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Any word on the 222/422?

Discussion in 'General DISH™ Discussion' started by CoreyH, Feb 19, 2006.

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  1. CoreyH

    CoreyH Cool Member

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    At the last team summit E* said they were working on a 2-tuner HD-capable receiver. It was obvious from speaking with E* engineers that they were not as far along on that box as they were the 211/411/622.

    Has anyone heard rumblings of when this might ship?

    Obviously E* is not going to light up all 210 markets with HD LIL (and unfortunately it now looks like E* is not even going to light all 210 SD markets). So the 422 (is that what they are calling it) is a key part of E*'s future hardare lineup.

    In my primary market (which is one that apparently isn't getting SD locals) the 422 would be a great solution. For $6 subs can pay the no-HD fee (and presumable another $6 if they get a 2nd 422) and get SD locals with EPG data without having to switch back and forth between OTA and Dish signal.
     
  2. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    No rumblings lately. It will be a ViP-222, the design is a cross between the ViP-211 and the ViP-622. Not exactly a "622 without storage" but close.

    I wonder how much of a need there is for the 222. People need a 211 or a 622 at each HD set (no receiver's TV2 output is HD). The benefits to the 222 would be limited to PIP without DVR features and seeing downconverted HD on TV2 (unlike the SD only 322s). I see people gravitating toward the 211 for each HD set or the 622 if they want a DVR. The 222 niche seems small.

    I suspect it will be out later in the year when the hoopla over the 211 and 622 dies down and there is more demand for seeing HD downconverted on another set.
     
  3. derwin0

    derwin0 Icon

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    I wouldn't mind one. It would allow me to run an hd television along with another SD television without the $5 extra receiver fee. Save $60/year with that.
     
  4. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I'm not saying that there is no market - just that the market is limited and there doesn't seem to be a huge demand like for the 622 and 211. I'm looking forward to the introduction as well, but other than the demo at CES it hasn't been mentioned.
     
  5. julesism

    julesism Legend

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    I'd love one too... Get rid of our 811 + 301 :)
     
  6. CoreyH

    CoreyH Cool Member

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    If E* has indeed decided not to launch SD locals in some of the remaining unlit 44 markets based on economics (as it appears they have done in at least my primary DMA) there is demand simply for the ATSC tuner.

    Even an enhanced 322 (basically a 322 with an added ATSC tuner) would be a solution for any of the remaining 44 markets where E* has decided not to launch SD locals based on the economics of the market. The cost of electronics for an ATSC tuner is about $40.

    I believe E*'s main competitive advantage over D* and cable is economics. Dish programming is cheaper ($19.99 for Family, $29.99 for Top60 - cable nor D* can touch these) and two-tuner settops further the economic advantage. If E* can provide ATSC locals for an added SAC (subscriber acquisition cost) of $40 (plus the retailer either subsidizing or selling an OTA antenna and amplifier) they have a chance at competing with cable and D*.
     
  7. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    I dispute your claim that E* has abandoned any market. Markets have not been added for a while because they are waiting for E10. The floodgates will open in a couple of months.

    Since the 222 will only have one ATSC tuner (for TV1) the better choice for markets without satellite locals or with local stations that refuse to be carried by E* would be a 211 in each room. (Unless E* gets creative and adds a second ATSC tuner.)
     
  8. larrystotler

    larrystotler Hall Of Fame DBSTalk Gold Club

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    I have serious doubts about E* adding DMA 181(I think), Harrisonburg, VA. It only has 2 stations, ABC-3 and PBS-51(Front Royal Channel 42). They should just be allowed to merge these 2 or 3 counties with either DC or Charlottesville and remove it as a DMA. Heck, Moorefield, WV is further from DC than Harrsionburg, and it gets DC locals. If I am not mistaken, Franklin does as well.
     
  9. Fifty Caliber

    Fifty Caliber Banned User

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    Yeah, there are a few other DMA's that I think need to be merged/eliminated. The list could be reduced from 210 to 200.
     
  10. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    The one or two stations DMAs are even easier than the others (as long as E* has a place where they can pick up the signals). They might even be able to use SV stations from a neighboring DMAs that are already uplinked to fill out the lineup.
     
  11. CoreyH

    CoreyH Cool Member

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    You are still in denial about what I posted previously. E* told me in no uncertain terms they aren't lighting 152 because the economics don't work. This has been confirmed by my E* distributor (after I told them - they called E* to confirm). E10 has nothing to do with it (unfortunately).

    As an aside - I think E* is on crack thinking the economics don't work when they are giving up $5/sub by not offering locals and will no doubt bleed a ton of customers to D* once it becomes widely known that E* abandonded plans to light 152 LIL.

    It stands to reason that if E* is abandoning a DMA that large - they're also abandoning other DMAs. I believe E* has done a 180 and is going to use E10 bandwidth to bring in superdish and wing stations - and use most of the balance of capacity for HD LIL.

    I understood at team summit that the ATSC tuner could be viewed on either TV1 or TV2 but not both simultaneously. Perhaps E* changed their spec. I agree with you that a second ATSC tuner would be useful - and made the case for it to E* engineers last June. E* engineering seemed surprised that the 811 required a subscription to HD programming to get (as they also suggested putting a 811 at each TV).
     
  12. AcuraCL

    AcuraCL Godfather

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    Maybe when people have more than one HD set, I'd agree, but most people don't even have one, and far fewer of them have more than one HD set.

    This is actaully a receiver I'd be very interested in, with one HD set and one mostly backup SD set.
     
  13. grooves12

    grooves12 Godfather

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    It seems pretty clear to me that the economics likely DON'T make sense... the #152 DMA has a population of 142,000... if you figure based on Dish's market share of about 10%, that they would have 14,000 customers... and not ALL of them would opt for the $5/mo extra for locals when they can get them free OTA... you are looking at about 10,000 customers. That is $50,000 month... and the cost of retransmitting the stations, and including the cost of lost bandwidth by adding them it would likely be a money loser to add the stations. The bandwidth would be better spent on another National HD channel which would garner more national subscribers in higher tier packages.
     
  14. James Long

    James Long Ready for Uplink! Staff Member Super Moderator DBSTalk Club

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    Then when they light '152' later this year you can post how E* lied to you. :rolleyes:
     
  15. CoreyH

    CoreyH Cool Member

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    Your 10% number is probably close, maybe closer to 15% as a LOT of this DMA is composed of rural customers that have no access to cable.

    90% of the DMA can't get decent OTA signal from at least 3 of the 4 major networks (Rochester and Mason City - the two largest cities - are far away from each other - and the broadcasters are not centrally located in the DMA).

    I think that E* is saying no to $75,000/mo in revenue just in locals - plus what they'll start losing in subs as people switch to D*. Locals are a big deal where you can't get watchable ota. People will switch - in mass.

    As to your bandwidth arguement - you are talking about conus capacity and spotbeam capacity like they are the same thing - they aren't. Dish seemingly is launching Minneapolis HD locals on 129 - so the "new" spotbeam covering Minnesota and Iowa won't be used for HD LIL there. I suppose E* could launch Des Moines HD LIL - but I doubt it. More likely I think the spotbeam will sit idle.
     
  16. CoreyH

    CoreyH Cool Member

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    I'll be happy to eat my words. I doubt I'll have to wait that long though. I am pretty sure at team summit in denver in 4 months I'll be able to speak with powers that be at E*. I'll show them my D* sales numbers -- see what they think.

    E* has the ability to change their mind - and I hope they do. I'll be watching closely over the next four months to see if E* does anything other than moving wings and superdishes onto E10 (and launching additional HD programming).
     
  17. Mike123abc

    Mike123abc Hall Of Fame/Supporter DBSTalk Gold Club

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    While I would really like to get a 222 (perfect guest room feed for second tuner, you can turn it on when you have guests and turn it to single mode for PiP when you do not), on the subject of DMA adding...

    Perhaps after Dish has finished all their shuffling of markets after E10 goes up they will fill out some of the smaller markets. They will have a ton of space on 105/121. 121 they own and 105 they have a lease until 2014 that they may as well use for something. Not to mention 85 which they have not started at all. I speculate they are waiting for the dust to settle and see what the demand is for HD LIL before they commit their satellite space to other things.

    It would be interesting if they decided not to add STDef LIL any more and only HD. It would end the need to simulcast, if they were to start adding small markets in HD only. Once the supply of HD receivers catches up and they discontinue the STDef ones, I could see them doing this. Why waste all the TPs on the small markets to simulcast? This appears to be what DIRECTV has hinted at... They have will have capacity to carry every market in HD why add new markets only to have to do it 2x in STDef?
     
  18. Fifty Caliber

    Fifty Caliber Banned User

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    I think they are also going to add more international channels to 61.5/121/148 since these are big money-makers for E* once the shuffling to comply with single dish rule is done.
     
  19. rhiggs

    rhiggs AllStar

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    I with you on that one. I cancelled the 622 hope for the 222 in the future.
     
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