4 or More Hoppers on a Single Account?

Discussion in 'Hopper System Support Forum' started by Zulu, May 6, 2015.

  1. May 6, 2015 #1 of 91
    Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    Interested in how they were networked together.
     
  2. May 6, 2015 #2 of 91
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I don't think they are.

    With a supported Dish configuration, 2 Hoppers would be networked together, and the other 2 would be networked together and no connection between them. There might possibly be some unsupported configurations that might technically work, but if you had a problem with them I wouldn't expect Dish to help you sort things out. I have read about some people who have more than 2 Hoppers configured so they can see each other... but I've yet to see Dish officially support such a configuration.
     
  3. May 7, 2015 #3 of 91
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    If I recall correctly, in the initial "three hopper" setup the additional hopper was on a separate account. Four hoppers would be like wiring two separate two hopper systems and letting them talk to each other. Not "impossible" ... but not the intended design.
     
  4. May 7, 2015 #4 of 91
    Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    I typically never go to DISH to "sort things out". I try to get the answers ahead of time before I ever call DISH. This is from years of experience with an RV account and finding DISH hopelessly uninformed on things RV.

    Here's a diagram for 4-Hopper single network that a Satelliteguys member has actually set up. Note: he leased 2 Hoppers from DISH and had to purchase the other 2 Hoppers. Plus, he used a DISH 1000+: 4 Hoppers - Single Network

    Here's my best guess at the "ultimate" Hopper single network using a single dish: 8 Hoppers - Single Network.

    Lest you think that I plan on installing 8 Hoppers in an RV (or a house for that matter), not so. I was looking for what was technically possible.

    DISH "official support"?

    Reminds me of the 1st Hopper network diagrams that included info on how to connect a VIP receiver to a Hopper network. Oops!

    More on point . . . according to a DISH rep I talked with, she said DISH would allow you to have 7 Hoppers (2 leased + 5 purchased). She said that right after she told me that DISH typically has a "16 receiver" limit per account. That said, I'm thinking it wouldn't take much to talk them into that 8th Hopper.

    Anyway, I'm looking for actual multi-Hopper installs.

    My blog: DISH TV for RVs.
     
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  5. May 7, 2015 #5 of 91
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I get what you're saying... in terms of support... I too try and fix things myself OR seek help here from people who know and play with their setups on a regular basis.

    That said... Before the Wireless Joey, lots of folk discovered they could run a regular Joey via Wifi if they used on of those Wifi USB dongles on their Joey OR could use Ethernet as well... and it mostly worked... but sometimes it didn't... and eventually they would call Dish and be mad Dish wouldn't fix their problem in an unsupported configuration.

    I just like to head off expectations in these scenarios. I gathered some of the 3+ Hopper configurations were technically possible, but what happens if you start having connection issues? Maybe your video starts to break up across the MoCA network? You do all the troubleshooting you can, then call Dish because you think you need your receiver replaced but then find Dish doesn't support your configuration and are hesitant to replace your receiver unless you disconnect everything and connect in a supported manner?

    That's all I'm saying... it's like running an alternative fuel in your car, it might work... but if you have problems, the manufacturer might wash their hands of you when you call them.
     
  6. May 7, 2015 #6 of 91
    Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    Well, since DISH would have known what I was doing and would be charging me for those 3+ Hoppers, I'd expect them to fix it.

    BTW, I have 2 Hoppers, and each time one was installed, a DISH tech came out and checked my wiring and commissioned the Hopper. I figure they'd do the same if I added another 6 Hoppers. To me, that's DISH's stamp of approval -- and promise of future support.

    Regardless, I think you're confusing "supported configuration" with "typical configuration".

    3+ Hoppers sure ain't typical, but that doesn't mean it's not (or shouldn't be) supported.
     
  7. May 7, 2015 #7 of 91
    harsh

    harsh Beware the Attack Basset

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    I don't think anyone has that many Hoppers. The maximum I've seen is three.

    MoCA provides for up to 16 devices so device count shouldn't be a problem. MoCA bandwidth is another issue entirely.

    I suspect it would be much easier to set it up than it would be to come up with a plausible justification for doing it.
     
  8. May 7, 2015 #8 of 91
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Nope... Dish will let you have more than 2 Hoppers on your account if you purchase them... but they do not support all of those Hoppers being interconnected on a shared MoCA network.

    Dish would support each set of 2 Hoppers connected to a dual node where each pair of Hoppers is isolated from the other. IF you use another wiring setup to interconnect more than 2 Hoppers, you can bet that Dish will not support that configuration and problems that might arise from it. There are reasons why Dish is not setting this scenario up themselves, largely because they don't want to support it.

    Summary... you can have more than 2 Hoppers, and if you connect them in a supported manner then Dish will help you if you have problems... but if you choose to install/use them in a non-supported configuration, don't expect Dish to fix any problems that might arise from that non-supported configuration.
     
  9. May 7, 2015 #9 of 91
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Multiple hoppers would require multiple nodes and enough DPP feeds from switches to feed them all. Watching content from one hopper on another hopper would take up MoCA or network bandwidth ... but having all eight hopper users watching content from another hopper at the same time would be as unlikely as having eight hoppers in the first place, in my opinion.

    Where people are more likely to run out of resources is with multiple Joeys and not enough Hopper tuners to serve them all.

    i am certainly a proponent of a two hopper setup ... a Super Joey would be a good option if one was unsure if they really needed a second Hopper because it adds capacity to the system. In my opinion multiple Joeys is a bigger problem than multiple Hoppers. The fix for needing more Hoppers is building a network of switches to feed multiple nodes. The fix for needing more capacity to serve Joeys is to add more Hoppers - which when one passes two Hoppers or a Hopper and a Super Joey gets back to cascading switches.

    It would be interesting to see a verifiable report of a multiple system ... a screen shot showing the multiple devices on one system. Especially if there were seven or eight devices claimed.
     
  10. Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    Here's an equipment photo & network diagram of a Satelliteguys user's 4 Hopper (sorry, not 8) system:

    [​IMG]
     
  11. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Looks good ... the "by the book" limit for DPP44 switches would be three (without getting in to professional MDU installations with amplifiers). Which would be a physical limit of six Hoppers.

    By screen shot I was referring to the Hopper display ... the place in "My Recordings" where one can select the "source of recordings" (how many Hoppers can show in that list?) or the Settings - Network - Whole Home display showing linked and unlinked devices.

    Getting multiple Hoppers to "play nice" is more than getting the signals to the Hoppers.
     
  12. Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    Remember that the 3 DPP44 Power Inserters can be used to feed another Duo Node -- so that's 8 Hoppers.

    The guy who made this 4 Hopper setup is Charles Shell. He may be a member here, but he's on Satelliteguys forum as user charlesrshell. You're free to ask him, but he's been talking about his system for at least a year, so I think it works fine and is configured as a Single Network.
     
  13. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I am not the one making the claim of seven or eight Hoppers ...

    I agree with your statement in an earlier post: "I'm looking for actual multi-Hopper installs."
     
  14. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    And it's important to stress here... I'm not saying what will or will not technically work, but what Dish will support. Dish, as far as I've heard, will not set up a configuration like the one in your photos here that interconnect the two dual nodes.

    Dish, for instance, does not support users having any other receiver type on the account with Hoppers except in some cases a 211 will be allowed. Technically, however, you can run other Dish receivers off those DPP44 switches and they would work fine... but Dish will not activate them so it's a moot point whether or not it technically works.

    In the case of a 3 or 4 Hopper (or more) system... Dish will make you buy the other 2 Hoppers and nodes and switches and stuff, but they will activate them. They will even install them, if you pay for the work, but they would not interconnect those dual nodes for you. Now, you could do it yourself after they leave... and it might work fine and you never have a problem. If I wanted that many Hoppers, I'd probably give that configuration a whirl myself! So I'm not knocking it... it's just worth keeping the mental note that IF you ever have a signal problem, Dish is likely going to blame it on the non-supported interconnect and that will stonewall your getting some problems fixed unless you deconstruct that before you call Dish and put it back to a supported config before asking Dish for help.

    Think overclocking processors on computers... the CPUs were made generally to tolerate higher than supported speeds... but the failure rate was higher than they wanted to support... so many people (myself included) would overclock our CPUs to boost performance on our PCs... but IF we burnt up a chip doing so, we were on our own and would be replacing the CPU (and sometimes motherboard) out of our own dimes!

    Now... the Hopper stuff isn't, as far as I've heard, likely to cause hardware damage... but you can bet Dish would was their hands, and rightfully so, of anything that came from a non-supported config.
     
  15. n0qcu

    n0qcu Legend/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    here's the screen shot you requested for four hoppers.
    DVR-list2.jpg
     
  16. Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    I don't think it's as clear cut with DISH in terms of support.

    For example, on SOF (Some Other Forum), a person with a 3 Hopper and a 4 Hopper setup were having problems with remote control "lag" -- periodically, their remotes wouldn't respond for a time (5 - 15 seconds). I know that the 4 Hopper setup was configured as a single network (connected Duo Nodes). Don't know about the 3 Hopper network.

    Anyway, the 1st person noticed this lag when PTAT was on, the 4-Hopper person noticed the lag right after a software update.

    So what caused it? PTAT activity? Software? MoCA overload? From what I've read about MoCA -- it's a very robust protocol. But who knows.

    However, it's noteworthy that a DIRT member offered to help -- so I don't think DISH would necessarily turn its back on "unsupported" configs.

    BTW, here's a screen shot from the 4 Hopper system:

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    I have some questions for you . . .
    • What model Hopper(s) are you using? Originals? Hoppers with Sling?
    • Are 2 of your Hoppers leased & the other 2 purchased?
    • Who wired your system?
    • Are they connected like what's shown in this diagram: 4 Hoppers - Single Network?
    • Any issues? Remote Control lag? Pixelation? Other?
    Tx!
     
  18. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I do not believe that Stewart was suggesting that DISH would drop all support for a multiple Hopper system. Only that any problems that were related to having more than the usual number of Hoppers would not be addressed. The concept of "if it works, it works" without spending a lot of time developing ways of connecting more than a "normal" number of Hoppers.

    When there is a feature in the receiver software there is usually a reason for it. The initial release did not have the ability for one Hopper to see another Hopper's programs. Selling two Hopper systems gave DISH a reason to allow Hoppers and Joeys to easily select content on either Hopper (in a two Hopper system). And it works on more than two Hoppers.

    With any undocumented feature "it works" does not mean it will keep working. Unless there is a reason for DISH to keep the feature.
     
  19. Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I gather from reading the forums that remote lag is a known issue, especially with the original Hopper... the newer Hopper w/Sling has a faster processor and I don't know if it still has the remote lag problems. Any number of things can cause remote lag, including of course a bad remote or low batteries... but I gather there have been remote issues that sometimes a reboot fixes.

    And James is correct, I'm not saying Dish will wash their hands of you entirely... I'm just saying any problem that reveals the unsupported interconnect will likely be one they start washing their hands of fixing.

    Remote problems? They'll help with that... but if you're having issues viewing content from one Hopper to another... that's the kind of thing that's going to expose that you've somehow got an unsupported configuration that has 4 Hoppers seeing each other at the same time... at which point I expect Dish Support to say "That's not supported, no wonder you have problems." And then their suggested fix will be for you to disconnect that interconnect and have each pair of Hoppers (node) isolated from the other.

    There is any number of reasons why Dish has decided not to support these configurations even if they appear to technically work. It's like I said about using original Joeys over Wifi or Ethernet... That works too, but Dish isn't going to help you make it work and if you have problems, Dish isn't going to help you fix those unless you connect those Joeys via the supported method. Same thing for the 3+ Hoppers. Dish doesn't support or intend for more than 2 Hoppers (or 1 Hopper + 1 Super Joey) to be able to see each other over MoCA... so you aren't going to get them to help you troubleshoot any problems that stem from that.
     
  20. Zulu

    Zulu New Member

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    How do you know this?
     

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