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HR20 OTA - The Other Side of the Story


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56 replies to this topic

#21 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:43 AM

This is exactly what TMS has told me when I have called them. If you are missing channels here is the link and the phone number for TMS:


Milo, what was Tribune like when you called them. Eager to help, or begrudgingly talking to you?

~Alan

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#22 OFFLINE   nocaster

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 10:46 AM

The HR10 does, indeed, have an autoscan feature.


So does the H20 and the older H10. I have never figured out why the HR-20 does not.

#23 OFFLINE   hasan

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 11:25 AM

So does the H20 and the older H10. I have never figured out why the HR-20 does not.


Keep in mind, SCAN for Channels IS in the manual for the HR20....it just isn't in the box.:)

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#24 OFFLINE   stiffi

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 11:31 AM

Does this interruption of information between the stations and DTV affect the signal meter? In other words, if you are not getting a channel to show up in the signal meter, could it be because the Tribune guide data is screwey?

#25 OFFLINE   Alan Gordon

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 11:48 AM

Does this interruption of information between the stations and DTV affect the signal meter? In other words, if you are not getting a channel to show up in the signal meter, could it be because the Tribune guide data is screwey?


Most of the times, no, but it is possible. My DMA's CBS has a very small coverage area (even at full-power) and I've only picked them up once or twice... but a while back when their guide data first popped up on my older DirecTV HD receivers (after I got the station to correct their guide data), DirecTV receivers mapped the guide data for WSWG-DT and WSWG-DT2 to their analog channel frequency instead of their digital channel frequency. Eventually, the problem corrected itself, but it took a while.

For the longest time, WSST-DT (an independent station in my DMA) mapped their channel to 55-51 (55 being their analog channel, 51 their digital channel) meaning that even once guide data for the channel became available, you couldn't tune to it due to the wrong channel mapping. They later corrected this, and I started being able to receive it on 55-1... until recently when they went back to mapping the PSIP channel information to 55-51 effectively ending me being able to use Name-Based recording on my TiVo Series 3, and being able to tune into this channel at all on my HR20.

A nearby channel simulcasts a digital version of their analog channel on a subchannel, but up until recently (after an e-mail to TiVo got it straightened out for me), Tribune had their sub-channel mapped to the same channel as their primary digital signal... meaning that when you tried to tune to WTXL-DT2 on 27-1, you really tuned to WTXL-DT on 27-1.

~Alan

#26 OFFLINE   Kansas Zephyr

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Posted 24 July 2007 - 01:21 PM

Does this interruption of information between the stations and DTV affect the signal meter? In other words, if you are not getting a channel to show up in the signal meter, could it be because the Tribune guide data is screwey?


Yes, could be, that's what happened to me.

I was getting zero signal strength on 3-1 KSNW. Although I was getting it on my HDTVs, using the same cable, just moved from the OTA input to the TV's.

After going back though the antenna setup several times on the HR20. (Go to initial setup...add all channels...select done...exit back to the "live" TV...go back to antenna setup...delete ALL channels...select done...exit back to live TV...go back to antenna setup...add ALL channels...select done...exit back to live TV... go back to antenna setup...delete ONLY the channels you don't get/want...select done...exit back to live TV.)

It finally mapped correctly. I finally got signal on the meter for 3-1 KSNW and it now displays when selected.

BTW...it has always worked flawlessly on my HR10-250, never with an issue!
5 LNB Slimline & SWM-16
SWM1 2 HR20s & HR21 via SWS-4 "green label" 4-way splitter w/power pass one leg for PI - SWM2 2 HR20s & HR21 after SWS-4 "green label" 4-way splitter
2 HR20-700 Wireless network for DoD
HR20-700 eSATA Vantec NexStar CX w/ 2TB WD20EVDS
HR21-100/AM21 Wireless network for DoD
HR21-100/AM21
With diplexed OTA via an "out" on one SWS-4 4-way splitter, using a Winegard YA 1713 - Channel Master 4228 - Channel Master 7777 in the attic.
Yes, my market has HD LiLs...and I'm still not giving up OTA! No rain-fade, and all sub-channels 24/7/365.
Also, with diplexed Cox Internet on one leg, downstream of a SWS-4 4-way splitter, using a SWS-2 2-way splitter, as a combiner.
R10 via SWM-16 Legacy 1
In boxes HR10-250, HDVR2 & (2) D10-300

#27 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 02:30 PM

Not if the tuners are incapable of receiving PSIP data as this engineer suggests. I would like to know how he has determined that the tuners are non-standard. Hasan, could you ask him?


======================

A standard tuner would be able to process all of the PSIP information and show it on the screen. FCC... D* does not. If it doesn't handle the PSIP information according to FCC specs, not a FCC compliant tuner. Can't sell it on the open market.

Remember - satellite and cable companies do not play by the same rules as OTA broadcasters. There's a lot of stuff they do not have to do.

#28 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:14 PM

Thanks, and welcome to the forum!

I figured that was the answer, but the next question is, can PSIP be implemented on the software layer or is it reliant on the hardware? If it's hardware-dependent, we may never get OTA scanning capabilities.
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#29 OFFLINE   houskamp

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:34 PM

just wondering.. In order to get PSIP data wouldn't that require tuning to each individual chanel?

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#30 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:35 PM

Bingo!

To distill this engineer's complaint down to it's essence, for the OTA tuner in the HR20 to work correctly, the following chain of PSIP data has to be perfect:

Station -> Tribune -> DirecTV -> Satellite uplink -> HR20.

If the "ball is dropped" anywhere along this path, you get no reception.

If you add an autoscan feature to the HR20, it becomes:

Station -> HR20.

The HR10 does, indeed, have an autoscan feature.


Slight misconception here... We do NOT feed our PSIP data to Tribune. It goes:

Company PSIP Servers => Local Station => OTA => ATSC receiver => viewer

The other path goes

Local station => email with program listings to Tribune => Tribune puts in D* format => D* uplink => H20

There's a big difference.........

#31 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:42 PM

Thanks, and welcome to the forum!

I figured that was the answer, but the next question is, can PSIP be implemented on the software layer or is it reliant on the hardware? If it's hardware-dependent, we may never get OTA scanning capabilities.


PSIP information is strictly data, therefore it's in a software layer. We have test equipment we feed the signal into and we can pick all the streams apart and look at whatever we want, schedules, levels, signals, PIDs the information is being sent on, whatever. Just an input board and everything else is strickly software.

A digital broadcast is just that, a digital stream with all the information packaged together. You can buy <$100 USB dongles, plug it into a computer, load the software and watch HD TV where ever you're at. You just have to be able to process the signal.

#32 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:44 PM

just wondering.. In order to get PSIP data wouldn't that require tuning to each individual chanel?


Nope. On an OTA ATSC tuner they have a scan feature. You turn it on, go to the menu, channel setup, scan. It picks up everything it can and automatically builds the channel guide, listings, channel numbers, etc.

The key, which some people miss, is that you need to have a good antenna and signal to start with. If you miss a channel you know is there, you just readjust your antenna for best signal strength and rescan.

#33 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:51 PM

I don't think D* will say anything. To me OTA is the KING in PQ for HD. MPEG4 can come close but not better. That might be it...


It may look close, but cable & satellite will never match the quality of an OTA signal, no matter what their marketing says....

Our total OTA signal is 19+ MBit wide. I split mine into 3 streams, 12 Mbit (average HD signal bitrate) , 5 Mbit (SD feed) and 2 MBit (SD feed). Cable & satellite don't have the space to give that much to each channel. Not even my 12 Mbit I use for my HD broadcast... And in digital, signal quality is directly proportional to the bandwidth it has. Less bandwidth, less detail. More bandwidth, greater detail.

#34 OFFLINE   houskamp

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 03:51 PM

Nope. On an OTA ATSC tuner they have a scan feature. You turn it on, go to the menu, channel setup, scan. It picks up everything it can and automatically builds the channel guide, listings, channel numbers, etc.

The key, which some people miss, is that you need to have a good antenna and signal to start with. If you miss a channel you know is there, you just readjust your antenna for best signal strength and rescan.

but wouldn't you have to periodicaly rescan to keep data valid?

AKA: SMOKE
MRV was all that's left on my wishlist (wishlist done) :D


#35 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:01 PM

It may look close, but cable & satellite will never match the quality of an OTA signal, no matter what their marketing says....

Our total OTA signal is 19+ MBit wide. I split mine into 3 streams, 12 Mbit (average HD signal bitrate) , 5 Mbit (SD feed) and 2 MBit (SD feed). Cable & satellite don't have the space to give that much to each channel. Not even my 12 Mbit I use for my HD broadcast... And in digital, signal quality is directly proportional to the bandwidth it has. Less bandwidth, less detail. More bandwidth, greater detail.


You're correct, of course, that there's no way that a decompressed and recompressed satellite signal can match the quality of OTA, and arguably there's a level of quality that can only be achieved by using 100% lossless compression or no compression. The question is simply one of how much degradation to accept.

Unfortunately most people will accept a highly degraded signal - look at Discovery (SD), Comedy Central or HGTV. All are far too overcompressed in my opinion.

However -- and I don't claim to speak for anyone else -- KCBS-DT OTA has my vote for best quality in the LA market, and KCBS-MPEG4 (sat-delivered HD) is almost as good. Almost, and in my opinion, acceptably good. There is still a level of artifacting in the MPEG4 feed which is not present in the OTA feed but -- again I speak only for myself -- I do not find it distracting enough to worry about.
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#36 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:05 PM

but wouldn't you have to periodicaly rescan to keep data valid?


Only if you have a new station come into the market. Once you have all the stations in your receiver, we keep feeding it all the information all the time to keep it current. That's why the electronic program guides is always current, the channel number, the type of audio (stereo/5.1/dolby/mono), closed captioning, etc.

One time that EVERYONE will have to do a rescan is in 2009 when the analog transmitters are turned off. There will be a big digital channel shuffle (too long to discuss here). For example, my Ch 56 will move to Ch 31. Other stations will move also. While the channel number will remain the same (i.e. 23-1), the actual frequency that digital information is broadcast on will move. Rescan, all is back.

#37 OFFLINE   mpotratz

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:09 PM

You're correct, of course, that there's no way that a decompressed and recompressed satellite signal can match the quality of OTA, and arguably there's a level of quality that can only be achieved by using 100% lossless compression or no compression. The question is simply one of how much degradation to accept.

Unfortunately most people will accept a highly degraded signal - look at Discovery (SD), Comedy Central or HGTV. All are far too overcompressed in my opinion.

However -- and I don't claim to speak for anyone else -- KCBS-DT OTA has my vote for best quality in the LA market, and KCBS-MPEG4 (sat-delivered HD) is almost as good. Almost, and in my opinion, acceptably good. There is still a level of artifacting in the MPEG4 feed which is not present in the OTA feed but -- again I speak only for myself -- I do not find it distracting enough to worry about.



Great point! That is most definitely true. Quality is in the eye of the beholder and what they will accept. One that that is almost always true is that digital is better then analog. (generally speaking of course!)

MPEG-4 is a huge step forward in compression techniques and quality. Still some implementation with the codecs, but very very good. Was all over the NAB show this year.

#38 OFFLINE   Fish Man

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:11 PM

Slight misconception here... We do NOT feed our PSIP data to Tribune. It goes:

Company PSIP Servers => Local Station => OTA => ATSC receiver => viewer

The other path goes

Local station => email with program listings to Tribune => Tribune puts in D* format => D* uplink => H20

There's a big difference.........


I realize you don't explicitly feed your PSIP data to Tribune, but DirecTV gets it from them, and they get it indirectly somehow. This is how mistakes are made.

#39 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:13 PM

PSIP data is not equal to Electronic Program Guide Data.
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#40 OFFLINE   houskamp

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Posted 25 July 2007 - 04:17 PM

Only if you have a new station come into the market. Once you have all the stations in your receiver, we keep feeding it all the information all the time to keep it current. That's why the electronic program guides is always current, the channel number, the type of audio (stereo/5.1/dolby/mono), closed captioning, etc.

One time that EVERYONE will have to do a rescan is in 2009 when the analog transmitters are turned off. There will be a big digital channel shuffle (too long to discuss here). For example, my Ch 56 will move to Ch 31. Other stations will move also. While the channel number will remain the same (i.e. 23-1), the actual frequency that digital information is broadcast on will move. Rescan, all is back.

but when you scan the first time you get a week of data.. wouldn't you have to periodicaly tune to each channel found to get new info?

AKA: SMOKE
MRV was all that's left on my wishlist (wishlist done) :D





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