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Abused Iraqi prisoner photos spark world outrage

Discussion in 'The OT' started by John Corn, May 1, 2004.

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  1. May 11, 2004 #61 of 192
    Bogy

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    I don't know how many times I have read the Bible by now. I've only read the whole thing cover to cover once or twice, but some parts I've read a whole lotta times. But I still keep finding new ways of looking at what it says. I've been preaching for about 25 years now, yet I keep coming up with new things to say, although I repeat a lot of the old things once in a while. :D

    I've also read the Lord of the Rings about 15 times. Yet I still find it enjoyable, still like to talk with others about it, and learn from it. I'd hate to have such a deficient imagination that I could only find one way of looking at things.
     
  2. May 11, 2004 #62 of 192
    Danny R

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    Back to the original topic:

    While its impossible to say if they would have done this anyway, the primary reason why the US should NEVER torture prisoners and others is illustrated in the most recent attrocity:

    American beheaded in Iraq, captors threaten more

    Our poor treatment of prisoners just urges our enemies to do more things like this.

    Again, its likely they may have done so anyway, but then again they might not have. We gave them incentive to up the ante.
     
  3. May 11, 2004 #63 of 192
    Richard King

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    Ask Danny Pearl about whether they would have done it anyway. Oops, I forgot, you can't because he had been previously beheaded. Ok, ask those hung from the bridge and set on fire. Oops, sorry, can't do that either. They don't need an excuse to be "abusive". If, in fact, they did this because of the pictures that they saw, which I don't think they did, the blame lies with those who made the pictures public as much as it does with those perpetrating the prison atrocities. In fact, the blame lies only with those who did the act of beheading this person.
     
  4. May 11, 2004 #64 of 192
    waydwolf

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    None of this is abuse much less torture. This is a lost weekend at an Amsterdam sex club with a bottle of Jagermeister. There are people in San Francisco going, "to think I have to pay someone to tie me up in a hood..."
     
  5. May 11, 2004 #65 of 192
    RichW

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    Yeah I heard that joke on Leno as well.

    But the reality is that the actions were inexcusible. If another country did it to our people we would be incensed.
     
  6. May 12, 2004 #66 of 192
    Bogy

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    And of course Rumsfeld has promised there is worse to come, not to mention the cases of dead prisoners that are being investigated.
     
  7. May 12, 2004 #67 of 192
    jonstad

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    Perhaps we can dig up some Marie Antoinette knee slappers?:nono2:

    None of this is funny. The world is going backwards. We're caught up in a cycle of revenge and retribution the likes of which has never been seen, at least not on such a global scale. 9/11 happens. Before you know it we're invading countries willy-nilly with little forethought apparently as much as anything to make it look like we're doing something, even less thought about the aftermath or actually bringing to justice those responsible for 9/11. Then of course the aftermath DOES come, like it always does. At least part of the aftermath is piles of naked Iraqis, electrodes, hoods, attack dogs, leashes and giggling, cretinous, finger-pointing National Guardsmen. Because they're offended we've temporarily taken the spotlight for crudeness, al Qaida opts for a home video of grotesquely hacking off someone's head while chanting "God is Great".

    What's next? How can we top this? Should we nuke Basra? After all, we've got to put our foot down and show we won't be defeated in the revenge/retribution arena until "Mission Accomplished!"

    I don't have a solution. And I doubt if John Kerry or anybody else does either. But we've got to start moving in a different direction. We are sinking deeper and deeper into this morass and our morals and ethics are sinking with them.

    Almost three years coming up on 9/11 now. We haven't caught Osama or Mullah Omar or, with apologies to scumbags everywhere, this scumbag Zawahiri either. We have caught Saddam. And suddenly, he's not looking so bad, almost "moderate". What say we dust him off, put the statue back up and leave by the back door. I imagine even some Iraqis are pining for the "good ol' days" right about now.
     
  8. May 12, 2004 #68 of 192
    Nick

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    The...
    We "embarrass" and "humiliate" a few of the bad guys - murderers and terrorists - and the world is outraged?

    They decapitate, burn and hang innocent, non-combatant American civilians and the world is silent?

    Go figure... :shrug:

    IMO, the "world" sucks big time. Our dot in the Universe is a seriously f---ed up place.
     
  9. May 12, 2004 #69 of 192
    Richard King

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    Revenge and retribution had NOTHING to do with the beheading of this person. It is just more of the same, animals acting like animals.
     
  10. May 12, 2004 #70 of 192
    Danny R

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    don't need an excuse to be "abusive".

    ...

    Revenge and retribution had NOTHING to do with the beheading of this person. It is just more of the same, animals acting like animals.


    I agree 100%. I didn't mean to imply we brought this on ourselves. The terrorists would likely have killed the man anyway.

    However what we have done is give them ammunition to use against us. We've given them propoganda they can use to sway those who might otherwise have stayed out of it. Basically we've given aid and comfort to the enemy as much as any Jane Fonda demonstration could ever have done.

    Am I saying we should we have kept the pictures hidden? Absolutely not. But the abuse should never have happened. For many people, we can no longer claim the moral high ground.

    We "embarrass" and "humiliate" a few of the bad guys - murderers and terrorists - and the world is outraged?

    Because we claim we don't do those things. Lacking WMD's and an immediate threat, what is the last excuse we used to go into Iraq? Because we would stop the torture and rape rooms and human rights abuses. Now even that excuse has proven tainted.

    And while the pictures show us embarrassing and humiliating a few guys, lets not forget that there are dead bodies as well.
     
  11. May 12, 2004 #71 of 192
    Strong

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    Isn't Iraq still considered a war zone? Doesn't our State Dept still advise US 'civilians' to get the hell out???

    That guy that was decapitated was held by the US military weeks before (his family filed a lawsuit for his release!) and ordered to leave the country. He chose to stay in the war zone.

    Those men that were burned and hanged were reportedly armed ex spec ops doing 'security 'work. I don't think they were exactly innocent, non-combatant American civilians.

    If we were invaded, and fought our invaders, would we be considered murderers and terrorists?
     
  12. May 12, 2004 #72 of 192
    HappyGoLucky

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    Ah, the "kill the messenger" attitude. Priceless. Commit all the attrocities you want, rape and pillage and torture. Mame at will. Just don't get caught at it and it'll all be OK. Wink-wink we won't tell. If we don't see it, it didn't happen.

    That reasoning is just as dispicable as any attrocity done by the terrorists and insurgents. The fact that it is our people doing it makes it even more dispicable.
     
  13. May 12, 2004 #73 of 192
    HappyGoLucky

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    Trying to sell democracy and freedom using torture and humiliation as marketing tools doesn't seem to be working.
     
  14. May 12, 2004 #74 of 192
    Bogy

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    We are trying to establish democracy in Iraq, and hope it then spreads though out other Muslim nations. How do we do it? We show the world what we think of Muslim men. We dehumanize and humiliate them. We pose them in sexual positions. We have a young woman point at and laugh at their sexual equipment and tell her she's doing a great job. We tie a dog leash around an Iraqi man and have the woman hold the other end, dragging around the naked Muslim man. If you don't see this is the epitome of what Hate Crimes are all about you just don't get it. We didn't just humiliate a few "bad guys" in prison (many of the detainees don't seem to have done anything more than to be in the wrong place at the wrong time anyway), we humiliated every Iraqi/Muslim man. We humiliated ever Muslim man in the Middle East when we showed what we thought of them and their religion.

    Oh yeah, we really struck a blow for democracy and against terrorism this time. Could we please try to go a few months without providing al Qaida with more recruiting material?
     
  15. May 12, 2004 #75 of 192
    RichW

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    Look, this is war! The same type of atrocities have been committed in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. We have a nice antiseptic term for it when we do it - "collateral damage", but innocent people die just the same.

    When you are at war you just have to take the bad with the bad!
     
  16. May 12, 2004 #76 of 192
    Richard King

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    Learn to read.
     
  17. May 12, 2004 #77 of 192
    Richard King

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    Ah, so NOW you are generalizing the acts of a few out of control wackos to the American population in general. Good move. :rolleyes:
     
  18. May 12, 2004 #78 of 192
    Bogy

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    As the reservists who were involved (and their lawyers) begin to talk, what they are saying is that those in command ordered these pictures to be taken, and a young woman was used, specifically because it would humiliate the Muslim men. It may not be a few out of control wackos who were doing this. It may be the American leadership. And face it, this is how the world sees it. Much as we don't like it, these soldiers represented us. That is why we should be mad as hell.
     
  19. May 12, 2004 #79 of 192
    freakmonkey

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  20. May 12, 2004 #80 of 192
    Danny R

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    That guy that was decapitated was held by the US military weeks before (his family filed a lawsuit for his release!) and ordered to leave the country. He chose to stay in the war zone.

    Not quite true.

    Cnn reports:
    Where is the world outrage over these photos?

    Iraqi officials are calling the folks psychopaths. I'm not certain why you think there isn't outrage over this.
     
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