0x1214 - Native Video Display Option Removed

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by lyradd, Jul 11, 2019.

  1. Bradman

    Bradman Mentor

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    Many TVs cannot display full pixel mapping on 720p sources, resulting in a slightly zoomed image. 1080i ESPN looks great on my set, YMMV.
     
  2. TheRatPatrol

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    Just curious, which brand/model TV do you have?
     
  3. JerryMeeker

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    Not sure how this is relevant. All DTV output is now in 1080i, so what a display does with 720p is moot.
     
  4. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    All DTV output is in the format chosen by the user. The user can set their receiver to output 720p.

    (The option removed was "native" ... which changed the receiver output based on what channel the customer was watching.)
     
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  5. Sep 1, 2019 #225 of 255
    MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Just another AT&T brain fart. With Native On the receiver output was "automatically" changed based on what channel the customer was watching. With Native removed we now have to "manually" set the receiver output.
     
  6. Sep 1, 2019 #226 of 255
    JerryMeeker

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    True, but I can’t imagine setting the DVR to only output 720p when the majority of content is 1080i. Down-scaling 1080i to 720p does not sound desirable to me. And the hassle of changing the output to force 720p for 720p broadcasts does not sound very desirable to me either. I don’t find the PQ of 720p up-scaled to 1080i to be particularly bad, IMO. Native option is gone, and since it was removed, I don’t find outputting everything in 1080i so bad that I can’t live with it.
     
  7. Sep 1, 2019 #227 of 255
    JerryMeeker

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    Only if you find the PQ so bad you can’t live with it.
     
  8. Sep 1, 2019 #228 of 255
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    The point is that the receivers are not "1080i only" output. Customers can still select 720p output and discussion of how a 720p output is displayed is valid.

    My choice is to set the receiver to 1080i, sacrificing Fox, ABC and other 720p channels for every other channel that I watch. By number of hours I watch more 1080i content each week than 720p. And I am not seeing huge issues with watching 720p when output as 1080i by the receiver. Obviously that is an opinion and your opinion may vary as to whether the actual PQ seen is acceptable.

    By the numbers I'd prefer the channel be passed through as Fox and ABC intended ... in 720p. While some displays may have trouble with 720p (zooming too far or cutting off content) owners of those displays could choose to turn native off if the resulting signal was better. (My first HDTV was native 1080i ... it could display a 720p input but it was designed for the 1920x1080 matrix of 1080i.)

    The numbers show what happens when 720p is converted to 1080i ... the screen is stretched (each block of four pixels is converted into a block of nine pixels with the processor calculating the color of the additional pixels and probably recalculating the original pixels to "correct" the image) and half of the frames are lost (60 frames of 921,600 pixels are converted to 30 frames of 2,073,600 pixels). Thanks to compression (EVERY SIGNAL IS COMPRESSED) the intermediate frames need to be used to adjust the next displayed frame. On content that requires 60 frames per second the viewer may lose the step where "pixel x is changed to color y" when the next of 60 frames is "pixel x is changed to color z". The lost information is less than a blink of an eye but (theoretically) could affect millions of pixels 30 times per second ... when added to the "stretch" one could say every frame is corrupted.

    If your display does not handle 720p well the receiver may do a better job of stretching the image and dropping frames. But what is lost at the receiver cannot be restored by any further processing. A better 1080i display would still need to stretch a 720p image to fit the 1080 window, but it may be able to handle the 60 fps frame rate without discarding frames.

    Where the difference is more likely to be seen is a 4K display. Converting 1080i to 4K is easy (double the pixels ... one pixel becomes four). Additional processing can be done to smooth the transitions between pixels. Converting 720p to 4K is also easy ... one pixel becomes nine (with additional smoothing still possible). A 4K set should be able to handle the 720p60 frame rate. By the numbers that is where I see having 720p output as 720p by the receiver (instead of 1080i) would make the most difference. But only by the numbers - I have a 4K display and as noted above, I am not seeing huge issues in the actual displayed image. Your opinion may vary.

    A question: Are NFL Sunday Ticket feeds in the native mode for the network carrying the game that weekend? Are Fox games 720p while CBS feeds are 1080i? If so, how well did your receivers (when Native On was available) handle going back and forth between Fox and CBS feeds? Without Sunday Ticket an effect should have been seen going back and forth between local Fox and CBS stations.
     
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  9. Sep 2, 2019 #229 of 255
    Tubaman-Z

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    I first became aware of this change via the thread NFL ST 2019 ??? and its discussion re: frame rate changes. After reading all 12 pages of this thread :) I have the following thoughts/observations/question.
    1. Regardless of what my signature says (I need to update it) I have a Genie 2, a 4K Genie Mini, and 2 Genie Minis (one of which will soon be replaced with a 4K Genie Mini)
    2. Since becoming a DTV subscriber around 1995 I chose to use Native On to reduce the number of conversions of the signal, figuring that in general, fewer conversions are better and that my TV best knows what it should do with a signal.
    3. I watch a lot of sports and prefer to view in 720p vs 1080i primarily due to motion blur.
    4. My A/V chain includes an Onkyo TX-NR585 AVR and a Sony XBR-85X850F TV. The AVR passes through video signals unaltered, allowing the TV to do any needed conversions.
    5. The DTV "hidden menu" that you access via holding down Select 8-10 seconds lets you view your Native setting, but not change it. With this firmware change it is seemingly permanently set to "Off".
    6. At least one of the DTV help screens still points to modifying your Native setting. Menu->Display Options->TV Resolution->More Info. So AT&T still has cleanup to do.
    7. I believe that the AT&T Community Forum post referenced earlier (Native On/Off Video Display Option Removed From Latest 0x1214 HR44/54 Update, Is This Permanent?) holds a clue to why this was removed. From the AT&T support rep: "When Native Mode is OFF, the resolution stays at a fixed value and prevents the TV from having to breakdown and rebuild its scaling pipeline, providing a more seamless transition between channel changes. This will minimize black or blue or grey screens, artifacts such as screen flickering or audio distortions, and longer delay with channel change." As has been stated by others in this thread, I believe it is primarily a support cost reduction given that the vast majority of DTV customers are more sensitive to the noted issues than picture quality.
    8. I wholeheartedly agree that the simplest change would have been to push out an update forcing Native to off but leaving the Native option present for those of us who care about it.
    I have one question:
    1. If I go through the Info menu options to set the resolution to 720p for a 720p channel (say Fox), will the channel have been converted to 1080i and then back to to 720p? While it seems silly to do so it could be done intentionally or accidentally. I will do a visual experiment to see but am wondering technically.
    @James Long - To answer your question: "Are NFL Sunday Ticket feeds in the native mode for the network carrying the game that weekend? Are Fox games 720p while CBS feeds are 1080i? If so, how well did your receivers (when Native On was available) handle going back and forth between Fox and CBS feeds?" the answer is "Yes, they are in native mode." I was cognizant (visually, time-lag) of the resynchronization that happened when changing but didn't experience it often as I typically don't switch between on-going games. Net: It didn't bother me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2019
  10. Sep 2, 2019 #230 of 255
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    As far as I know, setting the receiver output to the same format as the listed format for the channel will pass through that channel without an intermediate conversion.
    When the receiver output is set to 720p, a 720p channel such as ABC or Fox will be output as 720p without converting it to 1080i then back to 720p within the receiver.
    (With that setting 1080i channels such as CBS and NBC would be converted and output as 720p.)
     
  11. Sep 2, 2019 #231 of 255
    Tubaman-Z

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    Thanks. I hadn't actually considered that it would leave the resolution at 720p - which is obvious in hindsight. Need to ponder.....
     
  12. Sep 3, 2019 #232 of 255
    Bradman

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  13. YOLOdactyl

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    Add me to the list of people that didn't notice this was happening until Sunday Ticket.

    Mine was stuck at 1080i and something just didn't look right about some of the 720p games. Sigh maybe I gotta try out them Hoppers again.
     
  14. compnurd

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    Don’t believe the Hoppers have Native
     
  15. TheRatPatrol

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    Or NFLST.
     
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  16. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator

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    Details ...
     
  17. dishrich

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    NO DISH receiver has ever had native...
     
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  18. I WANT MORE

    I WANT MORE CowboySooner

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    Tivo does and there is a CLEAR difference in PQ.
    D* needs to reverse it's disastrous decision of eliminating the native option.
     
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  19. JerryMeeker

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    Does’t TiVo make a DirecTV compatible model? What is the model number? I need to research making a change.

    Edit: Sorry, I see there is a thread here discussing the DTV Tivo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2019
  20. compnurd

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    You cant get it anymore and it is a Tivo Software from 3-4 revisions ago
     

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