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Working eSata Setups:


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2203 replies to this topic

#926 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 22 July 2009 - 10:43 AM

for what it's worth, I have a wd green 1 TB drive and the antec mx1 setup for my livingroom dvr (hr-2100 i think). It works, but I've had to get into the habit of rebooting my box and external drive once a week. If I don't the drive gets to a point where it freezes, studders, etc. not a big deal, but I've wondered ever since if I should not have gotten the green drive, and instead gotten the whatever is the equivilent non-green drive. I love the extra space, and would not want to give it up, but next time I think I'll try the non-green version, what ever that is. Green drives were meant to spin down as far as I know, and in a dvr, they most likely dont. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong?


I think you're correct. They don't stop or slow down at all as far as I know. Your problem might be the 100. I haven't seen many posts about those green drives doing what you are describing. I use Seagate drives in my Antecs and have no problems with them. Why don't you see if WD warranties those drives and get a replacement? WD will probably test the drive and send it back to you if it is OK. The Antec enclosures are remarkably stable and I've not seen any posts that I can recall where the Antec caused problems such as yours. If WD sends you the original drive back and says it is OK, I'd consider getting a replacement for that 100. Unfortunately, you'd probably get another 100 to replace it.

Rich

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#927 OFFLINE   bruce_bruce

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 12:47 AM

I just got my first HD DVR from DTV (upgraded from an old DTV Tivo box). I have an HR22-100 with software version 312.

I purchased the 2TB WD Caviar Green WD20EADS and Antex MX-1 based on recommendations from this forum. I hooked it up and it is working flawlessly. DVR recognized it instantly and formatted it. I have only recorded a handful of shows (both from Sat and VOD) but so far no problems. Thanks for the help!

Only complaint is that the DVR UI is sort of slow. :(

Bruce

#928 OFFLINE   TJStaar

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 12:20 PM

I have the same setup and experience so far as Bruce, with the exception that I'm running it on an HR20-100.

#929 OFFLINE   SuperZ06

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 12:09 PM

I have a HR21-100 and need to go the internal route. Any suggestions/limitations/drives to avoid ?

Would either of these be okay ?

Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB

TIA :)


Panasonic TH-50PX600U - HR21-100 1.5 GB HD Networked - R15-500 - D11-100

Resistance is not futile.
We refuse to be assimilated.
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#930 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 01:23 PM

I have a HR21-100 and need to go the internal route. Any suggestions/limitations/drives to avoid ?

Would either of these be okay ?

Western Digital Caviar Black WD1001FALS 1TB
Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EADS 1TB

TIA :)


Go for the green. Avoid the black one, seen bad reports on that. And do yourself a favor and get a larger HDD. At least a 1.5TB. I use the Seagate Barracuda 1.5s and they work perfectly. If you can afford the 2TB WD green drive, that will work well too.

Rich

#931 OFFLINE   SuperZ06

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 01:51 PM

Go for the green. Avoid the black one, seen bad reports on that. And do yourself a favor and get a larger HDD. At least a 1.5TB. I use the Seagate Barracuda 1.5s and they work perfectly. If you can afford the 2TB WD green drive, that will work well too.

Rich


Which would you recommend ?

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200 RPM
Seagate Barracuda LP ST31500541AS 1.5TB 5900 RPM

Thanks Rich !:)

Panasonic TH-50PX600U - HR21-100 1.5 GB HD Networked - R15-500 - D11-100

Resistance is not futile.
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#932 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 02:30 PM

Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200 RPM


That one. You should see a change in speed with that HDD too. The 20-700 I have mine in is the fastest HR I have. If you need more info, feel free to PM me.

Rich

#933 OFFLINE   SuperZ06

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 02:41 PM

That one. You should see a change in speed with that HDD too. The 20-700 I have mine in is the fastest HR I have. If you need more info, feel free to PM me.

Rich


Sorry I can't send PM's yet (5 count or better)

I looked on the Seagate website and found that all the links for this drive are no good.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200 RPM
Is this the drive that had the firmware problem ?

Panasonic TH-50PX600U - HR21-100 1.5 GB HD Networked - R15-500 - D11-100

Resistance is not futile.
We refuse to be assimilated.
-RJP

#934 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 03:39 PM

Sorry I can't send PM's yet (5 count or better)

I looked on the Seagate website and found that all the links for this drive are no good.
Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST31500341AS 1.5TB 7200 RPM
Is this the drive that had the firmware problem ?


Here's a link to the HDD I bought most recently.

That list that had all the problem HDDs is all about HDDs made in December of last year. All of my five Seagate HDDs are on that list (that'll give you an idea of what kind of luck I have), and all work perfectly.

I don't know what else to say. Seems like a fair price, altho I'm surprised to see that it hasn't come down. Amazon has a good return policy on stuff and I think Seagate warranties them for 3 or 5 years.

Rich

#935 OFFLINE   SuperZ06

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Posted 27 July 2009 - 03:48 PM

That list that had all the problem HDDs is all about HDDs made in December of last year. All of my five Seagate HDDs are on that list (that'll give you an idea of what kind of luck I have), and all work perfectly.

I don't know what else to say. Seems like a fair price, altho I'm surprised to see that it hasn't come down. Amazon has a good return policy on stuff and I think Seagate warranties them for 3 or 5 years.

Rich


Thanks for all the info !! Will post update after install.

Panasonic TH-50PX600U - HR21-100 1.5 GB HD Networked - R15-500 - D11-100

Resistance is not futile.
We refuse to be assimilated.
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#936 OFFLINE   wde00dbs

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 02:13 PM

Help please ...
I've tried about everything that is supposed to work in the "working esata" thread with no success.
I have an HR20-700, am computer savy, and am almost giving up at this point on adding an external drive.
First off all, I assume the EXACT sequence on a power up that formats the new drive is that the receiver goes through the "powering up" blue background screens and ends up taking quite a while formatting the drive before any of the white background "satellite" screens appear.
Please reply if the formating happens before any blue screens. Also, how long does the format take? I got one re-boot where nothing happened but I could here the internal drive seeking but a stethescope on the Seagate extreme heard no seeks. I waited 2 hours and gave up.
For the record, after a power up, I have red buttoned the 700 many times once the white background screens have appeared and still not found the drive.
Things I have tried:
a) Western Digital Green 1 terrabyte, 8 mb buffer WD10EAVS (manufactured March 09) + Horntek Hoover Enclosure (HD-308-SSC).
No success here and I would advise against buying the enclosure for anything else since it's fans could be heard over my HR20-700!
B) Same drive plus Antec MX-1 enclosure. HR-20-700 refused to use it even with many power ups and also red button resets.
c) 1500 Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme with both quality esata 1 meter cable and the Antec cable. Tried several full power ups and also red button resets when the white background screens came up.

Any thoughts or other things to try? The only thing I see is that I haven't used the DBS recommended esata cable but people using the MX-1 seem to work with the Antec cable. I just viewed the esata connector on the HR20-700 and it looks to be OK.

One more thought - do you think the new releases of D* software are getting more picky so we will have to buy the "approved" unsupported drives? I would think this hard to do since drive recognition code is usually hardwired into the unit.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts ...

Edited by wde00dbs, 06 August 2009 - 06:46 PM.
Found unattached cable so disks probably OK.

D* since they opened shop ...
Slim style AT9 Dish
HR20-700->Slingbox->RPbPr->Panasonic PT-52LCX66
(with broken Seagate 1.5 Xtreme external drive)
HR21 -> HDMI -> Same TV
H20-->Component-->Olevia LT23HVX

#937 OFFLINE   dettxw

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 03:29 PM

Help please ...
I've tried about everything that is supposed to work in the "working esata" thread with no success.
I have an HR20-700, am computer savy, and am almost giving up at this point on adding an external drive.
First off all, I assume the EXACT sequence on a power up that formats the new drive is that the receiver goes through the "powering up" blue background screens and ends up taking quite a while formatting the drive before any of the white background "satellite" screens appear.
Please reply if the formating happens before any blue screens. Also, how long does the format take? I got one re-boot where nothing happened but I could here the internal drive seeking but a stethescope on the Seagate extreme heard no seeks. I waited 2 hours and gave up.
For the record, after a power up, I have red buttoned the 700 many times once the white background screens have appeared and still not found the drive.
Things I have tried:
a) Western Digital Green 1 terrabyte, 8 mb buffer WD10EAVS (manufactured March 09) + Horntek Hoover Enclosure (HD-308-SSC).
No success here and I would advise against buying the enclosure for anything else since it's fans could be heard over my HR20-700!
B) Same drive plus Antec MX-1 enclosure. HR-20-700 refused to use it even with many power ups and also red button resets.
c) 1500 Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme with both quality esata 1 meter cable and the Antec cable. Tried several full power ups and also red button resets when the white background screens came up.

Any thoughts or other things to try? The only thing I see is that I haven't used the DBS recommended esata cable but people using the MX-1 seem to work with the Antec cable. I just viewed the esata connector on the HR20-700 and it looks to be OK.

One more thought - do you think the new releases of D* software are getting more picky so we will have to buy the "approved" unsupported drives? I would think this hard to do since drive recognition code is usually hardwired into the unit.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts ...

From the posts I've read the HR20-700 seems to work well with eSATA drives, and the Antec MX-1 with the WD Green drive is the most popular setup. I've got two and never ever a problem. Must be you. ;)
Did you power down the DVR and then power it back up with the eSATA already powered?
(Very important that you UNPLUG the DVR from the wall power, turning off the fron panel lights with the power button won't do it)
Did you try switching eSATA cable ends?
some eSATA cables are problematic but have not heard of a problem with the Antec version.
A RBR is never required for eSATA setup and would cancel anything that was started.

Bring it by the house and I'll take a look. :)

Edited by dettxw, 03 August 2009 - 03:37 PM.

-Steve- Subscriber since Sept 1998  My Complete Setup 

SWM16 / HR44-500 (2TB & AM21) / HR34-700 (3TB & AM21) / HR24-500 (2TB eSATA) / C31 via WCCK / C41 x2 / C41W / H25-700


#938 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 06:59 PM

Help please ...
I've tried about everything that is supposed to work in the "working esata" thread with no success.
I have an HR20-700, am computer savy, and am almost giving up at this point on adding an external drive.
First off all, I assume the EXACT sequence on a power up that formats the new drive is that the receiver goes through the "powering up" blue background screens and ends up taking quite a while formatting the drive before any of the white background "satellite" screens appear.
Please reply if the formating happens before any blue screens. Also, how long does the format take? I got one re-boot where nothing happened but I could here the internal drive seeking but a stethescope on the Seagate extreme heard no seeks. I waited 2 hours and gave up.
For the record, after a power up, I have red buttoned the 700 many times once the white background screens have appeared and still not found the drive.
Things I have tried:
a) Western Digital Green 1 terrabyte, 8 mb buffer WD10EAVS (manufactured March 09) + Horntek Hoover Enclosure (HD-308-SSC).
No success here and I would advise against buying the enclosure for anything else since it's fans could be heard over my HR20-700!
B) Same drive plus Antec MX-1 enclosure. HR-20-700 refused to use it even with many power ups and also red button resets.


Oddly, I've never tried an Antec on a 20-700, I do have two on 21-700s

1500 Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme with both quality esata 1 meter cable and the Antec cable. Tried several full power ups and also red button resets when the white background screens came up.


I have two Seagate 1.5TB Xtremes working on two 20-700s. For quite a while without problems.

One more thought - do you think the new releases of D* software are getting more picky so we will have to buy the "approved" unsupported drives? I would think this hard to do since drive recognition code is usually hardwired into the unit.


Don't even want to think of the uproar that would cause. Lots and lots of people have other eSATAs that work well and they have all shelled out a lot of money for them. And the largest WD or Seagate on that recommended list is only 1TB and that is not enough capacity.

If you can still find them, the Seagate Free Agent Pros work silently and perfectly with the 20-700.

If you want more help or thoughts, feel free to PM me.

Rich

#939 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 03 August 2009 - 11:10 PM

Here is some technical info about the Antec MX-1 http://www.dbstalk.c...6&postcount=186

#940 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 07:02 AM

Help please ...
I've tried about everything that is supposed to work in the "working esata" thread with no success.
I have an HR20-700, am computer savy, and am almost giving up at this point on adding an external drive.
First off all, I assume the EXACT sequence on a power up that formats the new drive is that the receiver goes through the "powering up" blue background screens and ends up taking quite a while formatting the drive before any of the white background "satellite" screens appear.
Please reply if the formating happens before any blue screens. Also, how long does the format take? I got one re-boot where nothing happened but I could here the internal drive seeking but a stethescope on the Seagate extreme heard no seeks. I waited 2 hours and gave up.
For the record, after a power up, I have red buttoned the 700 many times once the white background screens have appeared and still not found the drive.
Things I have tried:
a) Western Digital Green 1 terrabyte, 8 mb buffer WD10EAVS (manufactured March 09) + Horntek Hoover Enclosure (HD-308-SSC).
No success here and I would advise against buying the enclosure for anything else since it's fans could be heard over my HR20-700!
B) Same drive plus Antec MX-1 enclosure. HR-20-700 refused to use it even with many power ups and also red button resets.
c) 1500 Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme with both quality esata 1 meter cable and the Antec cable. Tried several full power ups and also red button resets when the white background screens came up.

Any thoughts or other things to try? The only thing I see is that I haven't used the DBS recommended esata cable but people using the MX-1 seem to work with the Antec cable. I just viewed the esata connector on the HR20-700 and it looks to be OK.

One more thought - do you think the new releases of D* software are getting more picky so we will have to buy the "approved" unsupported drives? I would think this hard to do since drive recognition code is usually hardwired into the unit.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts ...


There is a really simple procedure for adding an eSATA, the first thing you do is plug in the eSATA to eSATA jumper cord. This is to ensure that you don't power up the eSATA first and then plug in the cord and in the process of doing that, jiggle the powered up eSATA and wreck it.

After that, plug in the eSATA and then plug in the HR. Make sure the HR is the last thing you plug in.

Jumper cord first, power up the eSATA second and power up the HR last. Always. It's that simple.

No need to touch the red button, I haven't touched that in years. You've got to have patience and it sounds as if you've run out of patience. Just follow the above sequence and the eSATAs should work. The only eSATA I've found that doesn't work with my 20-700s is the My Book series from WD. With a 20-100, I have no idea. Different manufacturer, different HR. I find it hard to believe that an Antec MX-1 will not work with any HR. Have read no posts to make me think otherwise.

I suggested buying a 20-700 because I think they are the best of the HRs. If you get an owned 20-700, you can just drop a large HDD, I use Seagates, in place of the internal.

Again PM me and I'll be glad to help you.

Rich

#941 OFFLINE   wde00dbs

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Posted 04 August 2009 - 04:59 PM

Thanks rich584, dextxw and NaperDan for your prompt assistance.

NaperDan told me (in PM) that the formatting happens after the self test blue screens, only takes about 30 seconds, and then the boot goes on to the white screen satellite stuff. Since D* already forced me to the maintenance plan and told me the warranty had expired, I decided to crack open the case thinking I would peek inside to see how I could replace the original drive (as in other "irresponsible" forums). When the case came off, I found that the other end of the esata cable coming from the back panel WAS NOT CONNECTED to the motherboard!!!

Please disregard my previous post about the WD10EAVS and Antec MX1 not working. I now am running with a Seagae 1.5 TB FreeAgent Xtream. It formatted just as you guys said it would. No recordings made or played yet but don't anticipate any problems. :):):)

P.S. I wonder how many other HR20 problems this could explain? I had never done anything to my 700 so assume either SATA was never connected or came off during shipping. It went on with minimal force. Note the motherboard has a SATA (not eSATA) connector on it. This is somewhat viewable through the top cooling slots too.
Again thanks guys!!!
D* since they opened shop ...
Slim style AT9 Dish
HR20-700->Slingbox->RPbPr->Panasonic PT-52LCX66
(with broken Seagate 1.5 Xtreme external drive)
HR21 -> HDMI -> Same TV
H20-->Component-->Olevia LT23HVX

#942 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 05 August 2009 - 07:27 AM

Thanks rich584, dextxw and NaperDan for your prompt assistance.


You're welcome.

P.S. I wonder how many other HR20 problems this could explain? I had never done anything to my 700 so assume either SATA was never connected or came off during shipping. It went on with minimal force. Note the motherboard has a SATA (not eSATA) connector on it. This is somewhat viewable through the top cooling slots too.
Again thanks guys!!!


You'd be amazed at how many things can go wrong and do. I've had several 20-700 replacements that wouldn't do anything when plugged in. I finally bought an "owned" 20-700 and when I took it apart to put in a larger internal drive, lo and behold, there was a fuse in it. You'd think a design engineer would have put the fuse in a fuse holder that could be accessed from the back of the set. Many makers of AV units do just that. All those sets that wouldn't do anything when plugged in were "refurbished".

Wouldn't you think the last step in a refurbishing process would be to test the set? I could sit here and type for a couple hours and list the problems with HRs I've received that were purportedly "refurbished", but I'm sure you get the idea. Refurbishing is done by a contractor, not D* itself and they do little but repack the units and reship them, as far as I can tell.

Rich

#943 OFFLINE   TigerDriver

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 10:43 AM

Here's a link to another esata drive/enclosure to add to the compatibilty list.

The bundle is a 1TB eSATA Seagate 7200.11 HDD and an Ultra eSTAT/USB enclosure. I paid $137, including shipping.

I had the HDD into the case, buttoned up, and ready to go in about 10 minutes minutes (five of which were hacking my way through the cryptonite plastic packing the drive). Then I:

1. Unplugged off my HR20-700
2. Plugged in the Seagate via the eSATA cable provided with the enclosure
3. Plugged in the power brick to the enclosure and hit the ON switch
4. Waited a few seconds for the drive to come up to speed
5. Plugged in my HR20
6. Got the message from HR20 that it was formatting drive.
7. After formatting, the HR20 proceeded as with a normal reset.
8. I recorded the final 15 minutes of a random show; it showed up in the List.
9. I again power-cycled the HR20.
10. The reset was uneventful and unremarkable, and the show recorded in step 8 was still in the list.
11. I'm now waiting for the Guide to populate so I can setup some auto-records.


The enclosure comes with everything you could possible want: both and eSTATA and a USB cable, a PC slot cover plate with an outward-facing eSATA jack an an inward-facing pigtail connector to run to your PC's on-board eSATA plug.

P.S.

Followups:

Fan/HDD noise:

I keep my electronics in my garage, against a wall shared with my entertainment system. So I don't hear it at all. After I assembled the drive/case on my workbench, I briefly plugged it to make certain that both the fan and HDD were working. Not surprisingly, the fan noise masked the HDD noise--small fans must run faster than large ones for the same amount of cooling, so you'll have a noise problem with any of the fan-cooled externals.

So, if your equipment is external or enclosed, the noise should be negligible. If your equipment is in the same room with your TV and is not enclosed in a cabinet, then I'll guess that the noise would be excessive unless you leave the top off the enclosure and unplug the fan.

__________________
Joe

HR10-250, HR20-100 (0x0312), HR21-700 (0x0290)
Samsung HLS5687WX 56" DLP
Onkyo TX-SR705 A/V receiver
Sony DVP-NS75H DVD player
Joe

HR20-100, HR24NC-100, HR21-700
Samsung HLS5687WX 56" DLP
Onkyo TX-SR705 A/V receiver
Samsung Blue-Ray/DVD player
4-channel NTSC modulator

#944 OFFLINE   Sinhbin

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 02:07 AM

My HD-DVR - HR21P-200 is working perfectly so far with a WD 1TB "My DVR Expander" external drive. :hurah:

#945 OFFLINE   Volunteer

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 06:26 AM

Does anybody care to comment on the rotational speed preference ... 5400, 7200, variable/green?

Do any of these drive rotational speeds work equally well in the HRxx's either as an internal drive or an eSata drive?

Samsung 55" LCD
Samsung 50" DLP

Vizio 37" LCD
2-HR20-700/ w/ 2TB eSata
1-HR44-500 w/ 2TB eSata
SWM16
5-LNB Dish


#946 OFFLINE   P Smith

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 09:40 AM

Does anybody care to comment on the rotational speed preference ... 5400, 7200, variable/green?

Do any of these drive rotational speeds work equally well in the HRxx's either as an internal drive or an eSATA drive?

Yes. More important is if the disk/box/chip could successfully negotiate at 1.5 Gbps speed between all components in the chain.

#947 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 09 August 2009 - 10:28 AM

Does anybody care to comment on the rotational speed preference ... 5400, 7200, variable/green?

Do any of these drive rotational speeds work equally well in the HRxx's either as an internal drive or an eSata drive?


I'd go with the 7200 speed, but the slower speed drives will work too. Apparently, the "green" drives are more for computers than for DVRs which are always running.

Rich

#948 OFFLINE   wde00dbs

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 12:59 PM

I am happy as a clam :) with my (finally) successful add of 1.5 TB Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme. No troubles either making or playing recordings thus far.

What I have noticed is that the 30 second skip takes about 3 seconds now and was close to 1 second when using my HR20-700 internal drive.
With the internal drive I was never able to see the "30 sec" skip message come up on my screen before the skip completed and now I can.
On the other hand, I can see more of what I am skipping so can go back if want to view skipped over material.

Other actions seem a bit slower but don't ask me by how much.
Comments??
D* since they opened shop ...
Slim style AT9 Dish
HR20-700->Slingbox->RPbPr->Panasonic PT-52LCX66
(with broken Seagate 1.5 Xtreme external drive)
HR21 -> HDMI -> Same TV
H20-->Component-->Olevia LT23HVX

#949 OFFLINE   Rich

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:06 PM

I am happy as a clam :) with my (finally) successful add of 1.5 TB Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme. No troubles either making or playing recordings thus far.

What I have noticed is that the 30 second skip takes about 3 seconds now and was close to 1 second when using my HR20-700 internal drive.
With the internal drive I was never able to see the "30 sec" skip message come up on my screen before the skip completed and now I can.
On the other hand, I can see more of what I am skipping so can go back if want to view skipped over material.

Other actions seem a bit slower but don't ask me by how much.
Comments??


Haven't tried the skip in a long time. Got used to the slip and when I tried the skip, I went right back to the slip. Less info missed.

Adding an eSATA is just another thing the HR has to deal with so you will notice a couple two, three things a tad slower, but you'll quickly get used to it.

Rich

#950 OFFLINE   dettxw

dettxw

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Posted 11 August 2009 - 01:22 PM

I am happy as a clam :) with my (finally) successful add of 1.5 TB Seagate FreeAgent Xtreme. No troubles either making or playing recordings thus far.

What I have noticed is that the 30 second skip takes about 3 seconds now and was close to 1 second when using my HR20-700 internal drive.
With the internal drive I was never able to see the "30 sec" skip message come up on my screen before the skip completed and now I can.
On the other hand, I can see more of what I am skipping so can go back if want to view skipped over material.

Other actions seem a bit slower but don't ask me by how much.
Comments??

Are you sure that you're using 30SKIP instead of 30SLIP?
SLIP is the default and is what you're using unless you changed it.
My SKIP using eSATA is virtually instantaneous.
Maybe for grins you could re-enter the "30SKIP" keyword search and see if there is any change.

If you didn't already know about the tips thread:
Undocumented HD-DVR+ Tips & Tricks

Edited by dettxw, 11 August 2009 - 02:54 PM.

-Steve- Subscriber since Sept 1998  My Complete Setup 

SWM16 / HR44-500 (2TB & AM21) / HR34-700 (3TB & AM21) / HR24-500 (2TB eSATA) / C31 via WCCK / C41 x2 / C41W / H25-700





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