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Guest Message by DevFuse

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Could these HD-DVD Titles... help close the gap?


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109 replies to this topic

#41 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:02 AM

I'm going to have to backup a bit here... and re-state my position as I realize now what I initially said was not exactly what I meant to say.

Let me define first "critical mass" as being the time when product B overtakes product A and essentially wipes it out of the competition. VHS vs Beta was ultimately a 10-12 year or so battle before Beta officially handed in the towel, but the critical mass happened a few years earlier before Sony saw the light and threw in the towel.

DVD vs VHS is still technically going on because VCRs are still in the marketplace and manufacturers are still making consumer units... so we are in roughly year 10 of this battle. If things hold true to form, it may go another couple of years before manufacturers finally throw in the towel and stop making new VCRs. Of course part of this is due to TiVo and other PVR/DVR units, but that muddies the waters so I'll leave that out of this discussion.

Now... While the protracted Beta vs VHS battle was 10-12 years before Beta was formally wiped out... the actual overtaking happened before that, just as is the case now with DVD vs VHS, with DVD having overtaken a few years ago.

It also happens that DVD reaching "critical mass" happened sooner than VHS knocking out Beta so the statements about DVD reaching the controlling marketshare are true.

But what I was referring to was the time before that... When Beta and VHS came out, there was nothing else for the home user to buy... so immediately people who could afford either Beta or VHS bought one. But when DVD came out, VHS was a long-established consumer product so there was not the same drive for the customer to try a new product. DVD, aside from early adopters, sat around a bit in its first few years not getting a lot of shelf space or consumer adoption.

However, once people started really taking notice of all that DVD offered, it took off like gangbusters. So if we were plotting curves... Beta/VHS was a small spike then solid increasing volume over a long period of time... whereas DVD was semi-flatlined then a little growth then an explosion.

Folks were not resistant to VHS/Beta because they wanted this in the home... Those same folks were resistant to DVD because they already had a device that did what DVD offered, and DVD didn't let you record so you lost a feature! BUT once people took notice, DVD went nuts.

So... I believe it is both true that DVD took longer to initially adopt than VHS AND also true that it took over the market faster than VHS did.

Summarizing... VHS was adopted quicker as it had no opposition, DVD opposed VHS and it took a while to break-through... but once the breakthrough happened DVD penetrated the market much faster and more thoroughly than VHS did.

I hope that helps make my thoughts more clear and less conflicting with the sales data.


Interesting concept taking the VHS/Beta war and extending it then into a VHS/DVD war. While it seems to be true that DVDs are the fastest technology to go from zero to mass acceptance, you're points about replacing an older technology are intriguing.

But... just as you state that Beta lost years before it actually stopped, VHS could be said to have lost several years ago as well. When Blockbuster, walmart, and studios stopped selling or renting VHS recordings. I completely disagree that DVD vs. VHS is still ongoing; that war is definitely over. VHS is not going to regain popularity. :)

Just so, HD-DVD and Blu-ray is still an active war. While both claim to have won, neither really has done so--either still can make a sudden run yet.

Cheers,
Tom

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My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#42 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 06:29 AM

Back to the OP's question, will it help sell HD DVD's. From http://www.thedigita...140.html#snyder

"At once point, I asked the audience for a show of hands to see how many people would be interested in purchasing the set at that price. Out of the entire 500-strong audience (and keep in mind, these were not just casual Trek fans but major Trek über-fans), just THREE people raised their hands. Just three. CBS/Paramount is going to eat this release if they stick to the $217 price tag. Given that many Trek fans already have mixed feelings about the whole Remastered effort, $217 is just crazy - it'll be a poison pill for this release if it doesn't change between now and November. Ouch!"

I think there's his answer.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#43 OFFLINE   DawgLink

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:28 AM

If anything, I see Blu-Ray expanding their lead in the next year or two.

The PS3's are really going to take off in the next 2 years, imo, and its only going to help the Blu-Ray Sales.

#44 ONLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 09:03 AM

Back to the OP's question, will it help sell HD DVD's. From http://www.thedigita...140.html#snyder

"At once point, I asked the audience for a show of hands to see how many people would be interested in purchasing the set at that price. Out of the entire 500-strong audience (and keep in mind, these were not just casual Trek fans but major Trek über-fans), just THREE people raised their hands. Just three. CBS/Paramount is going to eat this release if they stick to the $217 price tag. Given that many Trek fans already have mixed feelings about the whole Remastered effort, $217 is just crazy - it'll be a poison pill for this release if it doesn't change between now and November. Ouch!"

I think there's his answer.


yeah i read that too. thought that was funny. :D

#45 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 10:34 AM

If anything, I see Blu-Ray expanding their lead in the next year or two.

The PS3's are really going to take off in the next 2 years, imo, and its only going to help the Blu-Ray Sales.


Sony is going to have to pull off some magic in order to make this happen. Price has hurt them tremendously, and until they get the price down, sales aren't going to take off. Further, the PS/3 suffers from a lack of software titles. Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360.

Regarding dual format players: If I were to go for both formats, I'd get two separate players -- probably the Toshiba HD-A20 for HD DVD, and the Sony BDP-S300 for Blu-ray Disc.

:listenup: Please note: The proper names for the two formats are HD DVD (no hyphen) and Blu-ray Disc (lower case "R", and includes the word "Disc").

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Family Room: Sony KDFE-55A20 55" LCD RPTV; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVoRoamio Plus, LG BH200 HD DVD/Blu-ray player via HDMI to AVR
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#46 OFFLINE   DawgLink

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 01:45 PM

Sony is going to have to pull off some magic in order to make this happen. Price has hurt them tremendously, and until they get the price down, sales aren't going to take off. Further, the PS/3 suffers from a lack of software titles. Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360.

Regarding dual format players: If I were to go for both formats, I'd get two separate players -- probably the Toshiba HD-A20 for HD DVD, and the Sony BDP-S300 for Blu-ray Disc.

:listenup: Please note: The proper names for the two formats are HD DVD (no hyphen) and Blu-ray Disc (lower case "R", and includes the word "Disc").


Magic won't be needed. Since the $100 price drop for the 60-gig, sales have picked up quite nicely for the PS3. In addition, the next 6-10 months are going to be very good to the PS3 game wise as most of the critics point to the lack of PS3 games and many exciting titles are soon to be released. I expect this Christmas and early 2008 to be a very productive selling period for it.

Once the 60-gigs sell out, the 80-gigs will drop down to $499 with the game/controller leaving the deal hence the $100 price drop.

With all that said, the 360's continual problems with the RROD is going to only get worse, imo, and I have nothing against the 360 as many of my friends have it. Microsoft has stated their newer models will fix the problem....we will see. I don't buy it. Neighbor has had to return his 360 for the 5th time...I repeat...5th time.

I think 2008/2009 will be very good years for Blu-Ray and Sony. PS2 sales are still quite good.

#47 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:29 PM

Is that a bad thing? (DD)


It is a bad thing compared to a lossless audio track such as LPCM or Dolby TRUE HD audio.

If you have never heard a lossless audio track compared to a normal DD or DTS, find someone with blu-ray or HD-DVD and the ablilty to decode such a track and listen, you will be amazed at the difference. Hopefully I will be getting an HDMI home theater receiver in the next week so I will finally be able to listen to them at my own place.

#48 OFFLINE   Amon37

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 02:34 PM

Major publishers are avoiding the system due to low sales potential as compared to the Wii and XBox360..



Completely false.

#49 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 03:16 PM

Magic won't be needed. Since the $100 price drop for the 60-gig, sales have picked up quite nicely for the PS3. In addition, the next 6-10 months are going to be very good to the PS3 game wise as most of the critics point to the lack of PS3 games and many exciting titles are soon to be released. I expect this Christmas and early 2008 to be a very productive selling period for it.

Once the 60-gigs sell out, the 80-gigs will drop down to $499 with the game/controller leaving the deal hence the $100 price drop.

With all that said, the 360's continual problems with the RROD is going to only get worse, imo, and I have nothing against the 360 as many of my friends have it. Microsoft has stated their newer models will fix the problem....we will see. I don't buy it. Neighbor has had to return his 360 for the 5th time...I repeat...5th time.

I think 2008/2009 will be very good years for Blu-Ray and Sony. PS2 sales are still quite good.



Exactly, price doesn't hurt the PS3 because it is a far superior machine. It has a BUILT IN advanced Blu-ray Disc player which also upscales regular DVDs. What does the 360 have? A plain old DVD player. Oh wait you can get an add-on HD DVD players for $200, so how much does that make your non-even-yet comparable system? PS3 isn't just a gaming machine like the 360 is. What percentage of PS3 have had to be returned for repair? MS has said that perhaps ALL of their 360 are flawed, already 33% have failed in about a year or less of operation. You get what you pay for. How many game titles can you play at one time? Do people really buy 100 game titles? I think most people buy a handful of their favorites and rent the rest and there will be plenty of titles to keep PS3 users busy, but most probably didn't buy it to just play kid games, they bought it as a Blu-ray Disc player, web browser and AVCHD disc player, Mp3 player....etc.... If you just want to play last generation games and don't mind your cheaper player breaking down in a year, then get a 360. If you want next generation games, sold player with tons of other features, then you'll buy quality and a PS3. Call me a fanboy of PS3s and of Blu-rays, but they are just the better options, so I prefer to call myself an intelligent boy grounded in facts not hype.
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#50 ONLINE   Christopher Gould

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Posted 01 August 2007 - 08:39 PM

http://www.hollywood...tail.php?id=106

on the orginal topic this guys says the trek maybe released on Blue-ray later

quote
Paramount did announce last week what initially appeared like a potential HD DVD exclusive -- the first season of the original "Star Trek" TV series. But Paramount execs quickly noted that while the series will initially be released only on HD DVD, a Blu-ray version is in the works as well.

#51 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 09:49 AM

No skin off my nose.

As for the facts Cholly, yours are just made up, totally not correct and trying to be skewed, so whose a fanboy, somebody who tells the truth or someone who lies to defend their inferior technology?


I suggest you read some articles in industry publications before you criticize other peoples' posts. Everything I said has come from industry websites, AVSForum, and newspaper or magazine articles. You should also note that I've NOT badmouthed Blu-ray Disc. In all probability, I'll buy a Blu-ray player when they are more affordable.
One of my sons has a PS/3 and complains bitterly about the fact that it doesn't come with a remote for playing Blu-ray Disc media (it's an aftermarket option :( ). This is the same kind of dumb thing that Microsoft did with the original XBox.

Amon37 -- I stand by my comment about publishers concentrating on the Wii and XBox 360 rather than the PS/3. Electronic Arts, for example, has postponed development/release of several titles. Once again, I got this information from several online sites -- not from Sony. By the way -- Dolby True HD is supported by both formats, and as you implied, a surround receiver with HDMI inputs and True HD decoder is required so you can appreciate the sound quality offered by that format.

Before you gents throw stones, check a little further.

Charlie
--------------------

Family Room: Sony KDFE-55A20 55" LCD RPTV; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVoRoamio Plus, LG BH200 HD DVD/Blu-ray player via HDMI to AVR
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#52 OFFLINE   machavez00

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:01 AM

Exactly, price doesn't hurt the PS3 because it is a far superior machine. It has a BUILT IN advanced Blu-ray Disc player which also upscales regular DVDs. What does the 360 have? A plain old DVD player. Oh wait you can get an add-on HD DVD players for $200, so how much does that make your non-even-yet comparable system? PS3 isn't just a gaming machine like the 360 is. What percentage of PS3 have had to be returned for repair? MS has said that perhaps ALL of their 360 are flawed, already 33% have failed in about a year or less of operation. You get what you pay for. How many game titles can you play at one time? Do people really buy 100 game titles? I think most people buy a handful of their favorites and rent the rest and there will be plenty of titles to keep PS3 users busy, but most probably didn't buy it to just play kid games, they bought it as a Blu-ray Disc player, web browser and AVCHD disc player, Mp3 player....etc.... If you just want to play last generation games and don't mind your cheaper player breaking down in a year, then get a 360. If you want next generation games, sold player with tons of other features, then you'll buy quality and a PS3. Call me a fanboy of PS3s and of Blu-rays, but they are just the better options, so I prefer to call myself an intelligent boy grounded in facts not hype.


One of my coworkers has both a PS3 and an XBox 360 with the HD DVD add on. In his opinion the Xbox is a better game console and HD movies look better on the 360 than they do on the PS3. Again his opinion, not mine. I don't play game enough to buy either one, and am averse to anything Microsquash.

#53 OFFLINE   harsh

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:18 AM

They're both niche formats like SACD and DVD-A.

In 3 years we will have dual-format players for $200 or less and think back humorously about this whole "format war".

Do such players exist for SACD and DVD-A? Did either format offer a clearly discernible difference versus CD?

Until such time as a full-featured dual format player is available at a price that isn't more than the cost of two full-featured standalone units, I think it unsafe to suggest that it will be the future.

#54 OFFLINE   RAD

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 10:27 AM

Do such players exist for SACD and DVD-A? Did either format offer a clearly discernible difference versus CD?

Yes, Pioneer had a combo SACD/DVD-A/DVD player, I got one at BB for $150 and they threw in two free SACD's. They really sounded great but the selection sucked, got tired of trying to find something I wanted to purchase again in one of the new formats, finally gave up and the player is sitting in a closet somewhere.

See post My Setup for configuration info.


#55 OFFLINE   DawgLink

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 11:25 AM

One of my coworkers has both a PS3 and an XBox 360 with the HD DVD add on. In his opinion the Xbox is a better game console and HD movies look better on the 360 than they do on the PS3. Again his opinion, not mine. I don't play game enough to buy either one, and am averse to anything Microsquash.


Right now, I don't think it is any question the 360 is and has been the best "Game Console" and in terms of variety...will be for another year. They have had more games out then any other console for their newer console and been doing a good job getting the games out to the market. I credit Microsoft for that. Big question rests on whether the 360 will last over/under 6-12 months before you get a RROD.

With that said, I find that my PS3 is a much better home-console for my DVD needs. That is just my opinion though. I think the Blu-Ray titles and others play perfectly on my 1080p TV.

It will be an interesting next 6 months in the video game world.

#56 OFFLINE   Cholly

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 11:29 AM

Update on audio streaming over HDMI from HDTV Magazine today:
http://www.hdtvmagaz...ef_dvd_-_au.php

If I read the article correctly, none of the current players support streamed Dolby Digital Plus pass through (the current crop isn't HDMI 1.3 compatible). However, they support DTS-HD. Further, to play Dolby Digital Plus, you have to have a surround receiver that has HDMI 1.3 input and decoder.
So, it's left to next generation players to support Dolby Digital Plus in all its glory.

Charlie
--------------------

Family Room: Sony KDFE-55A20 55" LCD RPTV; Yamaha RX-V663 AVR. Paradigm speakers - Focus fronts, CC170 center, PDR-8 subwoofer, Atom surrounds, ADP rear center; TiVoRoamio Plus, LG BH200 HD DVD/Blu-ray player via HDMI to AVR
Bedroom: Vizio 42" 3D TV, Pioneer VSX-521-K AVR, Panasonic 3D DVD player, Energy Take Classic 5.1 speakers, Roku 2 XD, TiVo Premiere, Insignia HD radio tuner, Toshiba HD DVD player


#57 OFFLINE   ebaltz

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:26 PM

I suggest you read some articles in industry publications before you criticize other peoples' posts. Everything I said has come from industry websites, AVSForum, and newspaper or magazine articles. You should also note that I've NOT badmouthed Blu-ray Disc. In all probability, I'll buy a Blu-ray player when they are more affordable.
One of my sons has a PS/3 and complains bitterly about the fact that it doesn't come with a remote for playing Blu-ray Disc media (it's an aftermarket option :( ). This is the same kind of dumb thing that Microsoft did with the original XBox.

Amon37 -- I stand by my comment about publishers concentrating on the Wii and XBox 360 rather than the PS/3. Electronic Arts, for example, has postponed development/release of several titles. Once again, I got this information from several online sites -- not from Sony. By the way -- Dolby True HD is supported by both formats, and as you implied, a surround receiver with HDMI inputs and True HD decoder is required so you can appreciate the sound quality offered by that format.

Before you gents throw stones, check a little further.




And where did these "facts" come from (please document):

"HD DVD can hold 45 Gigabytes -- only 5 less than Blu-ray Disc"


To my knowledge BD holds 50 (at present, in the works is a BD that holds 200+) and HD DVD holds 30. That would be 20GB less or 60% less. Gaming developers and studios are already claiming they are running up against the size limitations of HD DVD.

But lets drop the discussion for now, and return to it 1/1/2008 and see where things are. I'll bookmark this thread for then.
Dish HD w/ 1 Hopper and 3 Joey, PS3, Sony HN1000 Receiver and Sony Bravia HX800 3D TV

#58 OFFLINE   Stewart Vernon

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 12:38 PM

To my knowledge BD holds 50 (at present, in the works is a BD that holds 200+) and HD DVD holds 30. That would be 20GB less or 60% less.


Actually... I thought HD-DVD single layer was 15 GB. Then dual layer came out and held 30 GB. I thought triple layer was going to get to 45 GB, but have not heard if that is feasible or available yet.

Blu-Ray single layer is 25 GB for single layer, and 50 GB for dual layer. I am not sure if there is a triple layer Blu-Ray in the works.

FYI, I edited this post after researching Blu-Ray. I had originally posted Blu-Ray was 50 GB from the start, but realized I was incorrect after researching single vs dual layer.

End result... Blu-Ray has more capacity per layer than HD-DVD, though HD-DVD has tried to leap-frog and close the gap.

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#59 OFFLINE   msmith198025

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 02:20 PM

You just keep on dreaming. Blu-ray beats DVD-HD in every way possible, and anyone with a brain knows it. Let homeless people by the cheapo players at walmart and the rest of us enjoy the actual quality of Blu-ray and its superior format. In a year or so people will be asking what DVD-HD is. But you go ahead and enjoy your non-next gen format and your limited titles. The rest of us know the reality.


I have both and really the PQ is identical in both IMO. Really, being insulting doesnt help does it?

#60 OFFLINE   msmith198025

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Posted 02 August 2007 - 02:38 PM

Exactly, price doesn't hurt the PS3 because it is a far superior machine. It has a BUILT IN advanced Blu-ray Disc player which also upscales regular DVDs. What does the 360 have? A plain old DVD player. Oh wait you can get an add-on HD DVD players for $200, so how much does that make your non-even-yet comparable system? PS3 isn't just a gaming machine like the 360 is. What percentage of PS3 have had to be returned for repair? MS has said that perhaps ALL of their 360 are flawed, already 33% have failed in about a year or less of operation. You get what you pay for. How many game titles can you play at one time? Do people really buy 100 game titles? I think most people buy a handful of their favorites and rent the rest and there will be plenty of titles to keep PS3 users busy, but most probably didn't buy it to just play kid games, they bought it as a Blu-ray Disc player, web browser and AVCHD disc player, Mp3 player....etc.... If you just want to play last generation games and don't mind your cheaper player breaking down in a year, then get a 360. If you want next generation games, sold player with tons of other features, then you'll buy quality and a PS3. Call me a fanboy of PS3s and of Blu-rays, but they are just the better options, so I prefer to call myself an intelligent boy grounded in facts not hype.


While you may believe that you arent a fanboy, you come across as one.
Not trying to argue with ya, just thought you might want to know.:)




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