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Could these HD-DVD Titles... help close the gap?


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109 replies to this topic

#21 ONLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 02:40 PM

This debate is ridiculous really. I just bought an Toshiba HD DVD player for $230 and I firmly believe my only risk is the player itself (and even then I have a decent upscaling DVD player). Which ever format wins the war, you can rest assured that the smart hardware manufacturers are going to support both media in their inevitable $99 players, for at least a few generations. I will not be stuck with useless HD DVD's any way you look at it.



History doesn't support this, though. There were no Beta/VHS combo units that helped Beta customers survive. Beta was dropped cold once it was dropped. There is no incentive for the winner in the war to support the "old" losing technology because you no longer have a choice but to buy the winner. IT wouldn't be cost-effective to try and support people's old already-bought movies once the war is won.

Also worth noting that some folks went for those LaserDisc players back in the day, and when that technology lost out people were left holding that bag too.

True, as long as you have your player you can play all your current stuff... but you'll have to buy a new player to play new stuff if your format loses, and it is unlikely that your future player will play your old stuff in the case of a format war.

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#22 OFFLINE   JMCecil

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 03:45 PM

HD-DVD had one advantage and that was price. But, when Warner decided to release primarily dual format disks that cost more than the BR equivalent, that pretty well did them in. I have an HD-DVD player, the Tosh XA2, and I like it as a DVD player. I won't buy the dual HD DVDs. That price is ridiculous.

HD-DVD will be around a lot longer than the older format wars because it isn't just about stand alone players anymore. But, Tosh has done pretty much everything they can to lose other than release a really great initial product.
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#23 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 04:00 PM

one thing we overlook is the European market, and HD-DVD has the lead there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19726219/
HD DVD outselling Blu-ray in Europe
Group claims 74 percent market share for stand-alone players

Updated: 6:16 a.m. MT July 12, 2007

FRANKFURT - HD DVD video players have outsold rival standard Blu-ray players by a three-to-one margin in Europe's main markets so far this year, according to a lobby group.

#24 ONLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 05:17 PM

One of the interesting things I've read about the European market... is that outside of the US, different corporations own rights to distributing movies than inside the US... So while a company in the US might be exclusively releasing their movies on Blu-Ray only... many of those movies in Europe are distributed by a different company, and in many cases those companies have embraced HD-DVD.

It makes things interesting, because unless Blu-Ray blows HD-DVD conclusively out of the water here in the US... HD-DVD sales in the rest of the world might demand that format continue.

I've seen things about both formats that I like, and wish there was one format settled with the best of both features. We didn't get that with Beta vs VHS, and in some ways an inferior product (VHS) survived and thrived. It is entirely possible history will repeat itself and the winner of this battle may or may not be the actual best product.

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#25 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:08 AM

One of the interesting things I've read about the European market... is that outside of the US, different corporations own rights to distributing movies than inside the US... So while a company in the US might be exclusively releasing their movies on Blu-Ray only... many of those movies in Europe are distributed by a different company, and in many cases those companies have embraced HD-DVD.

It makes things interesting, because unless Blu-Ray blows HD-DVD conclusively out of the water here in the US... HD-DVD sales in the rest of the world might demand that format continue.

I've seen things about both formats that I like, and wish there was one format settled with the best of both features. We didn't get that with Beta vs VHS, and in some ways an inferior product (VHS) survived and thrived. It is entirely possible history will repeat itself and the winner of this battle may or may not be the actual best product.


Name one feature that HD-DUD has that blu-ray doesn't do or can't do. Blu-rays can hold 50GB of info compared to the measly amount HD-DUDs can, so which format is more future proof? Which has more capabilities? The only , and only advantage with HD-DUDs in the beginning was the promise of lower production costs. that is out the window already and so there is NO, not one advantage now. P.S. HD-DUDs scratch about 100 time more easily than Blu-rays.
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#26 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 12:09 AM

one thing we overlook is the European market, and HD-DVD has the lead there.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19726219/
HD DVD outselling Blu-ray in Europe
Group claims 74 percent market share for stand-alone players

Updated: 6:16 a.m. MT July 12, 2007

FRANKFURT - HD DVD video players have outsold rival standard Blu-ray players by a three-to-one margin in Europe's main markets so far this year, according to a lobby group.



Stand alone player numbers are meaningless. That is like saying one format is winning in gray colored machines. PS3s are selling very well world wide and all of course are blu-ray players, In fact the best blu-ray player on the market. Hot like the piece of crap 360 add-on HD-DUD thing.
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#27 OFFLINE   Creeper04

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 07:53 AM

Stand alone player numbers are meaningless. That is like saying one format is winning in gray colored machines. PS3s are selling very well world wide and all of course are blu-ray players, In fact the best blu-ray player on the market. Hot like the piece of crap 360 add-on HD-DUD thing.


Jeeze, ebaltz, are you always this obnoxious? I'm fairly new the the forum here (second post actually) and frequently see a lot of good discussion. But your fanboy antics... yikes.

Taking one side of an issue can be done without continually insulting the other side. I totally get that you love the BR side of this argument. But the rhetoric is childish and annoying to the rest of us that can actually explore an issue without such behavior.

Feel free to flame me now... I'm sure that's a "Fanboy 101" requirement to getting called out. I probably won't be back for the colorful response; my loss I guess.

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#28 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 09:38 AM

HD DVD can hold 45 Gigabytes -- only 5 less than Blu-ray Disc. HD DVD players have interactive capability, something not available on present generation Blu-ray Disc players. HD DVD players have ethernet interfaces and can receive firmware updates from the internet, something not available from present generation Blu-ray players.
Regarding scratch resistance, in theory, HD DVD discs are more scratch resistant due to subsurface recording. Sony had to devise a protective coating to improve scratch resistance, which natively is inferior to HD DVD.

Blu-ray disc wins on number of studios supporting the format, with a huge advantage from Fox and Disney. Also, Blu-ray has more hardware manufacturers.
HD DVD is a more mature format (Blu-ray Disc standards are still not finalized).

As to the PS/3 --although playback quality is better than some standalone Blu-ray players, the control interface is primitive.

At present, Blu-ray is winning most of tthe battles, but the format war is far from over.

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#29 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:21 AM

Jeeze, ebaltz, are you always this obnoxious? I'm fairly new the the forum here (second post actually) and frequently see a lot of good discussion. But your fanboy antics... yikes.

Taking one side of an issue can be done without continually insulting the other side. I totally get that you love the BR side of this argument. But the rhetoric is childish and annoying to the rest of us that can actually explore an issue without such behavior.

Feel free to flame me now... I'm sure that's a "Fanboy 101" requirement to getting called out. I probably won't be back for the colorful response; my loss I guess.

:nono2:


No skin off my nose.

As for the facts Cholly, yours are just made up, totally not correct and trying to be skewed, so whose a fanboy, somebody who tells the truth or someone who lies to defend their inferior technology?
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#30 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 10:55 AM

HD DVD can hold 45 Gigabytes -- only 5 less than Blu-ray .


How many movies are using these Triple Layer HD-DVD's that haven't been finalized and are not in production?

Look at Blades of Glory for example.

The Blu-ray having a 50GB disc will get all the extras in HD AND lossless audio.
The HD-DVD having only a 30GB disc gets all the extras in HD but only Dolby Digital sound.

#31 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 11:11 AM

The HD-DVD having only a 30GB disc gets all the extras in HD but only Dolby Digital sound.


Is that a bad thing? (DD)

#32 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 30 July 2007 - 05:16 PM

I think these guys sum up the war pretty good

http://www.thedigita...soap060107.html

who's pay $217 for the trek HD-dvd

http://www.thedigita...com/#mytwocents

#33 OFFLINE   nfusion770

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:40 AM

History doesn't support this, though. There were no Beta/VHS combo units that helped Beta customers survive. Beta was dropped cold once it was dropped. There is no incentive for the winner in the war to support the "old" losing technology because you no longer have a choice but to buy the winner. IT wouldn't be cost-effective to try and support people's old already-bought movies once the war is won.

Also worth noting that some folks went for those LaserDisc players back in the day, and when that technology lost out people were left holding that bag too.

True, as long as you have your player you can play all your current stuff... but you'll have to buy a new player to play new stuff if your format loses, and it is unlikely that your future player will play your old stuff in the case of a format war.


I would consider DVD+r/rw, DVD-r/rw, DVD RAM (to a lesser extent)- etc as a more current and salient example. It won't be long before dual format drives are nearly as cheap and single format models. This trend will probably die out a few generations after the a winner is declared, but by that time- 5 years- most will have replaced their 10 loser media discs, with winner media discs via Christmas presents from aunt Martha and grandma.

I take the History lessons with a grain of salt, as electronics have never been so cheap and essentially disposable as they are today. Couple that with fact that hstory had nothing the likes of Walmart and the internet driving prices, and I think it's a fair bet my risk assessment is fairly reasonable.

I guess we'll see.

#34 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 09:38 AM

Today's Arizona Republic shows BD sales of 300 ahead of HD-DVD sales of 300. these are just for the Phoenix area. (pre-orders?)

#35 OFFLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:38 PM

http://www.thedigita...index.html#cema

here are some stats

#36 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 06:45 PM

Not sure where all those numbers come from exactly.

Amazon shows 429 Blu-ray titles and 382 HD-DVD, and MANY MANY more blu-rays announced. What should be compared is # of titles NOT available in a given format.
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#37 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:01 PM

60/40 BD. not too lopsided as one would think.
TOTAL BLU-RAY DISC TITLES (7/27/07 - DVD Release Report): 274/63*
TOTAL HD-DVD TITLES (7/27/07 - DVD Release Report): 259/47*
*Net total of R1 discs released/announced. Discontinued & adult not included.

HIGH-DEF MARKET SHARE - BRD VS HD-DVD SOFTWARE SALES (7/22/07 - Nielsen/VideoScan):
Week Ending 7/22 Blu-ray Disc: 74 HD-DVD: 26
Year to Date Blu-ray Disc: 67 HD-DVD: 33
Since Inception Blu-ray Disc: 60 HD-DVD: 40
Movie titles only (videogame titles not included) - Includes HD-DVD/DVD Combo Format

I have $500 burning a hole in my pocket, decisions decisions. or do I wait for Samsung's dual player?, Hmmm

#38 OFFLINE   DBS Commando

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Posted 31 July 2007 - 08:50 PM

From where I stand, this war can end in many ways. Here are my top 3 choices:

1. (the long way) 3 out of 4 homes in America will have HDTV's. When this happens, studios are going to notice a dip in DVD sales as everyone waits for a HD format to win. They will put 2 and 2 together and figure out some sort of agreement.

2. Dual format players take off and the consumer gets to enjoy every movie in HD while the feuding between the studios will continue for years to come. The quicker the price for the dual format players to drop below $200, the better.

3. A major retailer (such as Wal Mart) declares a format as a winner and only stocks those types of players. Like it or not, Wal Mart is now plays a big part in the life of an average American. As soon as they get cheap players on the shelves, people will jump for them. If Wal Mart were to say Blu Ray is the winner tomorrow, then it would most certainly be so.

#39 ONLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 12:32 AM

One problem with HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray is the age-old chicken vs the egg situation that applies to technology that requires software.

Way back in the day the Amiga was a nice computer from the Commodore company... but it died in large part due to lack of software support. So if you bought an Amiga, it didn't matter how good it was, no software meant you got bored with it.

Similar thing happened with the 3DO video game console.. it was an early home gaming system that supported games via CD... but once Sega had a CD add-on and other companies, Sony with Playstation in particular, came out with similar systems the 3DO found itself without much software support and the customers went elsewhere.

So... which player are customers going to buy? HD-DVD or Blu-Ray? Until the customers speak by purchasing substantially more of one than the other... the movie studios will continue to hedge which one to release their movies for playing... and until customers choose, the war continues.

Personally, I see this as a big mess. I can't remember if CDs had anything similar competing as they tried to take over from vinyl... but in the early DVD days there was support for DIVX (not the same one now that is an encoder) and that caused some stalls in the early game... but folks quickly saw DIVX as a dead-end as customers went towards normal DVD.

Thus far, no clear winner has surfaced... and personally, the longer this drags out the greater chance there is of another competing technology to come about that will beat both formats.

Think about TVs... Used to be just CRTs, but now we have LCDs, Plasmas, DLPs, and some new formats on the horizon. From the customer perspective all of these TVs "work" the same in that they display a picture.. and you don't have to buy a certain TV for Dish or another for DirecTV.. just buy your TV and plug it in... so these other TV technologies can flourish until the best/cheapest one wins out in the long run.

But HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are mutually exclusive. You can't play one on the other... you have to choose. Those multi-format players are mega-bucks and sacrifice some of the features of the formats in trying to be universal so it's not really a good answer either.

This is just a big mess, and I'm waiting to see how it settles out before I put any money into a potentially dead format.

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#40 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 01:45 AM

From where I stand, this war can end in many ways. Here are my top 3 choices:

1. (the long way) 3 out of 4 homes in America will have HDTV's. When this happens, studios are going to notice a dip in DVD sales as everyone waits for a HD format to win. They will put 2 and 2 together and figure out some sort of agreement.

2. Dual format players take off and the consumer gets to enjoy every movie in HD while the feuding between the studios will continue for years to come. The quicker the price for the dual format players to drop below $200, the better.

3. A major retailer (such as Wal Mart) declares a format as a winner and only stocks those types of players. Like it or not, Wal Mart is now plays a big part in the life of an average American. As soon as they get cheap players on the shelves, people will jump for them. If Wal Mart were to say Blu Ray is the winner tomorrow, then it would most certainly be so.


1. As DVD sales drop-off it may lead to the new format, or...it may bring about the era of downloaded movies and disc are irrelevant.

2. Maybe. But they are very expensive now, and that probably won't change because of the royalties involved, and besides MOST manufactures support Blu-ray, and there is really no incentive for them to add a fading format like DVD-HD

3. This has already happened. Target will only stock and sell Blu-ray players. Blockbuster will only stock and rent Blu-rays from its stores. Another recent retailer has also made the decision to go Blu-ray only. The pieces are falling into place and Blu-ray is winning every one of them. On top of that the majority of manufacturing support, a superior gaming machine with built in blu-ray, the vast majority of studios supporting Blu-ray, including the most important for sales, in my opinion, Disney, since they do so well in DVD sales. Kids have to have the movies they want, and if they are only in Blu-ray, guess which player mom and dad are buying.
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