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"KEEP AT MOST" still an issue?


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32 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 02:06 PM

Can anyone confirm that "Never auto-delete a program marked as "keep", even if the "keep at most" number is exceeded." is still an issue that needs to remain on the Wish List?

This request is on the list because at one time "kept" episodes were being deleted when the total number exceeded the SERIES LINK limit. Not sure if that's still the case, and I'd like to confirm. TIA. /s
/steve

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#2 OFFLINE   shendley

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 07:31 PM

Whenever I use "keep until I delete" it just adds shows regardless of the number I've selected as the upper limit to keep. So, from my experience, I would think it should be removed from the wish list. Would be curious, though, to hear if anyone else is having a problem with this.

Can anyone confirm that "Never auto-delete a program marked as "keep", even if the "keep at most" number is exceeded." is still an issue that needs to remain on the Wish List?

This request is on the list because at one time "kept" episodes were being deleted when the total number exceeded the SERIES LINK limit. Not sure if that's still the case, and I'd like to confirm. TIA. /s


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#3 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 07:43 PM

Whenever I use "keep until I delete" it just adds shows regardless of the number I've selected as the upper limit to keep. So, from my experience, I would think it should be removed from the wish list. Would be curious, though, to hear if anyone else is having a problem with this.

Are you saying that when you 'keep' a show, the number to keep is no longer respected at all... as if you selected "ALL" as the SERIES LINK option?

If so, we should probably report it as an issue. /s
/steve

#4 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 12 August 2007 - 08:17 PM

As far as I can see, I've had no issues with this lately, it keeps the number it should and I have yet to see one autodelete. I very rarely get to the point where it needs to delete to make space, so maybe it's the luck of the draw.
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#5 OFFLINE   shendley

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:21 PM

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure it's behaving that way as I originally wanted it to behave the way I think the OP was describing - auto deleting the oldest show with a keep until I delete to make room for a new recording when there was a limit being exceeded on the number of recordings allowed for that series. But I didn't think this was an issue so much as a problem of logic, if you will. If I set up a series link to 1) record either new episodes of a series or both new episodes and reruns and 2) tell it to keep all recordings of this series until I delete and 3) keep at most 5 recordings of this show I've given it conflicting instructions when it finds itself confronted with a 6th episode to record. When I've got 5 recordings of that series and a new episode comes up to be recorded, the machine has to ignore one of those instructions. It could ignore 1) and simply not record any more episodes of the series, ignore 2) and start deleting some episodes that have been marked keep until I delete to make room for the newest episode to be recorded and respect the limit of keeping at most 5, or ignore 3) and simply add new recordings of the series, forgetting about the limit. After having thought about it, I'm actually okay with my maching 'choosing' option 3. I think the first two instructions are more important, at least to me, than the third since I can always come in and clean out a few recordings if I believe I'm keeping too many of them.

Are you saying that when you 'keep' a show, the number to keep is no longer respected at all... as if you selected "ALL" as the SERIES LINK option?

If so, we should probably report it as an issue. /s


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#6 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 01:27 PM

Agree. Better too many shows than losing one you haven't watched. I think I can take that item off the Wish List. /steve
/steve

#7 OFFLINE   Milominderbinder2

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:09 PM

It is working for me.

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#8 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 13 August 2007 - 05:38 PM

It is working for me.

D* must have fixed it and no one noticed because it's a difficult bug to track.

Thanks D*! Another item off the Wish List! :) /s
/steve

#9 OFFLINE   Mark_M

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 07:16 PM

D* must have fixed it and no one noticed because it's a difficult bug to track.

Thanks D*! Another item off the Wish List! :) /s


I am the person who originally requested that this item be added to the whishlist as an issue. I believe it is not fixed and should remain on the list.

I just tested this over the last two days and it is still not working correctly for me. I am running at the national release 0x17e.

I usually like to have a couple of "Barney & Friends" for my granddaughter when she comes for a visit. This show airs two times per day on Channel 295 Sprout.

Here is the test I used.

I set my HR20-700 for a series link as follows:
Episode Type: "Both"
Keep at most: 2
Keep until: "I Delete"

Two episodes were recorded on 8/14 and shown in My Playlist with the circle K when I got home on 8/14.

On 8/15 the two shows in My Playlist from 8/14 were automatically deleted and replaced with two new shows that played on 8/15. So I am not seeing the results that some of you have listed like extra episodes. IMHO KUID should work like the D* Tivo's did. Record the two episodes & not record any new shows or delete them automatically under any circumstances unless you would manually delete them yourself. Neither should it delete a program if the "Keep at most" limit is exceeded.

Is it possible that some of you are running on CE releases and they just possibly fixed this and I haven’t seen the fix yet? I can’t verify this if that is the case. But if you are on the same release as me and we are getting different results than that would really be bizarre. I will continue to test this over the next few days and report back.
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#10 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 08:39 PM

I am the person who originally requested that this item be added to the whishlist as an issue. I believe it is not fixed and should remain on the list.

I just tested this over the last two days and it is still not working correctly for me. I am running at the national release 0x17e.

I usually like to have a couple of "Barney & Friends" for my granddaughter when she comes for a visit. This show airs two times per day on Channel 295 Sprout.

Here is the test I used.

I set my HR20-700 for a series link as follows:
Episode Type: "Both"
Keep at most: 2
Keep until: "I Delete"

Two episodes were recorded on 8/14 and shown in My Playlist with the circle K when I got home on 8/14.

On 8/15 the two shows in My Playlist from 8/14 were automatically deleted and replaced with two new shows that played on 8/15. So I am not seeing the results that some of you have listed like extra episodes. IMHO KUID should work like the D* Tivo's did. Record the two episodes & not record any new shows or delete them automatically under any circumstances unless you would manually delete them yourself. Neither should it delete a program if the "Keep at most" limit is exceeded.

Is it possible that some of you are running on CE releases and they just possibly fixed this and I haven’t seen the fix yet? I can’t verify this if that is the case. But if you are on the same release as me and we are getting different results than that would really be bizarre. I will continue to test this over the next few days and report back.

Thanks, Mark. Please keep us posted. I can restore it to the list if need be.

I to agree with you. An item marked as KEEP should never be deleted under any circumstances. What happens to other new episodes that might want to record after that show is kept should be the only thing open to debate, IMO.

So in you example, with 2 shows on disk already marked as "keep" and the "keep at most #" set to 2, what do folks think? Should the 3d episode not be recorded, until one of the 2 kept shows is deleted by the user? Or should D* ignore the fact that 2 episodes are being kept, and treat the next 2 episodes as if they were the only two it has to worry about?

Interesting question. Looking forward to your comments. /s
/steve

#11 OFFLINE   Stuart Sweet

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:00 PM

I can see both sides of this question. Here's my opinion, nothing more.

KEEP AT MOST should refer to the total number of episodes including those manually kept. If you say 5, and you've manually kept 4, then it records 1 and stops. Speaking for me, that is the most sensible.

Those who read my posts know that I don't generally fall back on "That's how TiVo did it, so I like it". However in this case I think TiVo's implementation is the most sensible to the most users and the HR20's should mirror it.
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#12 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:18 PM

Probably the behavior most users would expect as well, I reckon, which is another compelling argument to do it Mark and LC's way. /s
/steve

#13 OFFLINE   shendley

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 09:19 PM

I don't think the behavior I'm seeing on my machine where it just ignores the "Keep at Most . . ." command is a function of CE releases. I think - though I can't say for sure - that this is the way it's worked for me for quite a while now.

As for how I'd like it to behave, I still believe that in most circumstances the most sensible thing for it to do is to ignore the "Keep at Most . . ." command. You wind up with more episodes but at least it doesn't 1) delete something you may have wanted to watch and 2) not record something you may have wanted to watch. The only occasion I can foresee that I would not like it to work like this is when they do marathons of particular shows, showing 15 hours of a series in one day.

Though this might be too complicated to implement, the ideal would probably be for it to behave the way that it is on my machine when you don't have an upper limit on the "Keep Until I Delete" option and to simply stop recording episodes if you do.

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#14 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 10:03 PM

I am the person who originally requested that this item be added to the whishlist as an issue. I believe it is not fixed and should remain on the list.

I just tested this over the last two days and it is still not working correctly for me. I am running at the national release 0x17e.

I usually like to have a couple of "Barney & Friends" for my granddaughter when she comes for a visit. This show airs two times per day on Channel 295 Sprout.

Here is the test I used.

I set my HR20-700 for a series link as follows:
Episode Type: "Both"
Keep at most: 2
Keep until: "I Delete"

Two episodes were recorded on 8/14 and shown in My Playlist with the circle K when I got home on 8/14.

On 8/15 the two shows in My Playlist from 8/14 were automatically deleted and replaced with two new shows that played on 8/15. So I am not seeing the results that some of you have listed like extra episodes. IMHO KUID should work like the D* Tivo's did. Record the two episodes & not record any new shows or delete them automatically under any circumstances unless you would manually delete them yourself. Neither should it delete a program if the "Keep at most" limit is exceeded.

Is it possible that some of you are running on CE releases and they just possibly fixed this and I haven’t seen the fix yet? I can’t verify this if that is the case. But if you are on the same release as me and we are getting different results than that would really be bizarre. I will continue to test this over the next few days and report back.


The behavior I am experiencing differs from yours, but I'm also using things differently. For quite some time now, over many releases, items I have manually set as Keep have not been flushed either from a group or from normal purge process to free space. But the key here is I've manually set items within a group as Keep. I do not have them set automatically in the recording process--that might be a key.

My experiences are also that it continues to record new episodes, allowing the group to grow to the sum of the KUID plus the KAM entries (which rotate as new items record.)

Cheers,
Tom

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#15 OFFLINE   Doug Brott

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Posted 15 August 2007 - 10:43 PM

I agree with Mark I think.

For a Series Link setup, I would expect KUID and KAM to work together. If KUID >= KAM, then there should be zero new records scheduled as part of the Series Link. However, if it is recorded manually, that changes things slightly - it should record despite the KAM setting. In any event, both manual and SL recordings of a program should count in the KUID and KAM values - to me, there is no reason to distinguish

Now, in my few minutes thinking about this, I can see how it can get discombobulated real quick. There are a lot of things that need to be considered.

Here's the thought: leave it on the list as it doesn't seem to be fixed ..

now the Challenge:
Let's try to come up with what we think the Algorithm/plan should be for this noting the various incantations. I think we need some more technical thoughts about how we want it implemented - something we can all agree to or at least form a consensus about.
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#16 OFFLINE   mtnagel

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:32 AM

But the key here is I've manually set items within a group as Keep. I do not have them set automatically in the recording process--that might be a key.

That's what I was going to say. I believe it has always been the case where there is a difference if you set up the KUID in the SL or if you do it manually with the blue button in the playlist although I haven't thoroughly tested it.
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#17 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 05:53 AM

That's what I was going to say. I believe it has always been the case where there is a difference if you set up the KUID in the SL or if you do it manually with the blue button in the playlist although I haven't thoroughly tested it.

So if we can verify that this is what's going on, that's really the issue that needs to be reported in the "Bugs or Features" section of the Wish List:

KUID behaves differently, depending on how a show is marked as "keep".

My explanation for this would be: A show marked as kept should never be auto-deleted, under any circumstances, and any shows already marked as "kept" should be included in the max episode count.

I think this is the behavior most users will expect, and will result in the least customer service calls on this issue. Just my .02.

This also makes the Increase the number of episodes of a SERIES LINK to keep. "1,2,3,5,10, ALL" request that much more meaningful. /s
/steve

#18 OFFLINE   Mark_M

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 07:10 AM

The behavior I am experiencing differs from yours, but I'm also using things differently. For quite some time now, over many releases, items I have manually set as Keep have not been flushed either from a group or from normal purge process to free space. But the key here is I've manually set items within a group as Keep. I do not have them set automatically in the recording process--that might be a key.

My experiences are also that it continues to record new episodes, allowing the group to grow to the sum of the KUID plus the KAM entries (which rotate as new items record.)

Cheers,
Tom


That's what I was going to say. I believe it has always been the case where there is a difference if you set up the KUID in the SL or if you do it manually with the blue button in the playlist although I haven't thoroughly tested it.


I completely agree with Tom & Matt's observation here. It’s only when I set the SL to KUID that I have a problem with the way it works.

To illustrate, if I set it up similar to Tom & Matt’s example it would look like this:
Episode Type: "Both"
Keep at most: 5
Keep until: "Disk Full" (as opposed to "I Delete")

Then when I manually mark two in the playlist as KUID it will keep the two and only replace the three remaining slots on a rotating basis.

I agree in that case that is the way it should work.

Now if I set s SL with the Keep until: as KUID and it would keep the episodes and allow the KAM to expand that has some advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is that you don't miss any new recordings. The disadvantage is that if this is a SL and you expected it to stop recording then it may trump any lower priority SL. If it stops then it is taken out the priorty until something is deleted and allows lower priority SL to not be trumped.

Increase the number of episodes of a SERIES LINK to keep. "1,2,3,5,10, ALL" request that much more meaningful. /s


I definitely would also like to see the KAM increased.
Mark
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#19 OFFLINE   Steve

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 08:52 AM

Now if I set s SL with the Keep until: as KUID and it would keep the episodes and allow the KAM to expand that has some advantages and disadvantages. One advantage is that you don't miss any new recordings. The disadvantage is that if this is a SL and you expected it to stop recording then it may trump any lower priority SL. If it stops then it is taken out the priorty until something is deleted and allows lower priority SL to not be trumped.

The other disadvantage is if the KAM number is exceeded, you run the risk of filling up your disk and other shows you haven't watched being deleted. Especially if you have a KUID SL for something like L&O on TNTHD, and they decide to run a marathon one day and you didn't know it was coming.

Easiest thing is to handle it the way TiVo, did, IMHO. KUID's (no matter how they're created, manual or auto) should count against the KAM total. I did a quick check over at the TivoCommunityForum, and no one seemed to complain about things working that way. /s
/steve

#20 OFFLINE   Mark_M

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Posted 16 August 2007 - 09:35 AM

Easiest thing is to handle it the way TiVo, did, IMHO. KUID's (no matter how they're created, manual or auto) should count against the KAM total.


This is also my preference and the way I would vote if we took a poll on it.
Mark
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