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5th grader suspended at nature camp for Swiss Army knife

Discussion in 'The OT' started by phrelin, Apr 27, 2013.

  1. Apr 27, 2013 #21 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    I've broken many rules in my life, and when caught, I accepted whatever punishment given. Some were stupid, IMO, but I owned my punishment. Two examples...

    1.) I skipped class for 45 minutes in 8th grade and got caught. I had never skipped before, but still received 2 days In-School-Suspension & 2 weeks detention.
    2.) I had a party in college and the cops came. I received a $275 ticket for noise violation. This one was really stupid, IMO, because it was a Friday night at a college student only apartment complex.
     
  2. Apr 27, 2013 #22 of 110
    damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    10 year old don't need to carry knives of any kind when other children are present, period!

    Why argue!
     
  3. Apr 27, 2013 #23 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Please watch the personal attacks and stay on topic. Thanks!
     
  4. Apr 27, 2013 #24 of 110
    MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    I disagree. I've been carrying a pocket knife since I was eight years old. So have my sons and most likely will their sons. Part of being a parent is teaching our children responsibility. What they should and shouldn't do with things given to them.
     
  5. Apr 27, 2013 #25 of 110
    dpeters11

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    I've never been a fan of zero tolerance with no ability for context. Same thing with a zero tolerance drug policy where a student can't carry their epipen with them, but has to spend time waiting for it to come from the nurse. Or a student that gets suspended for letting a fellow student use their inhaler when they had forgotten their own and having an asthma attack.

    I had a teacher that liked more unusual punishments. Forgot a book in my locker one day in 6th grade, was sent to 7th grade geography for two days and had to take their test. That teacher ended up kicking me out after grading that one...
     
  6. Apr 27, 2013 #26 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    The kid might be as responsible as you and your, but his peers might not be as responsible and do irresponsible things with it. There's a lot of bad kids out there doing bad things. These rules are designed to eliminate the possibilities. We all know responsible gun owners, like yourself and many others, aren't the ones killing people... it's the criminals and bad people who typically get/steal guns from the responsible people.. There's bad kids who could get the knife and do damage.

    You mentioned the blade is only 3 inches. That's not long to us adults, but the smaller bodies of 5th graders make serious injury more easy.
     
  7. Apr 27, 2013 #27 of 110
    Stewart Vernon

    Stewart Vernon Roving Reporter Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I usually don't like "zero tolerance" as a blanket policy... but there are times when it makes sense. Sometimes you don't want people making judgment calls, especially if maybe they aren't qualified to make such calls. Other times, I agree that you want someone making case-by-case exceptions.

    In the case of a knife with 5th graders. Even if your kid is responsible... maybe there's another kid in his class that isn't responsible... and having the knife there at all gives that kid a chance to be around a knife. Maybe your kid is being responsible with it... and the other kid is goofing off and an accident happens. It might be better all around if there is no knife there at all.

    The flip side of "my kid knows how to use one properly" is... what is going to happen that he needs his knife? Does anyone in that particular outing need a knife? If not, it might be better to just leave it at home.

    The case-by-case nature, though, could be applied to the "punishment"... in other words, if the adult says "hey, you aren't supposed to have a knife" and the kid willingly gives it up... then I don't know why he has to be suspended over it either. Give it back to the kid at the end of the outing or to his parent or whatever and ask them not to let him bring it again. IF he brings it again, then you might consider a suspension I suppose.
     
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  8. Apr 27, 2013 #28 of 110
    Herdfan

    Herdfan Well-Known Member

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  9. Apr 28, 2013 #29 of 110
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I do not mind there being a no knife rule ... it is the punishment that I consider harsh.

    Going back and expanding one of the examples I gave:
    A responsible adult takes the same knife to an airport and carries it on their person to the security checkpoint. Perhaps they leave it in their pocket hoping it doesn't trigger the detectors. Or they tuck it in their carry on. Anyone who flies knows no knives are allowed (at this time). It is not an obscure rule. The same person could take another banned object such as too many ounces of shampoo ... the rule says you cannot carry that on to a plane.

    What is the consequence of breaking that rule - of a responsible adult trying to take a knife or other banned material on to a plane? Unless they violate a second rule (such as arguing with TSA, swearing, etc) all they have to do is surrender the banned item. They are not barred from flying that day or any other for attempting to pass security with a banned object.

    So now we move to the 5th grade ... not mature adults but children who should be expected to make mistakes. In this case the child is getting a worse punishment than a responsible adult who should know better. The rule needs to be rewritten so that contraband is confiscated and given to the parent (or disposed of, if some harshness is needed). Suspensions and expulsions are too much. Save that for the third time offender.
     
  10. Apr 28, 2013 #30 of 110
    damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    Let me ask you a question what would a 10 year old need with a knife? Protection? What?

    You honestly think and 70 pound kid with a 3 inch blade is going to fend off 180 pound adult attacker or even any wild animal attack .
    By the time the kid got the knife out of his pocket it would have already been done and over with.

    Gimmie a break, if you were properly teaching your kids how to handle a knife they would know there was a time and place for them and school trips and functions are not it.
    This is not a new rule!
     
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  11. Apr 28, 2013 #31 of 110
    trh

    trh This Space for Sale

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    No one said that he took the knife for protection. He was going on a week-long camping trip (and his stepmother was present during the trip as one of the chaperones).

    Probably took it so he could make a fishing pole like Huckleberry Finn.
     
  12. Apr 28, 2013 #32 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    The parents are more irresponsible for letting a kid take the knife. The parents probably ignored the rules from the parent handbook, now they're all up in arms over a clear rule violation. Maybe he snuck the knife, but if his Dad or Stepmother (who was on the school trip with him), then they're even more irresponsible.
     
  13. Apr 28, 2013 #33 of 110
    damondlt

    damondlt New Member

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    I didn't say he took it for protection, my post was quoting a comment about carring pocket knives at 8 and 10 years old.. Hence the reason for the quote post.
     
  14. Apr 28, 2013 #34 of 110
    MysteryMan

    MysteryMan Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    You people are amazing with how narrow minded you are. You're all focused on a knife being used as a weapon and nothing more. Talk about being paranoid! :nono2: Ever hear of a Boy Scout Knife? It's a mini version of a Swiss Army Knife. Both are "combination tools" that come with a 3" blade. That three inch blade has many functions as a cutting tool (cord/rope cutter, wire stripper, paper cutter, box opener, peeler, wood carving, ect.). I'm in my sixties. I have yet to hear of someone being attacked with a Boy Scout Knife, Swiss Army Knife, or a Leatherman Tool.......Get a grip!
     
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  15. Apr 28, 2013 #35 of 110
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    A lot of supposition in that post for a person who wants clear cut rules to follow. We probably maybe need to stick to the facts.

    I believe the punishment was too harsh. It is an overreaction just like the other examples given (eg: expelling a child over a aspirin). If possession of a small knife designed for camping/utility use on a trip where the use of such a tool would be arguably appropriate leads to suspension then possession of a similar object should lead to being barred from flying on the day the object is discovered at a TSA checkpoint (or being added to the no-fly list). It is only fair.

    The logic battle between "zero-tolerance" high penalty rules and teaching "tolerance" in the same schools does not end well.
     
  16. Apr 28, 2013 #36 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/04/07/20110407Mesa-swiss-army-knife-attack-abrk0407.html - Police: Mesa man admits stabbing father 50 times with Swiss army knife.

    WARNING: GRAPHIC PICTURES - A Swiss Army knife and a screwdriver protrude from a man's torso in the footage - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1022618/Gruesome-ad-campaign-showing-bloody-stab-victims-launched-Government-curb-knife-crime.html#ixzz2RmauCkzG

    Not a stabbing, but a dangerous situation - http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/245382/1/8-year-old-classmate-pulled-a-Swiss-Army-Knife-out-and-threatened-to-stab-another

    8-year-old classmate pulled a Swiss Army Knife out and threatened to stab another - http://www.digtriad.com/news/article/245382/1/8-year-old-classmate-pulled-a-Swiss-Army-Knife-out-and-threatened-to-stab-another

    New Rochelle Doctor Stabbed with Swiss Army Knife at Home on Kensington Oval Said to be "Clinging to Life" - http://www.newrochelletalk.com/node/1432

    MCSO jail officer a suspect in father's stabbing - "a detention officer at the Maricopa County Durango Jail is suspected of stabbing his father, Curtis Joe, 55, with a Swiss Army knife." http://www.kpho.com/story/22046061/mcso-jail-officer-a-suspect-in-fathers-stabbing

    Jaigobin put his hand out to bid farewell to Singh, but instead of a hand, the former pledge got a Swiss Army knife to the gut, the police report stated. - http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/Founder-of-Beta-Chi-Fraterity-Stabs-Former-Pledge-Brother-122607429.html

    A Miami woman accused of stabbing her husband with a Swiss Army knife broke down in screaming hysterics - http://what-time-is.com/blaze/woman-accused-of-stabbing-her-husband-goes-absolutely-hysterical-after-being-denied-bond/

    A homeless man stabbed with a Swiss Army knife near Boston’s Financial District - http://www.suffolkdistrictattorney.com/press-office/press-releases/press-releases-2012/one-charged-in-financial-district-stabbing/
     
  17. Apr 28, 2013 #37 of 110
    Laxguy

    Laxguy Honi Soit Qui Mal Y Pense.

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    Way over the top, unless the kid was threatening someone or bragging about having it.

    Perhaps the OP could append a poll?
     
  18. Apr 28, 2013 #38 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    If there's a specific law stating that bringing a knife to the airport results in being on the no fly list, then yes. However, why are we discussing no fly lists when you're wanting to focus on facts? Hypothetical airport scenarios have nothing to do with facts.
     
  19. Apr 28, 2013 #39 of 110
    James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    It is not a hypothetical. It is a comparison between the overly harsh penalty given to a 5th grader vs the penalty given to an adult for committing the same offense. Taking an object some consider a weapon where a rule prevents it.

    If the actual penalties (no hypothetical) given to children who break "zero-tolerance" rules were applied to airport travel we would be sending people home instead of allowing them to fly (suspension) or putting them on the no-fly list (expulsion). It is called extending the logic.
     
  20. Apr 28, 2013 #40 of 110
    sigma1914

    sigma1914 Well-Known Member DBSTalk Club

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    Ok, let's extend logic with this situation and not airport hypotheticals. What about my comments earlier about the kid taking a gun, axe, machete or saw? All are extremely useful when spending time in nature. Those should be handled the same as you suggest right? Have a "teachable moment" with no harsh penalty right?

    It's silly to try and compare school rules with children to adults in other realms of society.
     

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