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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Could these HD-DVD Titles... help close the gap?


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109 replies to this topic

#26 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:09 AM

one thing we overlook is the European market, and HD-DVD has the lead there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19726219/
HD DVD outselling Blu-ray in Europe
Group claims 74 percent market share for stand-alone players

Updated: 6:16 a.m. MT July 12, 2007

FRANKFURT - HD DVD video players have outsold rival standard Blu-ray players by a three-to-one margin in Europe's main markets so far this year, according to a lobby group.



Stand alone player numbers are meaningless. That is like saying one format is winning in gray colored machines. PS3s are selling very well world wide and all of course are blu-ray players, In fact the best blu-ray player on the market. Hot like the piece of crap 360 add-on HD-DUD thing.
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#27 OFFLINE   Creeper04

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:53 AM

Stand alone player numbers are meaningless. That is like saying one format is winning in gray colored machines. PS3s are selling very well world wide and all of course are blu-ray players, In fact the best blu-ray player on the market. Hot like the piece of crap 360 add-on HD-DUD thing.


Jeeze, ebaltz, are you always this obnoxious? I'm fairly new the the forum here (second post actually) and frequently see a lot of good discussion. But your fanboy antics... yikes.

Taking one side of an issue can be done without continually insulting the other side. I totally get that you love the BR side of this argument. But the rhetoric is childish and annoying to the rest of us that can actually explore an issue without such behavior.

Feel free to flame me now... I'm sure that's a "Fanboy 101" requirement to getting called out. I probably won't be back for the colorful response; my loss I guess.

:nono2:

#28 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 09:38 AM

HD DVD can hold 45 Gigabytes -- only 5 less than Blu-ray Disc. HD DVD players have interactive capability, something not available on present generation Blu-ray Disc players. HD DVD players have ethernet interfaces and can receive firmware updates from the internet, something not available from present generation Blu-ray players.
Regarding scratch resistance, in theory, HD DVD discs are more scratch resistant due to subsurface recording. Sony had to devise a protective coating to improve scratch resistance, which natively is inferior to HD DVD.

Blu-ray disc wins on number of studios supporting the format, with a huge advantage from Fox and Disney. Also, Blu-ray has more hardware manufacturers.
HD DVD is a more mature format (Blu-ray Disc standards are still not finalized).

As to the PS/3 --although playback quality is better than some standalone Blu-ray players, the control interface is primitive.

At present, Blu-ray is winning most of tthe battles, but the format war is far from over.

Charlie
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Family Room: Samsung UN60F7100 60" LED 3D TV; Samsung  BD-H5900 3D Blu-Ray DVD player; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVo Roamio Plus DVR, Toshiba HD-A3 HD DVD player.
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#29 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:21 AM

Jeeze, ebaltz, are you always this obnoxious? I'm fairly new the the forum here (second post actually) and frequently see a lot of good discussion. But your fanboy antics... yikes.

Taking one side of an issue can be done without continually insulting the other side. I totally get that you love the BR side of this argument. But the rhetoric is childish and annoying to the rest of us that can actually explore an issue without such behavior.

Feel free to flame me now... I'm sure that's a "Fanboy 101" requirement to getting called out. I probably won't be back for the colorful response; my loss I guess.

:nono2:


No skin off my nose.

As for the facts Cholly, yours are just made up, totally not correct and trying to be skewed, so whose a fanboy, somebody who tells the truth or someone who lies to defend their inferior technology?
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#30 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:55 AM

HD DVD can hold 45 Gigabytes -- only 5 less than Blu-ray .


How many movies are using these Triple Layer HD-DVD's that haven't been finalized and are not in production?

Look at Blades of Glory for example.

The Blu-ray having a 50GB disc will get all the extras in HD AND lossless audio.
The HD-DVD having only a 30GB disc gets all the extras in HD but only Dolby Digital sound.

#31 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:11 AM

The HD-DVD having only a 30GB disc gets all the extras in HD but only Dolby Digital sound.


Is that a bad thing? (DD)

#32 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 05:16 PM

I think these guys sum up the war pretty good

http://www.thedigita...soap060107.html

who's pay $217 for the trek HD-dvd

http://www.thedigita...com/#mytwocents

#33 OFFLINE   nfusion770

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:40 AM

History doesn't support this, though. There were no Beta/VHS combo units that helped Beta customers survive. Beta was dropped cold once it was dropped. There is no incentive for the winner in the war to support the "old" losing technology because you no longer have a choice but to buy the winner. IT wouldn't be cost-effective to try and support people's old already-bought movies once the war is won.

Also worth noting that some folks went for those LaserDisc players back in the day, and when that technology lost out people were left holding that bag too.

True, as long as you have your player you can play all your current stuff... but you'll have to buy a new player to play new stuff if your format loses, and it is unlikely that your future player will play your old stuff in the case of a format war.


I would consider DVD+r/rw, DVD-r/rw, DVD RAM (to a lesser extent)- etc as a more current and salient example. It won't be long before dual format drives are nearly as cheap and single format models. This trend will probably die out a few generations after the a winner is declared, but by that time- 5 years- most will have replaced their 10 loser media discs, with winner media discs via Christmas presents from aunt Martha and grandma.

I take the History lessons with a grain of salt, as electronics have never been so cheap and essentially disposable as they are today. Couple that with fact that hstory had nothing the likes of Walmart and the internet driving prices, and I think it's a fair bet my risk assessment is fairly reasonable.

I guess we'll see.

#34 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:38 AM

Today's Arizona Republic shows BD sales of 300 ahead of HD-DVD sales of 300. these are just for the Phoenix area. (pre-orders?)

#35 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:38 PM

http://www.thedigita...index.html#cema

here are some stats

#36 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:45 PM

Not sure where all those numbers come from exactly.

Amazon shows 429 Blu-ray titles and 382 HD-DVD, and MANY MANY more blu-rays announced. What should be compared is # of titles NOT available in a given format.
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#37 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:01 PM

60/40 BD. not too lopsided as one would think.
TOTAL BLU-RAY DISC TITLES (7/27/07 - DVD Release Report): 274/63*
TOTAL HD-DVD TITLES (7/27/07 - DVD Release Report): 259/47*
*Net total of R1 discs released/announced. Discontinued & adult not included.

HIGH-DEF MARKET SHARE - BRD VS HD-DVD SOFTWARE SALES (7/22/07 - Nielsen/VideoScan):
Week Ending 7/22 Blu-ray Disc: 74 HD-DVD: 26
Year to Date Blu-ray Disc: 67 HD-DVD: 33
Since Inception Blu-ray Disc: 60 HD-DVD: 40
Movie titles only (videogame titles not included) - Includes HD-DVD/DVD Combo Format

I have $500 burning a hole in my pocket, decisions decisions. or do I wait for Samsung's dual player?, Hmmm

#38 OFFLINE   DBS Commando

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:50 PM

From where I stand, this war can end in many ways. Here are my top 3 choices:

1. (the long way) 3 out of 4 homes in America will have HDTV's. When this happens, studios are going to notice a dip in DVD sales as everyone waits for a HD format to win. They will put 2 and 2 together and figure out some sort of agreement.

2. Dual format players take off and the consumer gets to enjoy every movie in HD while the feuding between the studios will continue for years to come. The quicker the price for the dual format players to drop below $200, the better.

3. A major retailer (such as Wal Mart) declares a format as a winner and only stocks those types of players. Like it or not, Wal Mart is now plays a big part in the life of an average American. As soon as they get cheap players on the shelves, people will jump for them. If Wal Mart were to say Blu Ray is the winner tomorrow, then it would most certainly be so.

#39 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 12:32 AM

One problem with HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray is the age-old chicken vs the egg situation that applies to technology that requires software.

Way back in the day the Amiga was a nice computer from the Commodore company... but it died in large part due to lack of software support. So if you bought an Amiga, it didn't matter how good it was, no software meant you got bored with it.

Similar thing happened with the 3DO video game console.. it was an early home gaming system that supported games via CD... but once Sega had a CD add-on and other companies, Sony with Playstation in particular, came out with similar systems the 3DO found itself without much software support and the customers went elsewhere.

So... which player are customers going to buy? HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Until the customers speak by purchasing substantially more of one than the other... the movie studios will continue to hedge which one to release their movies for playing... and until customers choose, the war continues.

Personally, I see this as a big mess. I can't remember if CDs had anything similar competing as they tried to take over from vinyl... but in the early DVD days there was support for DIVX (not the same one now that is an encoder) and that caused some stalls in the early game... but folks quickly saw DIVX as a dead-end as customers went towards normal DVD.

Thus far, no clear winner has surfaced... and personally, the longer this drags out the greater chance there is of another competing technology to come about that will beat both formats.

Think about TVs... Used to be just CRTs, but now we have LCDs, Plasmas, DLPs, and some new formats on the horizon. From the customer perspective all of these TVs "work" the same in that they display a picture.. and you don't have to buy a certain TV for Dish or another for DirecTV.. just buy your TV and plug it in... so these other TV technologies can flourish until the best/cheapest one wins out in the long run.

But HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are mutually exclusive. You can't play one on the other... you have to choose. Those multi-format players are mega-bucks and sacrifice some of the features of the formats in trying to be universal so it's not really a good answer either.

This is just a big mess, and I'm waiting to see how it settles out before I put any money into a potentially dead format.

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#40 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 01:45 AM

From where I stand, this war can end in many ways. Here are my top 3 choices:

1. (the long way) 3 out of 4 homes in America will have HDTV's. When this happens, studios are going to notice a dip in DVD sales as everyone waits for a HD format to win. They will put 2 and 2 together and figure out some sort of agreement.

2. Dual format players take off and the consumer gets to enjoy every movie in HD while the feuding between the studios will continue for years to come. The quicker the price for the dual format players to drop below $200, the better.

3. A major retailer (such as Wal Mart) declares a format as a winner and only stocks those types of players. Like it or not, Wal Mart is now plays a big part in the life of an average American. As soon as they get cheap players on the shelves, people will jump for them. If Wal Mart were to say Blu Ray is the winner tomorrow, then it would most certainly be so.


1. As DVD sales drop-off it may lead to the new format, or...it may bring about the era of downloaded movies and disc are irrelevant.

2. Maybe. But they are very expensive now, and that probably won't change because of the royalties involved, and besides MOST manufactures support Blu-ray, and there is really no incentive for them to add a fading format like DVD-HD

3. This has already happened. Target will only stock and sell Blu-ray players. Blockbuster will only stock and rent Blu-rays from its stores. Another recent retailer has also made the decision to go Blu-ray only. The pieces are falling into place and Blu-ray is winning every one of them. On top of that the majority of manufacturing support, a superior gaming machine with built in blu-ray, the vast majority of studios supporting Blu-ray, including the most important for sales, in my opinion, Disney, since they do so well in DVD sales. Kids have to have the movies they want, and if they are only in Blu-ray, guess which player mom and dad are buying.
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#41 ONLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:02 AM

I'm going to have to backup a bit here... and re-state my position as I realize now what I initially said was not exactly what I meant to say.

Let me define first "critical mass" as being the time when product B overtakes product A and essentially wipes it out of the competition. VHS vs Beta was ultimately a 10-12 year or so battle before Beta officially handed in the towel, but the critical mass happened a few years earlier before Sony saw the light and threw in the towel.

DVD vs VHS is still technically going on because VCRs are still in the marketplace and manufacturers are still making consumer units... so we are in roughly year 10 of this battle. If things hold true to form, it may go another couple of years before manufacturers finally throw in the towel and stop making new VCRs. Of course part of this is due to TiVo and other PVR/DVR units, but that muddies the waters so I'll leave that out of this discussion.

Now... While the protracted Beta vs VHS battle was 10-12 years before Beta was formally wiped out... the actual overtaking happened before that, just as is the case now with DVD vs VHS, with DVD having overtaken a few years ago.

It also happens that DVD reaching "critical mass" happened sooner than VHS knocking out Beta so the statements about DVD reaching the controlling marketshare are true.

But what I was referring to was the time before that... When Beta and VHS came out, there was nothing else for the home user to buy... so immediately people who could afford either Beta or VHS bought one. But when DVD came out, VHS was a long-established consumer product so there was not the same drive for the customer to try a new product. DVD, aside from early adopters, sat around a bit in its first few years not getting a lot of shelf space or consumer adoption.

However, once people started really taking notice of all that DVD offered, it took off like gangbusters. So if we were plotting curves... Beta/VHS was a small spike then solid increasing volume over a long period of time... whereas DVD was semi-flatlined then a little growth then an explosion.

Folks were not resistant to VHS/Beta because they wanted this in the home... Those same folks were resistant to DVD because they already had a device that did what DVD offered, and DVD didn't let you record so you lost a feature! BUT once people took notice, DVD went nuts.

So... I believe it is both true that DVD took longer to initially adopt than VHS AND also true that it took over the market faster than VHS did.

Summarizing... VHS was adopted quicker as it had no opposition, DVD opposed VHS and it took a while to break-through... but once the breakthrough happened DVD penetrated the market much faster and more thoroughly than VHS did.

I hope that helps make my thoughts more clear and less conflicting with the sales data.


Interesting concept taking the VHS/Beta war and extending it then into a VHS/DVD war. While it seems to be true that DVDs are the fastest technology to go from zero to mass acceptance, you're points about replacing an older technology are intriguing.

But... just as you state that Beta lost years before it actually stopped, VHS could be said to have lost several years ago as well. When Blockbuster, walmart, and studios stopped selling or renting VHS recordings. I completely disagree that DVD vs. VHS is still ongoing; that war is definitely over. VHS is not going to regain popularity. :)

Just so, HD-DVD and Blu-ray is still an active war. While both claim to have won, neither really has done so--either still can make a sudden run yet.

Cheers,
Tom

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My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#42 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 06:29 AM

Back to the OP's question, will it help sell HD DVD's. From http://www.thedigita...140.html#snyder

"At once point, I asked the audience for a show of hands to see how many people would be interested in purchasing the set at that price. Out of the entire 500-strong audience (and keep in mind, these were not just casual Trek fans but major Trek über-fans), just THREE people raised their hands. Just three. CBS/Paramount is going to eat this release if they stick to the $217 price tag. Given that many Trek fans already have mixed feelings about the whole Remastered effort, $217 is just crazy - it'll be a poison pill for this release if it doesn't change between now and November. Ouch!"

I think there's his answer.

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#43 OFFLINE   DawgLink

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:28 AM

If anything, I see Blu-Ray expanding their lead in the next year or two.

The PS3's are really going to take off in the next 2 years, imo, and its only going to help the Blu-Ray Sales.

#44 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 09:03 AM

Back to the OP's question, will it help sell HD DVD's. From http://www.thedigita...140.html#snyder

"At once point, I asked the audience for a show of hands to see how many people would be interested in purchasing the set at that price. Out of the entire 500-strong audience (and keep in mind, these were not just casual Trek fans but major Trek über-fans), just THREE people raised their hands. Just three. CBS/Paramount is going to eat this release if they stick to the $217 price tag. Given that many Trek fans already have mixed feelings about the whole Remastered effort, $217 is just crazy - it'll be a poison pill for this release if it doesn't change between now and November. Ouch!"

I think there's his answer.


yeah i read that too. thought that was funny. :D

#45 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 10:34 AM

If anything, I see Blu-Ray expanding their lead in the next year or two.

The PS3's are really going to take off in the next 2 years, imo, and its only going to help the Blu-Ray Sales.


Sony is going to have to pull off some magic in order to make this happen. Price has hurt them tremendously, and until they get the price down, sales aren't going to take off. Further, the PS/3 suffers from a lack of software titles. Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360.

Regarding dual format players: If I were to go for both formats, I'd get two separate players -- probably the Toshiba HD-A20 for HD DVD, and the Sony BDP-S300 for Blu-ray Disc.

:listenup: Please note: The proper names for the two formats are HD DVD (no hyphen) and Blu-ray Disc (lower case "R", and includes the word "Disc").

Charlie
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Family Room: Samsung UN60F7100 60" LED 3D TV; Samsung  BD-H5900 3D Blu-Ray DVD player; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVo Roamio Plus DVR, Toshiba HD-A3 HD DVD player.
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#46 OFFLINE   DawgLink

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 01:45 PM

Sony is going to have to pull off some magic in order to make this happen. Price has hurt them tremendously, and until they get the price down, sales aren't going to take off. Further, the PS/3 suffers from a lack of software titles. Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360.

Regarding dual format players: If I were to go for both formats, I'd get two separate players -- probably the Toshiba HD-A20 for HD DVD, and the Sony BDP-S300 for Blu-ray Disc.

:listenup: Please note: The proper names for the two formats are HD DVD (no hyphen) and Blu-ray Disc (lower case "R", and includes the word "Disc").


Magic won't be needed. Since the $100 price drop for the 60-gig, sales have picked up quite nicely for the PS3. In addition, the next 6-10 months are going to be very good to the PS3 game wise as most of the critics point to the lack of PS3 games and many exciting titles are soon to be released. I expect this Christmas and early 2008 to be a very productive selling period for it.

Once the 60-gigs sell out, the 80-gigs will drop down to $499 with the game/controller leaving the deal hence the $100 price drop.

With all that said, the 360's continual problems with the RROD is going to only get worse, imo, and I have nothing against the 360 as many of my friends have it. Microsoft has stated their newer models will fix the problem....we will see. I don't buy it. Neighbor has had to return his 360 for the 5th time...I repeat...5th time.

I think 2008/2009 will be very good years for Blu-Ray and Sony. PS2 sales are still quite good.

#47 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:29 PM

Is that a bad thing? (DD)


It is a bad thing compared to a lossless audio track such as LPCM or Dolby TRUE HD audio.

If you have never heard a lossless audio track compared to a normal DD or DTS, find someone with blu-ray or HD-DVD and the ablilty to decode such a track and listen, you will be amazed at the difference. Hopefully I will be getting an HDMI home theater receiver in the next week so I will finally be able to listen to them at my own place.

#48 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:34 PM

Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360..



Completely false.

#49 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 03:16 PM

Magic won't be needed. Since the $100 price drop for the 60-gig, sales have picked up quite nicely for the PS3. In addition, the next 6-10 months are going to be very good to the PS3 game wise as most of the critics point to the lack of PS3 games and many exciting titles are soon to be released. I expect this Christmas and early 2008 to be a very productive selling period for it.

Once the 60-gigs sell out, the 80-gigs will drop down to $499 with the game/controller leaving the deal hence the $100 price drop.

With all that said, the 360's continual problems with the RROD is going to only get worse, imo, and I have nothing against the 360 as many of my friends have it. Microsoft has stated their newer models will fix the problem....we will see. I don't buy it. Neighbor has had to return his 360 for the 5th time...I repeat...5th time.

I think 2008/2009 will be very good years for Blu-Ray and Sony. PS2 sales are still quite good.



Exactly, price doesn't hurt the PS3 because it is a far superior machine. It has a BUILT IN advanced Blu-ray Disc player which also upscales regular DVDs. What does the 360 have? A plain old DVD player. Oh wait you can get an add-on HD DVD players for $200, so how much does that make your non-even-yet comparable system? PS3 isn't just a gaming machine like the 360 is. What percentage of PS3 have had to be returned for repair? MS has said that perhaps ALL of their 360 are flawed, already 33% have failed in about a year or less of operation. You get what you pay for. How many game titles can you play at one time? Do people really buy 100 game titles? I think most people buy a handful of their favorites and rent the rest and there will be plenty of titles to keep PS3 users busy, but most probably didn't buy it to just play kid games, they bought it as a Blu-ray Disc player, web browser and AVCHD disc player, Mp3 player....etc.... If you just want to play last generation games and don't mind your cheaper player breaking down in a year, then get a 360. If you want next generation games, sold player with tons of other features, then you'll buy quality and a PS3. Call me a fanboy of PS3s and of Blu-rays, but they are just the better options, so I prefer to call myself an intelligent boy grounded in facts not hype.
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#50 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:39 PM

http://www.hollywood...tail.php?id=106

on the orginal topic this guys says the trek maybe released on Blue-ray later

quote
Paramount did announce last week what initially appeared like a potential HD DVD exclusive -- the first season of the original "Star Trek" TV series. But Paramount execs quickly noted that while the series will initially be released only on HD DVD, a Blu-ray version is in the works as well.




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