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Adding HR-34 to Complex Setup - Assistance Needed

Discussion in 'DIRECTV HD DVR/Receiver Discussion' started by HofstraJet, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    That makes sense, and you've got the basics.
     
  2. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Installer is here and he is completely perplexed. This is going to be a long day....
     
  3. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Might want to show him the "approved" install, in post #21.
     
  4. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Thanks, VOS. Good idea!

    Installer wants to put a 6x8 from the dish before the SWM16s in the attic to tie the whole home together. Would that work instead of the diplexers?
     
  5. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    First, those aren't diplexers but power passing splitters.
    The WB68 shouldn't be used in place of the correct splitters.
    While it will work, since it's a switch, it can fail, where splitters don't.

    The diagram is approved by DirecTV, aka that's the way they want this job done.
     
  6. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    He doesn't seem interested in the approved method with splitters. It is easy enough for me to fix when he leaves. When I was talking about diplexers, I meant for the CCK connection to be diplexed in before the SWM splitters. Without those diplexers, is there any other way to tie the two SWM16s together aside from the 6x8 he is using?
     
  7. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Sounds like it's time to simply "let him do his thing", and hope he gets it to work.

    "Then" you can sort it out after he leaves.

    If he must use the WB68, so be it and get the two SWiM-16s installed.
    Try to have him NOT USE 8-way splitters, but at this point, screw it and just get him to do what he's going to.
     
  8. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    He needs to install a CCK on each SWiM-16 and connect them to your router/network.
     
  9. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Thanks. My sentiments exactly. He is installing two SWM16s in the attic and only using 4 ways, so I can fix the rest. Thanks for the speedy responses and assistance.
     
  10. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    See if he'll leave a spare 4-way for you.
     
  11. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Installer: "there is no way to have the receivers on one SWM16 see the receivers on the other SWM for whole-home, but I can't understand why the internet isn't working on some of the receivers but not the others."

    Me (trying to be as polite as possible): "You need a second CCK on the other SWM16 because if it can't see the other receivers, it won't see the internet that is connected to that SWM"

    Installer: "No, one CCK per house is all you need. Even though the MRV won't work, the internet will spread across the house."

    Ugh!!!!!!
     
  12. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    So where do you stand now?

    "We" should have known this would happen as your setup is way over the top for most installers.
     
  13. inkahauts

    inkahauts Well-Known Member

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    Put the DIRECTV Wired Broadband Internet Connection Kit on the swim that doesn't have the HR34 and then plug the HR34 into your home network directly. That would have gotten rid of him... He also would have gone nuts in trying to understand why all the receivers could see each other. :)
     
  14. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Sorry for the late update, but it has been a while cleaning up after the installer left and fell asleep I was so tired. He arrived 9:45 AM, left at 5:30 PM. There were good parts and bad parts, but unfortunately more bad parts, most of which I found after he left.

    The Good

    The installer was very professional, went through what he was going to do, and ultimately did what I needed him to. When we were first discussing what to do, I explained how I wanted it set up and showed him the images in this thread. He had a puzzled look and said that is not how it is done. He had his way and that was the way he was doing it. I said "OK, do what you have to and I will just fix it after you leave." He then said he wouldn't do any work if I was going to modify it after he left. I wryly smiled and sarcastically said while laughing "I never said I was going to modify anything. Did you hear me say I was going to modify anything?" He didn't get the joke and was all serious and said "But you just said...." and I responded that I would trust his judgment to do it right. :sure: He also refused to connect more than 10 DVRs for MRV. Said it wouldn't work so he couldn't justify setting up a DECA for anything above 10. :nono: I knew I was in for a long day.

    Here is a picture of the SWM installation in the attic (those boards used to hold my old Spaun cascading setup - (OT, but what a waste of money considering how short-lived it was).

    [​IMG]

    Large Image

    The prior WB16 I had in the attic was just left on the floor by the prior installer and you will soon see what ended up happening because of that. So, as you can see in the picture, he used the 6x8 to split the dish feeds to the two SWM16s instead of using the splitters that were already there splitting the signal to the two WB16s. It looks very nice and I am very happy with the way he mounted and ran the cables (he used all of my existing cables from the Spaun setup and used black quad-shielded RG6 for one switch and white regular RG6 for the other). But after making that look so nice, he then just left the power inserters sitting on the attic floor on the insulation. Can't explain why since he seemed pretty meticulous in the rest of the SWiM mounting. The mysteries of life..... :confused:

    When he installed the HR34, I had a set of cables (analog audio, optical audio, coax, and HDMI) from the last DVR that was there and asked him to use those. He said he just connects HDMI. Uhh, Ok then.... :rolleyes:

    And, he insisted that he had to remove all of the OTA cables connected to the boxes since they are incompatible with SWiM as they work on the same frequency. I explained that as long as they are not diplexed, which they are not, it would work fine and OTA has nothing to do with SWiM. He refused to listen and just unscrewed all of my OTA cables from the boxes. He was then seemingly perplexed as to how to get the CCK connected and I don’t know why. I explained that I have an access point in the garage less than 20 feet away from the SWMs which he could plug into. He insisted that the CCK must be connected DIRECTLY to the modem or it will not work. We went back and forth on networking, etc. but he insisted it wouldn't work any other way. So, he installed it in the office where the modem is. He then stated that the QuickPorts I use in the wallplates to terminate the coax in each room would not pass the necessary signals. I said "why don't we try first" but he said that his training had taught him to replace all barrel connectors ("MRV DECA works on 3 GHz and the old barrels don't allow the signal to pass" "But they are rated for 3 GHz and I don't think the frequency is that high anyway" "No, the barrel color is wrong. Are you familiar with MOCA? It is a very complex system." I just rolled my eyes and gave in). So he had to make the switch meaning he had to get behind all of the furniture to remove each wallplate and put his barrel connectors on (he left the wallplates half-open (top screw only) with the wire coming out of the bottom of the box) and shoved the furniture back in front of it). This was a major time-waster.

    So, now we have the SWM16s installed in the attic and the lines in each room ready for install. As the majority of my boxes are HR20s, the tech had to, in his words, "make a rig" for them (i.e., install a DECA) which he was none too pleased about. I volunteered to get behind each unit and install them but he said it was complicated and that he had to do it himself. He installed the DECAs and then ran through the setup on each box, completely confused as to why the internet wasn't connecting on the boxes on the non-CCK’d SWiM16. I told him he needed a second CCK and he said “no, just one per house.” After some back and forth, he reluctantly plugged one in and waited all of 30 seconds and said “it’s not getting a network signal.” I noted that the first CCK took a few minutes to go all green and he said it should be near instantaneous. He unplugged the CCK and we went back and forth discussing and I said "just plug the HR34 into the switch and it will work as it has a CCK built-in." He said "it won't, but I will try anyway." He tried and it worked and he said "well that's not what we were taught. You should see the internet but not get On Demand" I asked what the difference was and he mumbled something unintelligible. He advised that I wouldn't be able to see all of the DVRs everywhere and sometimes DVRs will randomly disappear from the network – “that's just the way it is."

    Overall, I think he meant well, but was a little undertrained. So anyway, he finished up, everything worked (or so I thought), and he left as I told him I would finish cleaning up the boxes and moving the last of the furniture back. That's when the fun really began.

    The Bad and the Ugly

    So I start cleaning up and found several very disturbing facts. First, instead of finding the existing cables that went to each DVR in the MBR and home theater that had a local multiswitch, he just ran new cables from the splitter to each box. In doing so, he just unscrewed the existing BBC and unplugged the ethernet cable and left them right next to the box - didn't bother pulling out the cables or removing the BBCs. So instead of having one cable per DVR back there, there were three - two from the legacy switch and one for the SwiM. Made for a huge excess of unnecessary cables. Also, to make room for the DECAs, he just pushed other cables aside either not realizing or not caring that he was disconnecting other cables (audio mostly which I realized when checking each receiver - when I checked when he was here, we just checked video assuming no changes to anything else audio should work fine as well). So, not only did I have to pull out all of the old cables and BBCs, I had to trace and reconnect multiple disconnected cables. Also, each room with more than one DVR has a 4 port splitter with no terminators. When I went into the attic to disconnect the 6x8 and reinstall splitters, I found more interesting stuff. Previously, all of the lines in the attic were connected to the WB16. I asked him to leave whatever wasn't connected to the SWiM connected to the WB16 so I don't have a bunch of loose wires up there as there are numerous unconnected cables that I wanted to keep separate as they are for rooms with no TV. Here's what I got instead:

    [​IMG]

    (that's my power screwdriver and you can see the power inserters on the floor as well as some of the old Spaun splitters).

    Large Image

    I mounted the power inserters properly and made sure none of the wires touch the SWiM multiswitches as they were pretty hot. I then found that when plugging in the power inserters in the attic, he just unplugged power to the OTA amplifier for no apparent reason - there was plenty of cable and room on the power strip. He also used a bunch of barrel connectors in the attic and I'm not sure why since it seems he could have plugged some of those right into the SWiM16- will have to investigate that further tomorrow but it seems like instead of installing a splitter in the attic, he used several existing cables to send back a line from a room with a 4-way to send to another room. Seems like a lot of excess cable length (but he didn't run them, so that wasn't an issue for him). Not sure what he gained aside from using one or two less splitters (though some of the 4 ways could have been 2 ways or had no splitter at all). So, all in all, I wasted a bunch of time with the tech but got what I needed in the end. I can easily fix what is wrong.

    Now, here are my questions:

    1) Is that stuff about the barrel connectors accurate? I thought MOCA operated at much lower frequency.

    2) How much signal will I gain with an amplifier/polarity locker as illustrated in the Solid Signal white papers? I live in S Florida and rain fade is an occasional issue even with mid-high 90s on my signal strength. Will the numbers go up or will it just be a better quality signal at the same strength that is more resistant to rain fade?

    3) Theoretically, if I have the HR34 on one SWiM16 connected to my ethernet network and a CCK on the other SWiM16, shouldn't I see all of the DVRs in the house everywhere? I previosuly had MRV using ethernet only and it worked fine. I plan on going the diplexer route, but I would think this would work just as well. The list of networked DVRs in the setup screens only show a few, but the playlist looks like all oft them are there – is there a known issue with that list not being complete? I vaguely recall reading something about that during a CE release.

    4) Are the SwiM16s suitable for installation in a hot attic in S Florida? They were really hot when I touched them - not sure if the WB16 was ever that hot. Not that it matters since D* will replace, but I don't want to be bothered if it will be frequently - maybe smaller switches run cooler?

    Thanks everyone, especially VOS, for all of your assistance. :righton: I don't spend nearly as much time on here or doing CEs as I used to, but I always appreciate that everyone is so willing to help when assistance is needed.
     
  15. HofstraJet

    HofstraJet Legend

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    Coral...
    Very prescient of you since that is exactly what ended up happening. :lol:
     
  16. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    There isn't a signal above 2 GHz, and MoCa/DECA is in the 550 MHz range.
    The whole barrel thing is merely a QA follow up inspection thing. They walk through, see the right color [which doesn't change the frequency BTW] and move on.
    A locker merely adds/boosts the voltage to the LNB, which isn't needed unless the lines are long. Zero impact on rainfade. For that matter an amp won't have any effect either unless the coax between the dish and the SWiMs is [again] very long.

    Yes the HR34 is the only receiver that can also bridge the DECA network to your router, like a CCK does.
     
  17. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    I suspect this is related to the installer's comment about MRV not working with more than 10 DVRs.
     
  18. HoTat2

    HoTat2 Hall Of Fame

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    A "10 DVR limit?" :confused:

    Has their been a change to the DECA network's capability or something?

    I thought the installer was just misinformed?

    Isn't a DECA node a DECA node whether its a STB receiver or HD-DVR, and they both appear as a single node point in the cloud and will work in any combination up to a limit of 16?
     
  19. Doug Brott

    Doug Brott Lifetime Achiever DBSTalk Club

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    Various Combinations applicable to a maxed out install w/SWM 16 (off the top of my head):

    [table]CCK|H2x|Hx2x|HR34|Tuners|Network Nodes
    0|16|0|0|16|16
    1|15|0|0|15|16
    1|14|1|0|16|16
    1|13|1|0|15|15
    1|12|2|0|16|15
    1|11|2|0|15|14
    1|11|0|1|16|13
    1|10|3|0|16|14
    1|10|0|1|15|12
    1|9|3|0|15|13
    1|9|1|1|16|12
    1|8|4|0|16|13
    1|7|4|0|15|12
    1|6|5|0|16|12
    1|5|5|0|15|11
    1|4|6|0|16|11
    1|3|6|0|15|10
    1|3|4|1|16|9
    1|2|7|0|16|10
    1|1|7|0|15|9
    1|0|8|0|16|9
    [/table]

    The highest number of DVRs in that configuration is 8.
     
  20. veryoldschool

    veryoldschool Lifetime Achiever Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    First a setup like this is pushing the limits of a few things, that weren't high on DirecTV's priority list.

    The DECA node limit is 16, and a 5 tuner DVR is still only one node.

    Each SWiM section has a 8 tuner limit.

    The software does seem to have not been optimized for MRV with DVRs over 10. Playlists do seem to get shared, but under the whole home menu, not all show up.

    The combined [diplexed] DECA networking has been tested to work, but has yet to be tested/tried with 10+ DVRs.
     

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