Jump to content


Welcome to DBSTalk


Sign In 

Create Account
Welcome to DBSTalk. Our community covers all aspects of video delivery solutions including: Direct Broadcast Satellite (DBS), Cable Television, and Internet Protocol Television (IPTV). We also have forums to discuss popular television programs, home theater equipment, and internet streaming service providers. Members of our community include experts who can help you solve technical problems, industry professionals, company representatives, and novices who are here to learn.

Like most online communities you must register to view or post in our community. Sign-up is a free and simple process that requires minimal information. Be a part of our community by signing in or creating an account. The Digital Bit Stream starts here!
  • Reply to existing topics or start a discussion of your own
  • Subscribe to topics and forums and get email updates
  • Send private personal messages (PM) to other forum members
  • Customize your profile page and make new friends
 
Guest Message by DevFuse

Photo
- - - - -

SeaGate FAP 750GB or Western Digital 1TB + enclosure


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
24 replies to this topic

#1 OFFLINE   jondiehl

jondiehl

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 23 posts
Joined: Sep 21, 2007

Posted 20 October 2007 - 01:07 PM

I need some help deciding on which drive to add to my HR-20. I picked up both today at Best Buy as I was having trouble deciding on which to own.

The Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB I paid $199 (pricematched to Costco).
The Western Digital Caviar GP 1TB I got on sale for $279.99, but I'll have to add an external enclosure and eSATA cable ($21.99 @ NewEgg for the KINGWIN JT-35E-BK ).

It's not just the $100 difference between 750 and 1000 GB of storage (well worth it for the extra 250GB in space IMO), it's the reliability and warranty as well. The Seagate warranty is 5yrs, but I've heard it runs pretty hot. This new Western Digital is only warrantied for 3yrs, but this new technology is supposed to run cooler and with less power (and I've had terrible luck with Western Digital in the past, to the point of swearing them off, but this price of $279 for 1TB was too hard to pass up).

I have both sitting here on my kitchen table, undecided on which to use.

I guess I could keep both and put the 1TB drive in my HR10-250 HD Tivo as the original drive in that is starting to get slow and is probably failing (although I'll probably get another HR-20 in 6 months to swap for it anyway.

Sorry for rambling, I'm just looking for some advice from some other people who have already started using an external SATA drive with their HR20.
DVR's:
D* HR20-700 (upgraded with an internal 2TB drive)
D* HR21-700 (upgraded with an internal 1TB drive)
D* HR24-500
D* HR24-500

...Ads Help To Support This SIte...

#2 OFFLINE   BenE

BenE

    Cool Member

  • Registered
  • 12 posts
Joined: Oct 20, 2007

Posted 21 October 2007 - 12:43 PM

I was hoping to see a vet of this forum give input on this, I'm in a simlar boat. I'm on the verge of buying an external hard drive as well. Actually, I already bought one that I had to return. Long story short, I asked a D* CSR what the USB port in the front panel was for, he said it was for an external hard drive. When I tried to hook up a WD USB 2.0 drive - - no dice. It was only after scouring this forum that I learned that I needed a eSATA drive. So at least I made it that far...

So now I've got my eye on a Seagate 750GB ST307504FPA1E3-RK for $199 at Fry's. Which seems to be a phenomenal price as far as I can tell. And of course I have to find a cable (which they don't seem to sell on line). I've found a couple decently priced cables on newegg, but I'm having a hard time determining which end is up regarding the reviews.

About the heat consideration, I'm pretty much throwing up my hands. I know generally speaking "excessive" heat = bad. XBox 30 teaches me this. But my Onkyo receiver and HR20 don't seem to have any problems running hot (HR20 at 124-127 with no issues thus far...). I'm just going to make sure to give everything plenty of ventillation, maybe even add some small fans to help out with cooling (thinking ahead to when I build my new entertainment center & home "theater").

#3 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

Lord Vader

    Special Member

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 8,173 posts
  • LocationGalactic Empire
Joined: Sep 20, 2004

Posted 21 October 2007 - 01:57 PM

If money really isn't an issue, then go with the Seagate 750. For me, even though price was an issue, I opted for reliability and extra storage, the former of which was most important. Therefore, I got a Hitachi 1TB and an Antec MX-1 enclosure, which has its own internal cooling fan--nice. There have been more and more reports of the Seagates failing within months of their being connected. It hasn't reached an epidemic, but considering the Seagates lack a cooling unit, why take a chance?

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

Opinions are my own but should be those of all Americans, who would be much better off intellectually, psychologically, and emotionally if that were the case.


#4 ONLINE   keenan

keenan

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 08, 2005

Posted 21 October 2007 - 02:07 PM

If money really isn't an issue, then go with the Seagate 750. For me, even though price was an issue, I opted for reliability and extra storage, the former of which was most important. Therefore, I got a Hitachi 1TB and an Antec MX-1 enclosure, which has its own internal cooling fan--nice. There have been more and more reports of the Seagates failing within months of their being connected. It hasn't reached an epidemic, but considering the Seagates lack a cooling unit, why take a chance?


I'm running the same exact setup on TiVo S3 and haven't had any trouble. I just picked up another MX-1 for the HR20 and was waiting to see if anyone was using the Hitachi drive, but you've just confirmed that it does work, and works well, thanks. :)

BTW, Circuit City had the MX-1 for $40 last week, not sure if it's still on sale as of today though.

#5 OFFLINE   Hansen

Hansen

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 1,344 posts
Joined: Jan 01, 2006

Posted 21 October 2007 - 02:34 PM

I need some help deciding on which drive to add to my HR-20. I picked up both today at Best Buy as I was having trouble deciding on which to own.

The Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750GB I paid $199 (pricematched to Costco).
The Western Digital Caviar GP 1TB I got on sale for $279.99, but I'll have to add an external enclosure and eSATA cable ($21.99 @ NewEgg for the KINGWIN JT-35E-BK ).

It's not just the $100 difference between 750 and 1000 GB of storage (well worth it for the extra 250GB in space IMO), it's the reliability and warranty as well. The Seagate warranty is 5yrs, but I've heard it runs pretty hot. This new Western Digital is only warrantied for 3yrs, but this new technology is supposed to run cooler and with less power (and I've had terrible luck with Western Digital in the past, to the point of swearing them off, but this price of $279 for 1TB was too hard to pass up).

I have both sitting here on my kitchen table, undecided on which to use.

I guess I could keep both and put the 1TB drive in my HR10-250 HD Tivo as the original drive in that is starting to get slow and is probably failing (although I'll probably get another HR-20 in 6 months to swap for it anyway.

Sorry for rambling, I'm just looking for some advice from some other people who have already started using an external SATA drive with their HR20.


Both good choices. I have gone through a similar debate. Dollar for dollar, the 1TB is still a bit more per gb than the 750gb, especially after you add an enclosure. I'd like to see active cooling built into the Seagate FAP but it does have a 5 year warranty and the aluminum case acts as a good heat sink. In the end, I went with the Seagate 750GB ST307504FPA1E3-RK through CostCo for $199. I like CostCo because CostCo really stands behind its products by providing an even better warranty than Seagate....return any time for any reason. Beats having to wait for Seagate to honor the warranty. I'm currently monitoring temps inside my AV area to see the net heat impact by the FAP and may add a fan to move the heat out of the AV area. (I'd probably have to do that regardless of a fan built in to the HD enclosure since that just re-circulates the air inside the AV area and does not remove it from the area.)

I think the best choice will come with time when hard drives in the 1Tb+ range get a lot cheaper and they start offering more AV rated drives (drives intended to be used with DVRs - running 24/7) for the current price of regular hard drives. For now the FAP was a good choice for me but I think most of the solutions used out there by posters are good choices. It just comes down to $/gb.
HR20-700 (networked) with 750gb eSATA drive via HDMI to Panasonic 42" HD plasma
HR20-700 (networked) via HDMI to Pioneer 50" HD plasma with customized URC Complete Control MX-3000 touch screen remote using RF
HR20-700 (networked) via HDMI to Samsung 19" HD LCD
H20-100 via HDMI to Toshiba 19" HD LCD
H20-100 (now retired and collecting dust) via HDMI<DVI to Sony 42" HD plasma
H21-100 via HDMI to Sony 40" HD LCD (in outdoor pavillion)

SWMLine dish

DirecTV since 1997


#6 OFFLINE   Sirshagg

Sirshagg

    Hall Of Fame

  • Registered
  • 4,922 posts
Joined: Dec 29, 2006

Posted 21 October 2007 - 02:36 PM

I got a Hitachi 1TB and an Antec MX-1 enclosure, which has its own internal cooling fan--nice.


I went with the WD 1tb drive (was $279 at bb last week) and the MX-1 enclosure.
Who is this "Vod Kanockers" that you speak of?

#7 OFFLINE   Lord Vader

Lord Vader

    Special Member

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 8,173 posts
  • LocationGalactic Empire
Joined: Sep 20, 2004

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:08 PM

As nice as the warranties are, what good does that do when your drive actually fails and you lose all recordings, settings, favorites, etc.? That's a frustration that is immeasurable, and if it's gonna happen, I'd rather have it happen much less frequently, which would probably be the case with a drive in an enclosed, cooled unit.

FAITH: I find the lack of it disturbing.

Opinions are my own but should be those of all Americans, who would be much better off intellectually, psychologically, and emotionally if that were the case.


#8 OFFLINE   jondiehl

jondiehl

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 23 posts
Joined: Sep 21, 2007

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:15 PM

Dollar for dollar, the 1TB is still a bit more per gb than the 750gb, especially after you add an enclosure.


Actually, the 1TB option is LESS per GB than the Seagate 750.

Seagate FAP 750GB = $199.99 = $3.75/GB
WD Caviar GP 1TB ($279.99) + KINGWIN JT-35E enclosure w/ fan and eSATA cable ($21.99) = $3.31/GB

Thanks for the responses guys. I didn't know that the Seagate FAP did not have active cooling, which I think is essential for these hard drives in long-term AV applications. Even though Seagate FAP 750GB is a great deal @ $199.99, the Western Digital drive is less per GB even after adding an actively cooled enclosure like the Kingwin from Newegg.com
DVR's:
D* HR20-700 (upgraded with an internal 2TB drive)
D* HR21-700 (upgraded with an internal 1TB drive)
D* HR24-500
D* HR24-500

#9 OFFLINE   tombet

tombet

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 140 posts
Joined: Sep 26, 2006

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:44 PM

Actually, the 1TB option is LESS per GB than the Seagate 750.

Seagate FAP 750GB = $199.99 = $3.75/GB
WD Caviar GP 1TB ($279.99) + KINGWIN JT-35E enclosure w/ fan and eSATA cable ($21.99) = $3.31/GB

Thanks for the responses guys. I didn't know that the Seagate FAP did not have active cooling, which I think is essential for these hard drives in long-term AV applications. Even though Seagate FAP 750GB is a great deal @ $199.99, the Western Digital drive is less per GB even after adding an actively cooled enclosure like the Kingwin from Newegg.com


And actually, if you are figuring the cost per GB, you should first subtract the 100GB that the HR20's reserve for its buffer and settings, and then do the division with the remaining balance. That will further make the 1TB look like a good choice.

#10 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

Tom Robertson

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,250 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:49 PM

Me? Space, Space, Space. :)

If I were to do an external drive (I own 3 DVRs outright, so I can and have opened), I would go with a Raid 5 enclosure to protect the recordings. I just haven't decided which external case to go with yet.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#11 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

Tom Robertson

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,250 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 21 October 2007 - 03:57 PM

Actually, the 1TB option is LESS per GB than the Seagate 750.

Seagate FAP 750GB = $199.99 = $3.75/GB
WD Caviar GP 1TB ($279.99) + KINGWIN JT-35E enclosure w/ fan and eSATA cable ($21.99) = $3.31/GB

Thanks for the responses guys. I didn't know that the Seagate FAP did not have active cooling, which I think is essential for these hard drives in long-term AV applications. Even though Seagate FAP 750GB is a great deal @ $199.99, the Western Digital drive is less per GB even after adding an actively cooled enclosure like the Kingwin from Newegg.com


And actually, if you are figuring the cost per GB, you should first subtract the 100MB that the HR20's reserve for its buffer and settings, and then do the division with the remaining balance. That will further make the 1TB look like a good choice.


Ummm... $200/750 = $.26666667/GB
$300/1000 = $.30000/GB

Using tombet's excellent suggestion
$200/650 = $.308/GB (usable)
$300/900 = $.33/GB (usable)

Sure, I got loose with the total cost, the case and cable and tax will be more, but the comparison should still hold.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#12 OFFLINE   jondiehl

jondiehl

    Cool Member

  • Topic Starter
  • Registered
  • 23 posts
Joined: Sep 21, 2007

Posted 21 October 2007 - 09:09 PM

Ummm... $200/750 = $.26666667/GB
$300/1000 = $.30000/GB

Using tombet's excellent suggestion
$200/650 = $.308/GB (usable)
$300/900 = $.33/GB (usable)

Sure, I got loose with the total cost, the case and cable and tax will be more, but the comparison should still hold.

Cheers,
Tom


Thank you. Wasn't paying close attention to the numbers while typing that and watching football this afternoon.

Divided wrong or right, looks like 1TB is the way to go for cost per GB (even more so when deducting the 100GB to get to usable storage). :)
DVR's:
D* HR20-700 (upgraded with an internal 2TB drive)
D* HR21-700 (upgraded with an internal 1TB drive)
D* HR24-500
D* HR24-500

#13 OFFLINE   kikkenit2

kikkenit2

    Icon

  • Registered
  • 662 posts
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:04 AM

I bought 2 of the Seagate 750Gb at BB last week on sale. Then I read on here that the Cavalry 750 at buy.com was a better choice so I got 1 of those too. It has the fan and runs way cooler. It came with the cable also. One of the seagates already started giving me trouble today. HR20 kept locking up and had to reset twice. The second time was a rbr and it went directly to the internal drive. Sweating this seagate enclosure. Recommend getting enclosures with a fan built in. Will go 1Tb when prices drop some.

#14 OFFLINE   Halo

Halo

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 266 posts
Joined: Jan 13, 2006

Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:53 AM

The heat and power specs for the 1TB Western Digital are very impressive.

Here are a few quick stats from the review.

Surface Drive Temp

Western Digital 1000GB: 41C
Seagate 750 GB______: 51C
Hitachi 1000GB_______: 53C

Power Consumption

Western Digital 1000GB: 4.0 watts idle, 12.2 watts load
Hitachi 1000GB_______: 8.4 watts idle, 18.4 watts load

This was taken from THIS REVIEW

I think right now I would definitely choose the WD drive, especially in a multi drive RAID setup where power and heat numbers are multiplied.

#15 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

Tom Robertson

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,250 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:07 AM

The heat and power specs for the 1TB Western Digital are very impressive.

Here are a few quick stats from the review.

Surface Drive Temp

Western Digital 1000GB: 41C
Seagate 750 GB______: 51C
Hitachi 1000GB_______: 53C

Power Consumption

Western Digital 1000GB: 4.0 watts idle, 12.2 watts load
Hitachi 1000GB_______: 8.4 watts idle, 18.4 watts load

This was taken from THIS REVIEW

I think right now I would definitely choose the WD drive, especially in a multi drive RAID setup where power and heat numbers are multiplied.


Quoting from the article:

Consequently, we should not expect exciting performance results from the new hard drive, which also means that it won't be a recommendation for enthusiasts with little patience.

In other words, likely not good for a DVR, always under load.

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)


#16 OFFLINE   jbart1965

jbart1965

    AllStar

  • Registered
  • 52 posts
Joined: Oct 12, 2006

Posted 22 October 2007 - 08:49 AM

The review actually says it would be good for a DVR, though I don't understand exactly why.

BTW, Hitachi supposedly has a 1TB drive specifically for DVRs, called Cinemastar, but it's hard to find.

#17 ONLINE   keenan

keenan

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 517 posts
Joined: Feb 08, 2005

Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:25 AM

The review actually says it would be good for a DVR, though I don't understand exactly why.

BTW, Hitachi supposedly has a 1TB drive specifically for DVRs, called Cinemastar, but it's hard to find.


I've read, I believe at TCF, that a poster verified with Hitachi that a Cinemastar is just a Deskstar with the acoustic management set for quiet running.

#18 OFFLINE   tombet

tombet

    Legend

  • Registered
  • 140 posts
Joined: Sep 26, 2006

Posted 22 October 2007 - 10:41 AM

The review actually says it would be good for a DVR, though I don't understand exactly why.

BTW, Hitachi supposedly has a 1TB drive specifically for DVRs, called Cinemastar, but it's hard to find.


IMO, some conclusions are being drawn that might not be warranted. I read the review, but I dont think its clear whether the WD or Hitachi 1TB is better for HR20 use. The reviews show the Hitachi is faster and the WD is cooler. Neither of those necessarily mean one is better for use with the HR20. Both seem suitable, and I think we need to wait a year or so to really know as it will come down to reliability. In the mean time, I wouldn't really hesitate to use either.

Because the Hitachi runs warmer does not mean it runs TOO warm or that you can expect a shorter life span. You might think so intuitively, but the biggest study of hard drive reliability (published earlier this year, using drives in the google data center, easily found with an internet search) did not correlate drive failures to drive temps (until very extreme temps.)

But in support of the WD, the loads that the TomsHardware review puts on during tests greatly surpass what the HR20 is doing - even when its recording two shows and watching a third. Compared to the stress tests of the reviews, the HR20 is not all that taxing. Figure each video stream in the HR20 is something around 5-7 MB/Sec. SO fully loaded with two recording streams and one playback stream, lets call it 20MB/sec. TomsHardware is testing with average transfer rates of around 60MB/sec, with highs of over 80MB/sec for the fastest drives (like the Hitachi) and always at least 30MB/sec for even the slowest drives. The WD averaged around 60MB/sec, and never did worse than 38MB/sec. (My numbers are approximations.) That is likely why TomsHardware says it would be good for a DVR - because while they think the WD drive is no speed demon, they dont think you need a speed demon for a DVR. In their tests, the WD can easily handle the biggest load a DVR would put on it. Also, TomsHardware recommendation for WD suitability for a DVR (generically speaking) might be assuming a DVR that will idle the drive when its not being used bringing the power savings features into play - but the HR20 will not idle the drive.

(Looking at the power saving features and temps at IDLE is rather meaningless if deciding for use in the HR20, because the drive is never going to be idle. Its a strong point of the WD for sure, but it wont be used with the HR20.)

I own a Hitachi 1Tb and am pleased, but from all I have read about the WD, I think its a good choice as well. Over time we'll see if one has better reliability than the other - but at this point I think you cannot come to any conclusion about that.

As to the CinemaStar, I cannot find any substantive features or technology that would indicate its a model that would do really better than the regular DeskStar. My hunch: it is mostly marketing position to clearly indicate they feel the drive is a good choice for a DVR. I think its more style than substance. One can use Hitachi utilities to tune its power saving and acoustic properties - it wouldn't even surprise me if all the CinemaStar has done is pretuned it to some choices they feel are good for a DVR. (I am purely speculating on that part, but... )

#19 OFFLINE   Halo

Halo

    Godfather

  • Registered
  • 266 posts
Joined: Jan 13, 2006

Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:12 PM

But in support of the WD, the loads that the TomsHardware review puts on during tests greatly surpass what the HR20 is doing - even when its recording two shows and watching a third. Compared to the stress tests of the reviews, the HR20 is not all that taxing. Figure each video stream in the HR20 is something around 5-7 MB/Sec. SO fully loaded with two recording streams and one playback stream, lets call it 20MB/sec.

Agreed, but I think the bitrates are even smaller than that.
The 'worst case' condition for the HR20 is to record two full ATSC streams at once while at the same time viewing a recorded full ATSC stream.
The ATSC stream (no subchannels) is 19.37 Mbits per second.
So three full ATSC streams should be about 7.3 MB/s, which is well within the capabilities of modern 3.5 drives. A more realistic load (MPEG2HD, MPEG4HD or SD) is smaller than ATSC.
It would be interesting to see what the actual power numbers for the different drives would be at more realistic HR20 loads.

#20 OFFLINE   Tom Robertson

Tom Robertson

    Lifetime Achiever

  • DBSTalk Club
  • 20,250 posts
Joined: Nov 15, 2005

Posted 22 October 2007 - 12:17 PM

Today, I can create greater loads than 3 ATSC streams. Overlap pad 2 shows on both ATSC tuners, plus watch an existing ATSC show.

Soon, with DoD, add another HD stream queued via internet.

After that... well I can't say anything more... ;)

Cheers,
Tom

Go Packers!

My real treasures: 5 Grandchildren - S, D, M, M, C ; Now 5! Great-Grandtibbers - B, H, J, A, and M (Born 7/31/2011)





spam firewall