for not including DLB in the original design of the HR20, I respectfully ask you to reconsider. Thanks for listening.

#7 OFFLINE   jaywdetroit

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 12:53 PM

Great idea, JayW!


Thank you, but the idea was not mine. I saw someone suggest it Que's thread, and JHEDA suggested it last. I simply took the initiative.
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#8 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 01:09 PM

According to Que's Poll: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118
75% of DBSTalk readers want this feature included on the HR20.

While this may be what the poll shows, it doesn't always mean 75% of everybody.

I'm not going to hinder those that want it.
It's your right.
There are some that just don't care though.

Since this is a well known "issue", many of us just ignore the topic.

Call, email DirecTV and let them know.

Most of us here already know your wants and look at this as::beatdeadhorse:
A.K.A VOS

#9 OFFLINE   LR308er

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 01:17 PM

I still say I can accomplish the same thing with the record button, but if you guys want it, and it

1. doesn't take away from free disk space
2. doesn't reduce the current buffer
3. doesn't add more heat or load to the system

then I don't care if you win the campaign and get it.
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#10 OFFLINE   DblD_Indy

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 01:23 PM

I vote ok on this idea.
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#11 OFFLINE   Halo

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 01:34 PM

Aside from a few persistent bugs I really like the HR20, but I will never give it an "A" grade until it has dual live buffers. Yeah, it's that important to me.

Even the current workaround is tedious. Recording two programs works but you CAN'T use the PREV channel button to toggle between the two programs. One of them always defaults to LIVE.
What is the purpose of the Single Live Buffer if it doesn't even remember the Pause Point? Do the developers really believe that the ideal scenario is to force the user to Rewind back to the point they left off?
Sure, if you want to toggle back and forth you can go into the Playlist every time and select the other program. Tedious and unnecessary. User unfriendliness like that needs to be fixed.

#12 OFFLINE   jheda

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 01:40 PM

I agree VOS everything you say is true. May i add:
[quote name='veryoldschool']According to Que's Poll: http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?t=62118

75% of DBSTalk readers want this feature included on the HR20.

true.

"While this may be what the poll shows, it doesn't always mean 75% of everybody."

True. It may be more than 75%

I'm not going to hinder those that want it.
It's your right.


Knowing your posts, i know you mean that and its appreciated...

There are some that just don't care though.
Since this is a well known "issue", many of us just ignore the topic.

Agree; and some dont care about captions, and others about VOD, or pictures and music on a DVR. But we all defend everyones right to have their wish, knowing it makes the hr20 a better unit (the bottom line, isnt it?)



[B]Call, email DirecTV and let them know.[/B]

Thus the idea behind making this a stickie, so people continue to, and newbies understand the issue and the appropriate remedies for their frustrations....

Most of us here already know your wants and look at this as::beatdeadhorse:[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I think as long as with 100% certainty D says yea or nay, we should express continuously that this feature is critical to the unit to make it the best DVR on the market. The idea of this thread though is none of us CE'ers want threads clogged, moderators annoyed or D* misundersatanding anyones passion. One thread would prevent that imho.

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#13 OFFLINE   Meklos

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 02:14 PM

I still say I can accomplish the same thing with the record button, but if you guys want it, and it

1. doesn't take away from free disk space
2. doesn't reduce the current buffer
3. doesn't add more heat or load to the system

then I don't care if you win the campaign and get it.


Fill your DVR up and then press record on a program that has a guide-indicated length of four hours. What does your DVR do? Magically invent four more hours of storage?

No, it deletes something to make space.

It's a poor workaround for a widely-sought-after feature.

#14 OFFLINE   Keeska

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 02:23 PM

Fill your DVR up and then press record on a program that has a guide-indicated length of four hours. What does your DVR do? Magically invent four more hours of storage?

No, it deletes something to make space.

It's a poor workaround for a widely-sought-after feature.

And with DLB it reduces the amount of space available for recording so you cannot record as many hours to begin with since it is reserving space for the 2nd buffer. I'd much rather have the space available for my use all of the time and not reserved for the 1% of the time I might want a 2nd buffer.

#15 OFFLINE   jheda

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 02:44 PM

if thats true, can you tell me how much space DLB eats up ????


And with DLB it reduces the amount of space available for recording so you cannot record as many hours to begin with since it is reserving space for the 2nd buffer. I'd much rather have the space available for my use all of the time and not reserved for the 1% of the time I might want a 2nd buffer.


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#16 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 02:55 PM

The one thing I want to know has D* ever said DLB is not possible? I don't remember reading in the various threads that DLB was not do-able. If there is a technical issue that can't be resolved, then this is all moot.

#17 OFFLINE   michael-reilly

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 03:03 PM

if thats true, can you tell me how much space DLB eats up ????

Same as any other recording. A buffer large enough to store 30 minutes of HD reduces the recording space by 30 minutes of HD. Remember both live buffers need to be stored someplace - they are not free.

#18 OFFLINE   Meklos

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 03:05 PM

Same as any other recording. A buffer large enough to store 30 minutes of HD reduces the recording space by 30 minutes of HD. Remember both live buffers need to be stored someplace - they are not free.


I think someone in another thread already proved that both buffers already exist, the storage for them both is already in the 'reserved' space... So no, they're not free, but they're already there.

Pressing record will record the entire program. The buffers use a first-in-first-out fixed amount of storage. Imagine trying to watch the World Cup or the Olympics and something else? Those are long long programs, and as soon as you press record on those, you'll lose quite a bit of space no matter what you actually watch.

All that, just to try to do a poor-man's implementation of a feature that's been around for years and years.

#19 OFFLINE   veryoldschool

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 03:06 PM

The idea of this thread though is none of us CE'ers want threads clogged, moderators annoyed or D* misunderstanding anyones passion. One thread would prevent that IMHO.

If this would really be the way it would work, you have my vote.
I do have my doubts though as every newbie that had a Tivo would [has] started a thread since before I came here.

I have nothing against DLB if it doesn't change anything in the way I use my DVR.
There is where it gets troublesome.
I like the 90 min buffer now. If there are two, then does that mean both are 90 min?
This could impact my recordings [not good].
Tivo buffers are how long? 30 or 60 min?
Everything requires trade-offs. While you may like "X", if it cost me "Y", that isn't right.

I post this only to try to show that it isn't always "that simple" a change. Having the option to select something isn't always the best solution either as every combination will need to be tested & debugged [more CE testing].

So if one sticky would clear up the forum, great! You have my vote. I'd guess that it would only add to the mods work to move every new thread into it, but I've been wrong before.
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#20 OFFLINE   raott

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Posted 07 July 2007 - 03:19 PM

I still say I can accomplish the same thing with the record button, but if you guys want it, and it

1. doesn't take away from free disk space
2. doesn't reduce the current buffer
3. doesn't add more heat or load to the system

then I don't care if you win the campaign and get it.



As has been discussed many, many times, that is a poor workaround.

For starters, pause does not stay paused, second it is at least two additional steps each time you do it, third, if you are hitting up against the wonderful 50/100 limit, its a 3rd additional step every time you use it to tell the DVR what to do because you just hit the 100 item limit. A real pain if you are attempting this while using Sunday Ticket you just dropped 300 dollars on.




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